Hall sensor configuration possibly causing C3 error?

[Nealh]

The central rotating part with plastic grippy teeth grab hold on the taper square axle for a firm fixing, the outer part remains in a fixed position and as you can see it has splines that are meant to locate into the BB shell face. At least 8mm gap is needed.

I have just noticed you don't have the V12L but the V6 dual hall model, only difference is it works off 6 pulses and not 12. C1 05 -07 should still be the setting to try.

 

[crystaljohn]

The central rotating part with plastic grippy teeth grab hold on the taper square axle for a firm fixing, the outer part remains in a fixed position and as you can see it has splines that are meant to locate into the BB shell face. At least 8mm gap is needed.

I have just noticed you don't have the V12L but the V6 dual hall model, only difference is it works off 6 pulses and not 12. C1 05 -07 should still be the setting to try.

I have tried the KT-V6 PAS Connected into the controller.
All clockwise turning on settings with C1 from 5-7 resulted in the C3 error.
Turning anticlockwise, no error, and also nothing happened

It appears that my KT-V6 isn't going to fit on the BB on the LHS , I can't remove the crank and chain wheel on the RHS to examine if it's possible to fit as I don't have a extractor tool.

 

[crystaljohn]

The throttle wasn't connected during the test btw.

 

[vfr400]

C3 error is hall sensor fault, nothing to do with PAS. If you get C£ everything is working except the controller is getting incorrect hall signals. If you already checked that the halls are switching correctly, there must be a fault on the cable somewhere. Test the hall signals where the wires are soldered to the controller if you can, or at least check continuity from there to the motor connector.

 

[crystaljohn]

Both the throttle and the PAS appear to initiate a signal to the controller to ask it to start the motor.

It appears that the KT controller doesn't like the way either the phases or Halls are configured on the Powacycle hub motor.

I presume there are variations on how the motor windings are set up on different hubs and how the Halls are set up, and there are no standard set ups, each manufacturer uses a different set up?

 

[crystaljohn]

C3 error is hall sensor fault, nothing to do with PAS. If you get C£ everything is working except the controller is getting incorrect hall signals. If you already checked that the halls are switching correctly, there must be a fault on the cable somewhere. Test the hall signals where the wires are soldered to the controller if you can, or at least check continuity from there to the motor connector.

My tests prove that the 3 Hall sensors are switching correctly. But I am concerned that the way they are configured in my Powabike's motor- with the center Hall in a different configuration from the outer Hall's, might this be a possibility that it's be out of kilter with the design of the KT controller.

I have tested the continuity of the Hall wiring so many times now, I understand how often the problem lies in the 6 way connector, but I am 100% confident that in my case it's good.

I have tested continuity when the Hub was disasembled from each of the 3 Hall legs to the controller side of the 6 way plug- all good.
the only thing I havn't done is take the cover off the controller and probe directly into where the wires are soldered ( presumably) onto the board.

 

[vfr400]

the only thing I havn't done is take the cover off the controller and probe directly into where the wires are soldered ( presumably) onto the board.

Well?

 

[crystaljohn]

Well, today I removed the motor from the rear wheel and for the umpteenth time checked the continuity directly from each leg of each hall sensor to the socket-all good.

I also removed the lid from the controller to check the wires were o.k.

I also phoned Powabikes to ask about the orientation of the Hall sensors, and was told this was the common layout for a 120' motor.

 

[crystaljohn]

I noticed that on the controller that was originally fitted in my Powabike - which was working perfectly before it stopped working suddenly, it states 60 degree on the label

 

[crystaljohn]

This seems strange as from what I have worked out 60' motors have the Hall sensors orientated the same way. For 120' motors the middle Hall sensor is reversed.

The middle Hall sensor reversed is how I found my sensors when I examined them prior to replacement.

To attempt to get my bike running I'm considering buying a controller without the need to use my KT LCD , just a straightforward one like the one that was originally in the bike . Anyone recommend something?

 

[vfr400]

These used to work just about any motor. they were fully automatic re phase and hall configuration. They have changed since the original version, but I don't know whether those changes have affected their versatility. Don't forget to order the LED panel.

