Kalkhoff Pro Connect Allround info needed battery and mode of operation

NeilP

Pedelecer
Sep 25, 2010
172
4
I have just acquired a Kalkhoff Pro Connecct Allround, without battery, from a local place that gives work to people with learning disabilities.
it was beyond what they knew what to do with so I took it away and gave them half a dozen other bikes i had been looking to get rid of.

Can anyone give me any info on these bikes as all the ones on the manufacturers site now seem to have model number liekm C 9-G or similar.

I am not familiar with this type of drive system.,.believe I read somewhere that is Panasonic.
It has a Shimano 8 speed internal Nexus rear hub and rim V-brakes.

I fed it 24 volts and the display showed the lowest voltage on the power indicator. 42 volt also gave the same low voltage indication. ???Odd. surely it is nto greater than 40 volt battery pack. so i am guessing either a fault or that third wire is playing a part in the display indication. (see pic below)

Assist does work, though the mode button although it does click does not change the mode level..it is stuck in the middle power setting.

Lights did work, but changing the rear bulb that was not working resulted in a short 'crack' from around the crank area, and then the front light went out..guessing a fuse..but can not see one. Before the lighting stopped working it was giving out 1.5 volts

Any one tell me what the correct voltage should be for the battery pack and what that third grey wire does.
Also any other info you can supply greatly appreciated.
Wiring schematic? motor type..brushed I am guessing?






Pro Connect Allrounder  007 (Medium).jpg Pro Connect Allrounder 004 (Medium).jpg Pro Connect Allrounder 006 (Medium).jpg Pro Connect Allrounder  005 (Medium).jpg
 
Last edited:

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
46,135
22,824
All the information you need is on my Panasonic support website, use the New Type Unit links, where you'll see the details of the battery connections in the battery technical details section. Please note the battery connection photo has the rear connection numbered 1, number 5 being at the front when looking at the left side of the bike. Looking at the receiving tray, the first connection blade at the bike front is for the positive, the second blade for the meter charge level indication to the handlebar unit, the third blade for the negative. When charging using the special charger, it uses that common negative but two other connections for the charge current and charge monitoring.

It uses a 26 volt lithium battery. The bike is a pedelec, power only issued when pedal force is applied to a pedal, the power then supplementing the rider effort.
.
 
Last edited:

50 Hertz

Pedelecer
Mar 6, 2013
172
2
This is all I could find on Panasonic batteries, perhaps flecc could confirm if it is suitable for your bike:

Panasonic AKKU 10 AH mit 80 km Reichweite | eBay

Any of the 26 volt BMZ or Panasonic batteries from 50 Cycles will work. Might be worth borrowing one first to make sure that the motor isn't knackered. If you have put 40 Volts across it, it might be now.

Your bike is identical to my Pro Connect. Flecc's web pages will give you all the info you need.
 

NeilP

Pedelecer
Sep 25, 2010
172
4
Great info guys, thansk

No issues with 40 volts..it still works just fine. I only had a 6 s lip[o and a 5s lipo to hand, the 6s by itself was too low to run the bike. Since it was only 26initially, then i guess from what you say that it needs that third wire to give correct indication on the handlebar state of charge indicator.

Tried again and Mode button does not work..will open it up to see if it is a soft button issue..maybe the pad is damaged.

Will review the info flecc has posted and let you know how I get on.

Many thanks
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
46,135
22,824
This is all I could find on Panasonic batteries, perhaps flecc could confirm if it is suitable for your bike:

Panasonic AKKU 10 AH mit 80 km Reichweite | eBay
Yes, that one is fine. There is one series of Panasonic unit batteries that can only be used with 300 watt rated models having a wider battery platform and widened cranks, first seen on the BikeTec Flyer X model. Those special batteries were 15 Ah at introduction, later increased to 16 Ah, but they are not widely available.
 

NeilP

Pedelecer
Sep 25, 2010
172
4
I do not even have an old battery to compare with, which is a shame as I would have re packed the housing with lipo.

Even an old battery with dead cells will do me fine..I will drop 50cycles a note and see if they have any dead packs..or maybe they re pack them themselves?


Will scan through your info flecc and see what mods I can do to the controller electronics to give it a boost,

Since there is no speed monitoring of road speed I am guessing the limiting is done via drive sprocket rpm limiting. Wondering if that can be increased by modifying the controller or programming? does it have a programming header that anyone has software for and a pinout for RS232-USB etc rather like the Lyen/Kewin/Infinieon boards? up the current limit too..guessing a shunt..


Have now had a good browse through the site Flecc has put up with all Panasonic information and although it is very good info for the layman or someone non-technical, not really what I was after.

I was trying to find more technical info on controller pinouts, etc. Although not even mentioned from what I can see, it appears to be a brushless '3phase' DC hall sensor motor..so it should be possible to run the motor unit from an external controller, bringing the halls and phase wires out, bypassing all that tedious limiting of the torque and speed system.

I'll get back to you on if it works or not :)
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
I've heard of people by-passing the electronics and driving the motor directly with a normal controller, but they weren't very happy with the results. It'll work, but you get running on with PAS and with throttle-only, you notice the low power that was previously supplemented with pedalling. I would only do this as a last resort.
 

NeilP

Pedelecer
Sep 25, 2010
172
4
How do you mean running on?with PAS? that sounds like a controller thing..all the PAS systems I have seen on the Lyen type controllers do that till you back pedal..bloody nuisance.

But running on with throttle only can you explain more.

