Kalkhoff Endeavour BS10 400Wh

[Artstu]

On the other hand, if your feeling brave, you could connect any battery of the correct voltage to a Bosch powered machine by following the advice in the link below.

CLICK HERE

It seems very tedious on that forum, or it's just google translate that makes it look that way.

 

[Wigan.PT]

Sorry for the delay, it took a while to find this thread on the German Pedelecs forum.

Please be aware, if you should attempt this modification, it's important to remember the Bosch system stores information which cannot be accessed by the owner. In the event of a warrantee claim, this stored data would show the system had been tampered with.

For this very reason, I would strongly advise purchasing a second Bosch battery as a way of extending the potential range. My own Haibike eQ Trekking was supplied with the 8ah size battery, which I found was good for around 30 miles in moderate terrain. I then purchased an additional 11ah battery from the German Ebay site for those occasional all-day expeditions.

On the other hand, if your feeling brave, you could connect any battery of the correct voltage to a Bosch powered machine by following the advice in the link below.

CLICK HERE

No I'm definitely not feeling brave so I will probably stick to Bosh.

My main reason for asking is that from what I can see I cant really buy a battery much bigger than the one fitted to this bike (I think the one on the new endeavour will fit and is slightly better but not much).

Do Bosh do a larger Ah battery that will fit and if so where can I buy one?

Thanks for your reply and forbearance with my ignorance

 

[Blew it]

To the best of my knowledge, 400 watt-hour is the largest battery available for the Bosch frame mount. The 300 and 400 batteries are indentical in physical dimensions, the latter constructed with higher density cells.

 

[kemi]

As flecc has already explained, it makes no difference where you place the magnet in relation to the rim. The surface speed of the rim is much faster than the hub, but it still takes exactly the same time for the rim and the hub to complete one revolution.

Oops, crossed with 50 Hertz

A 700c wheel moves at about 200 rpm at 25 Km/h. Since Bosch have disabled the cadence trick, couldn't you just splice a new cadence sensor into the existing grid, so that one would track the left and the other the right pedal arm ? A typical cyclist spins the pedal arms at sub 100 rpm, so if the computer rule was based on that assumption it should work.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

A 700c wheel moves at about 200 rpm at 25 Km/h. Since Bosch have disabled the cadence trick, couldn't you just splice a new cadence sensor into the existing grid, so that one would track the left and the other the right pedal arm ? A typical cyclist spins the pedal arms at sub 100 rpm, so if the computer rule was based on that assumption it should work.

When the Bosch motors first came out, that worked, but Bosch then changed their software so that it doesn't work anymore.

 

[Blew it]

.... so if the computer rule was based on that assumption it should work.

Probably ....but it would easier to fit the dongle. Personally, I just ride mine the way it was supplied.

It's interesting to note, over one of my regular twenty mile loops, my 26v Panasonic powered Kalkhoff Sahel always returns a 2-3 mph higher average speed compared to my Bosch powered Haibike Trekking. The reason being, I replaced the 18T Alfine hub sprocket with a 16T. The original reason for doing this was to match my utility style 50-60 rpm cadence to my prefered 16-17 mph cruising speed. An accidental consequence was the assistance now continues up to 19 mph, which again nicely matches my 72-75 rpm "sprint" cadence.

One day, I will get round to fitting a dongle to the Haibike. Both machines are fitted with high capacity batteries, so they are good for forty-five miles range at around one-to-one assistance level.

Have fun.
Bob

 

[SRS]

When the Bosch motors first came out, that worked, but Bosch then changed their software so that it doesn't work anymore.

Dave, I think that was with a single sensor outputting at 1 pulse per crank rotation. I suspect it is this scenario that the software is looking for and errors accordingly.

Adding an second sensor in parallel would double the frequency and by my way of thinking should work.

What do you think?

 

[flecc]

Dave, I think that was with a single sensor outputting at 1 pulse per crank rotation. I suspect it is this scenario that the software is looking for and errors accordingly.