 

[crystaljohn]

Do you have any recommendations for a fully automatic controller vfr400?

Also, I used SS41 Hall sensors to replace the existing sensors. These seem to be very commonly used, I'm not 100% sure they are compatible with the KT controller though?

The Hall sensors I replaced have the designation '512 WH5' I have googled that but unable to find any info .

 

[vfr400]

If the hall sensors are switching, they're fine. Sorry I forgot the link in my post above:

S-KU65 Controller for LED810 250W15A 6mosfets Controller LED No LED

S-KU65 Controller. It is suitable for all our 250W motor and Q100 Motor. This controller is compatible with 24V and 36V battery.

bmsbattery.com

 

[crystaljohn]

Thanks for that vfr400. the postage unfortunately is a bit steep, probably due to the Covid situation.
I was about to make up something to temporarily connect in the old Hall sensors I removed externally to the bike ( I got them out intact) to the controller, just as an experiment. But if as you say the new sensors are switching ok , then I won't bother.

 

[vfr400]

Postage cost is irrelevant. It's the overall cost that counts.

 

[crystaljohn]

I have some action with the motor now.

After a lot of thought I made a decision to change the configuration of the hall sensors.

The original set up had the middle Hall sensor in a reverse orientation to the outer Halls- my understanding is that this is for a 60' phase angle, so I stripped the motor for the umpteenth time and carefully managed to remove the sensor from the Araldite that I had used to fix it and refix it back into position in the same orientation as the outer halls, my understanding is that this configuration is for a 120' phase angle.

Switched on and when I turned the throttle I heard a rough noise and the wheel was trying to turn. Now no 03 error code showing on the display! Progress at long last.

Initially I thought the rough noise was an error I had possibly made whist reassembling the freewheel / planetary gear assembly so I stripped it all down again to check , couldn't find anything untoward so put it all back together and this time tried swapping the phase wires as I thought maybe the motor was turning the wrong way.
The third swap resulted in the motor spinning the wheel fast when the throttle was turned but when i lowered the bike onto the ground and tried riding it I realised it's still not right.
Now I will try all the 36 combinations with the aid of the chart previously suggested tomorrow.

 

[Nealh]

At least now you have a starting point John, hopefully you will find 3 or 4 combo's that work, make sure you try all 36.

 

[crystaljohn]

I was so pleased when the motor turned for the first time despite it not working correctly.
It means that at long last I have identified what the issue was.
I have spent so many hours determined to get to the bottom of this problem, I could take the motor apart with my eyes shut now.
I hope to be able to try all the connection combinations later with the aid of your chart.

 

[crystaljohn]

I have some action with the motor now.

After a lot of thought I made a decision to change the configuration of the hall sensors.

The original set up had the middle Hall sensor in a reverse orientation to the outer Halls- my understanding is that this is for a 60' phase angle, so I stripped the motor for the umpteenth time and carefully managed to remove the sensor from the Araldite that I had used to fix it and refix it back into position in the same orientation as the outer halls, my understanding is that this configuration is for a 120' phase angle.

Switched on and when I turned the throttle I heard a rough noise and the wheel was trying to turn. Now no 03 error code showing on the display! Progress at long last.

Initially I thought the rough noise was an error I had possibly made whist reassembling the freewheel / planetary gear assembly so I stripped it all down again to check , couldn't find anything untoward so put it all back together and this time tried swapping the phase wires as I thought maybe the motor was turning the wrong way.
The third swap resulted in the motor spinning the wheel fast when the throttle was turned but when i lowered the bike onto the ground and tried riding it I realised it's still not right.
Now I will try all the 36 combinations with the aid of the chart previously suggested tomorrow.

 

[crystaljohn]

Nealh

I have had success trying the 36 combinations.

3 combinations result in smooth running ( I have the rear wheel off the ground- haven't ridden the bike yet)

7 combinations result in the motor turning in the wrong direction.

the other combinations result in very rough sounding turning of the wheel.

What I would now like to know is which of the 3 combinations is the best?

I can't tell the difference visually or by listening.



Is there a way to measure the current flow on the 3 phases to obtain the optimum configuration?


Or should I take the bike for a ride and experiment with the 3 good combinations?