Was only thinking of bypassing the original controller if it can't be modified or re programmed.
Anyone done any work on programming these?

and any info you have on that third battery wire appreciated
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
I missed a comma after PAS. It'll only run on with the PAS. There's a delay in responding to the PAS movement because it has to count pulses over a period of time, which affects both starting and running on. The time varies between about 0.5 to 2 seconds depending on the controller. There's no problem with the throttle except that most controllers use "speed Control", which causes the motor to to turn at a speed related to throttle position. This isn't so good for a crank-drive because the motor will run at different speeds in different gears. For a crank-drive motor, you need "current control" so that you control power with the throttle like on a motorbike. "Speed control" is better for hub-motors. These things I mentioned aren't deal-breakers. All the new Chinese crank-drives work like this, but the Panasonic is so much better.
 

NeilP

Pedelecer
Sep 25, 2010
172
4
Luckily I tend to use the CA to drive my controllers and often use Current throttle mode anyway..so that will be OK.

On my Mongoose Xlyte 5304 build I am about to fit a PAS controller from paul (CellMan) at em3ev.
It only is designed to run at 36 volts, and my pack is 84 volt, but I have knocked up a basic voltage reg with a zener and TIP47, =to feed the unit its required voltage..it may even help the 'run on' effect as drives the throttle line rather than the controller PAS pad. The throttle output voltage from it seem to ramp down almost instantly when pedalling stopped, but only time will tell.
 

oigoi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 14, 2011
467
6
Some people get more speed from the panasonic motors by increasing the number of teeth on the motor sprocket
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
46,135
22,824
The speed is controlled by the rate of pulses from the motor's Hall sensors, combined with the motor sprocket size. As Oigoi mentions, you can increase the motor sprocket size to increase the assist speed, but be aware that also increases the pedal cadence since it directly couples to the chainwheel. If yours has the 37 tooth chainwheel, that can be changed for the 41 tooth to reduce the cadence again. There is no mechanical coupling inside the unit between chainwheel and motor system, only the external chain coupling. The simplest way to increase the assist speed without any other changes is to decrease the rear sprocket(s) teeth. If your hub gear model has the 22 tooth sprocket, changing to the smallest Nexus 16 tooth increases the assist speed to just over 20 mph.

There's hardly any electronic tech info in my site because none is ever made available by Panasonic, they intend the unit to be only repaired by replacement and its built to last. It's combined circuit board is deep encapsulated and sealed into the r/h crankcase half so cannot be examined in full detail, the printed circuitry hidden underneath.
 

NeilP

Pedelecer
Sep 25, 2010
172
4
Hi Flecc,
Yes, I did see the info about changing the sprockets, the rear is 19, but I did not make a note of the front chain ring..thuogh form memory I am guessing it is probably 37,

I can understand that Panasonic has not released data on the boards, but was thinking that someone by now may have reverse engineered the boards, created a schematic etc.

Is the board totally potted in epoxy or just a bit of silicon and well inside the unit. From your pics it looks straightforward to strip it to get the board out, and the front side does not appear to be potted. So it should be easy enough to get out..unless it is actually fully encapsulated with a compound on teh back side, as you suggest. if you jsut mean encapsulated as in buried deep within the case, then stripping it out is not an issue. i am sure I noticed a large single shunt wire on your pics, so that could be doctored for a start to get a bit more current out of it, assuming the FETs are up to it.

Computer repairs today so won't be getting down the workshop to play
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
46,135
22,824
It is potted all over and well sealed in with the same. Attempts to get the board of the first series unit after failure have in turn failed with the board breaking up, though I've never tried that myself.

Yes, the shunt can be doctored, but I've not revealed that to date since it could have serious warranty implications for suppliers. Since the cat is out of the bag now, by binding the shunt across the vertical legs with plenty of wire looping, the gross power can be increased from the 400 watt peaks linked to below to as much as 900 watts. How long the unit would last like this I've no idea, but I think it might seriously reduce the life of the helical nylon gear reduction. It also wouldn't be healthy for the bike's transmission, especially with hub gears which are already at the Shimano limits with the combined pedal and motor power.

Panasonic power graph.jpg
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
That's a very interesting graph, Flecc. Is that power from the battery? Pesumably, the pulsing is directly related to ppedal strokes. It's a lot different to the Chinese crank-drives, which run with a much straighter graph.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
46,135
22,824
Yes, that's exactly it Dave, as you correctly assumed. It shows directly the action of the torque sensor, and accounts for the pulsing that can be sensed on these units when pedalling with high effort at low cadences. That's why I always describe it as a bionic system, adding directly to leg power rather than in normal continuous motor fashion.

It doesn't suit the raised high power that I mentioned, the pulse contrasts too great. To be frank it worked best of all on the original lower power unit, rather than on the later second generation.
 

NeilP

Pedelecer
Sep 25, 2010
172
4
It is potted all over and well sealed in with the same.
Damn shame:( that they are not the same as the ones you picture (below) in your site, from the French site. If they were still like that it would make things much easier

:(
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
46,135
22,824
By deep, I mean the rear of the board is fully sealed into the crankcase with the same resin. The coating on the front is not so deep as to swallow all the components completely, but that photo is probably deceptive, since the resin is clear. It may be possible to do some tracing by probing through, but it would be a laborious task.

The system as it stands is very dependent on the torque sensor feed to operate and does not respond adequately to an external controller and throttle as d8veh said. A to B magazine did try that with limited results, but it's better if going that far to just fit a good front hub motor instead and gut the crankcase of all the works to reduce the bike's weight.