Adding an second sensor in parallel would double the frequency and by my way of thinking should work.

What do you think?

If that worked it would halve your cutoff speed to about 8 mph tops!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Dave, I think that was with a single sensor outputting at 1 pulse per crank rotation. I suspect it is this scenario that the software is looking for and errors accordingly.

Adding an second sensor in parallel would double the frequency and by my way of thinking should work.

What do you think?

Sorry, I didn't read your post properly. It might work. Somebody would have to try it, but one of the pulses would still match the crank rotation, so, if that's what the software's looking for to throw a fault code, it'll be the same. If it calculates a wheel rotation speed, and compares that with the crank speed, or compares the number of pulses with those from the crank, it should work.

 

[bilabonic]

So where can i get an 'S' 350w BH Emotion ?

That would be my perfect icommuter i think.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Make your own for about £1000: You can get the 500w version of the motor for about £250, a 20aH battery for the same. A nice 500w controller with display for about £50, £50 covers you for just about everything else, so that's about £600 plus however much you want to spend on a donor bike. This one will blitz a 350w Neo on speed, climbing ability and distance. The donor bike only cost £90, but we added mudguards, chainguard, lights, mirrors and there's a full toolkit in that bag too.

 

[103Alex1]

Make your own for about £1000: You can get the 500w version of the motor for about £250, a 20aH battery for the same. A nice 500w controller with display for about £50, £50 covers you for just about everything else, so that's about £600 plus however much you want to spend on a donor bike. This one will blitz a 350w Neo on speed, climbing ability and distance. The donor bike only cost £90, but we added mudguards, chainguard, lights, mirrors and there's a full toolkit in that bag too.

^^ pretty much exactly what bilabonic already bought (bar the new-style controller with display). It's just the £50 covering everything else that .. er .. sometimes doesn't quite work out to plan ... !

 

[Deleted member 4366]

£50 normally covers my bikes; however, some people like to set more challenging targets. I seem to remember that yours was working quite well too with the £50 extras, but then somebody decided that they wanted to watch the TV while riding through the Blackpool Illuminations using their bike as the main attraction - or something like that.
Compare these two:

 

[103Alex1]

^^ Haha ... I was thinking more of this actually !



Yes, a lot of the cost was some niceties like built-in lighting and GPS chargers etc, which to me do add a great deal to the bike actually - but £50 is too much of an underestimate for most people not following that precise stripped down setup or without discounting the cost of tools and stock consumables necessary to build their own racks, do their own soldering and the like. Not that many people who don't build e-Bikes regularly would be able to pull it off for that imho.

You can easily add in quite a bit at Wickes/B&Q, Maplins or online suppliers otherwise. Also if your bike needs mechanical mods to be more appropriate for an eBike that's more ... it's got its downsides on cost/replacement/capacity but having the moulded in-frame battery on a Neo is a big attraction in principle (to some of us anyway).

 

[bilabonic]

Time/labour are a big factor for me personally.

I also like the look off the Kalkhoff Endeavour (again TOTALLY different with Bosch drive)!!!!

I also love the idea of adjusting the assistance given, does this work on both bikes via the PAS or is there a torque sensor of some kind.

When mine is 'finally' up and running i think it will be odd throttling and pedalling and trying to match/balance both, i will be looking for differing levels of assist eventually.

 

[103Alex1]

Time/labour are a big factor for me personally.

I also like the look off the Kalkhoff Endeavour (again TOTALLY different with Bosch drive)!!!!

I also love the idea of adjusting the assistance given, does this work on both bikes via the PAS or is there a torque sensor of some kind.

When mine is 'finally' up and running i think it will be odd throttling and pedalling and trying to match/balance both, i will be looking for differing levels of assist eventually.

The Endeavour has bosch system so works on triple sensors like Impulse - speed, torque (and cadence I think). With a tuning dongle it would be a very capable bike - but the battery capacity is a big issue with high assist speeds and imho you need 2 batteries for any sort of sensible distances if you want to run at high power assist levels (to start feeling a little closer to riding a 500W bike effort-wise).

So with the dongle about the same cost as a Chinese 500W kit with regular 20Ah battery components on top of a £2,795 bike. Plus very steep climbing will still require considerable rider effort to maintain any sort of decent speed.

However for £3.5k you get a lovely bike ready to ride, warranty, very high quality bike/build, decent display and a very intuitive ride.

You get used to the throttle thing but it's a blunt instrument really, is odd when changing gear or signalling and mainly feels like a superimposition of vehicle momentum alongside your own pedalling (if you pedal at all). To me it just feels like a scooter effect and does take a lot of practice to couple with any sort of normal cycling and still feel natural.

For the most natural feeling powerfully assisted riding experience in the widest range of conditions, a decent (preferably) crank drive bike with well-tuned torque sensors is the way to go. You just need to budget about 4 times the cost and be prepared to still work reasonably hard .. on occasion ! Riding a crank drive at high speeds on flat to moderate uphill means riding in high gears and even with assistance matching, extracting high performance involves relatively comfortable but meaningful effort... enough to get warm /sweaty over a few miles ... but for a great deal in in return for that effort.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Torque sensors and other multi-sensor systems are only necessary for crank-drive bikes. Throttles are useful for short bursts on hub-drive bikes, but tiresome and inefficient if that's all you have. You can get nice controllers with multi-level PAS and LCD displays for about £50, which is all you need for a hub-drive bike for comfortable efficient riding.Alternatively, a simple cruise control, like Saneagle's is equally as good.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[103Alex1]

Best thing to do as always is go ride one (if you're looking at 350W hub bikes then try to get a ride on a dongle'd bosch or other derestricted crank drive with torque sensor), and then judge for yourself what you think based on what you experience and how it feels to you.

I think you can play around with the components to get something closer to what's commercially available in a hub motor bike with a hub kit. Personally went down that route only because it was clear a crank build wasn't going to come close to the ride of a top end retail bike. However if you're thinking of buying a ready built then do try the better crank drive bikes and see for yourself, especially if you've no infirmity which makes a throttle a particular need.

 

[countryman663]

cheaper Kalkhoff Pro Connect BS10 10-G XT Bosch ?

ALex1

So with the dongle about the same cost as a Chinese 500W kit with regular 20Ah battery components on top of a £2,795 bike.

However for £3.5k you get a lovely bike ready to ride, warranty, very high quality bike/build, decent display and a very intuitive ride.

Saw this on on German Ebay for Euro 2100,£1750 ish: Could this be a cheaper starting point and make the modifications more financially viable (bearing in mind the moped/insurance/safety proviso's that have been raised at the start of this thread as well)
pedelec | eBay

 

[103Alex1]

Possibly ... although imho that 8Ah battery on a derestricted bike is as good as a waste of space and weight. 288Wh would just about get you 10 miles at push riding on steep hills or at high speed under higher assist levels and you'd probably have power sag towards the end of that short range. So you can go anywhere in about a 5-mile radius and straight home again. Whoopee doo ! Or drop the power assist levels (in which case why bother with a powerful motor - may as well save yourself the money and mod a £700 bike to slug it out at less than 1/2 the cost ! ).

2 x 12Ah 36V batteries = 800Wh. That should do an outing in a 17-18 mile radius and home again without a charge in high power assist modes riding fast or with a decent amount of steep (>15-16%) hills and obviously conserving power on the steep downhills where you'd get 25-30mph+ courtesy of gravity using high gears. The stock battery with that Pro Connect is only 288Wh.

I didn't mean the dongle alone was the same cost as an entire (good quality) 500W chinese hub motor & controller with 720Wh battery - rather a spare 12Ah 400Wh Bosch battery + a dongle would likely be about the same.