New Cyclamatic

[Wisper Bikes]

Oh dear!

All the reasons Southend that made the correct and intelligent decision have already been stated simply and effectively in previous posts.

I am absolutely delighted to be working all over the country with superb dealer's offering individuals, businesses, town and county councils superb local service, and yes I am delighted that Southend is an area we are becoming very strong. The only reason I entered this discussion at all is at the invitation from Woosh in an earlier post.

Developing and importing Ebikes is actually not that simple. However the market is growing very quickly so I suggest that you do join in. You would probably do a great job. If you decide to have a go I would be delighted to give you some great contacts and advice. We are only in Kent, why don't you drop in and have a chat?

All the best, David

 

[flecc]

My criticism is I feel perfectly valid... Essex Council have bought e-bikes outside their local County boundaries when there is clearly an importer/supplier capable of supplying a similar product at similar cost from within. Did they even have that discussion?

There is far more to buying than the local supplier. Buyers, whether local authority, government or company, have a responsibility for providing the best solution with regard to reliability and support as well as initial cost, The buyer is highly unlikely to be an expert in ebikes and their suppliers, so will first do their homework. That would reveal that Wisper have a long established record of supplying e-bikes and providing excellent service to organisations. For example they were the first with the concept of supplying police forces, and have supplied e-bikes to many UK forces. Their e-bikes are successfully used in some very tough circumstances, we have members riding Wisper e-bikes in the Arctic circle areas of Norway and Sweden. So, given local support as well, the buyer could be excused for making a safe known choice.

For many years there was a saying in commerce regarding computer buying, "No-one ever got sacked for buying IBM". That reflected buyers choosing the safe option rather than take a perceived risk.

With the glories of the internet, any arse - myself included - can buy a container of e-bikes from China, and start an e-bike company. The designs are largely standard - you provide your own branding. There are numerous "boutique" resellers doing exactly that. I've considered doing it myself. It's pi** easy.

But as I said and you confirm, a bog standard product. One can do better with specified designs. I know that Wisper have long had a program of improvements that as a large scale buyer they can implement. For example they introduced the high quality Japanese Dapu motor into their Chinese made bikes.

And quality control is still an issue with Chinese production, buy standard and the issues don't take long to appear. It takes the large importing companies with long experience within China to guard against that satisfactorily.

Having knowledge of the assisted bicycle business over the whole of its 70 odd years of development, I'm well aware that the overwhelming majority of those who thought it easy to import and sell have quickly failed and often lost large sums of money.
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[cyclebuddy]

Oh dear!

I'm really not quite sure what you mean by that... I'm presuming you mean I'm naïve? You really do need to study the fascinating Greenway model to understand that there are businesses far bigger than yours that can (IMHO) undercut and flatten yours... provided it proves lucrative enough! It's precisely why I wouldn't even consider entering the e-bike reseller business.

Edit: a note to the new readers that Amps have. after this posting, since heavily edited/added to their earlier reply in an attempt to justify their response. "Covehithe" please take note before "disliking".

 

[Wisper Bikes]

The "Oh Dear" was a comment on your obvious frustration and not your naivety.

We are a little business, really tiny compared to many others, but I beleive we have a good strong future because we care and are good at what we do. We may yet be flattened and put out of business by the huge multinationals who are now our competitors, but we will continue to strive to be amongst the best of the smaller players in the market.

I do love this business! And this Forum!

All the best, David

 

[cyclebuddy]

The "Oh Dear" was a comment on your obvious frustration and not your naivety.

We are a little business, really tiny compared to many others, but I beleive we have a good strong future because we care and are good at what we do. We may yet be flattened and put out of business by the huge multinationals who are now our competitors, but we will continue to strive to be amongst the best of the smaller players in the market.

I do love this business!

All the best, David

I'm retired. I'm sitting pretty with a good pension, so in truth I really don't care. You may be ignoring the threats to your business and laughing now. Lets see if you're still laughing and "love this business" in 5 years time!

 

[Woosh]

Developing and importing Ebikes is actually not that simple.

Neither is selling e-bikes.
I believe it is much easier to master a few models than having to keep up with all the new development across the whole industry.

Dany at BikeBase Southend sells electric bikes from Powacycle, Pedego, Raleigh, Haibike and Giant besides Wisper.

I take my hat off to the IBDs.

 

[flecc]

I'm retired. I'm sitting pretty with a good pension, so in truth I really don't care. You may be ignoring the threats to your business and laughing now. Lets see if you're still laughing and "love this business" in 5 years time!

Following his extensive experience in another successful business, I know that David has been loving this business for almost three times that long so far, so the odds are good. I forgot to mention earlier that he was a founder member of BEBA, the British Electric Bike Association and a leading light in that institution who obtained a lobbyist in parliament on behalf of e-biking.

So I think you are in danger of "teaching granny to suck eggs", from your basis of rather limited knowledge of the subject.
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[cyclebuddy]

Following his extensive experience in another successful business, I know that David has been loving this business for almost three times that long so far, so the odds are good. I forgot to mention earlier that he was a founder member of BEBA, the British Electric Bike Association and a leading light in that institution who obtained a lobbyist in parliament on behalf of e-biking.

So I think you are in danger of "teaching granny to suck eggs", from your basis of rather limited knowledge of the subject.
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I don't doubt that David at Amps is passionate - even obsessive - about the e-bike market - and I understand why you would defend him/them. But to revel in a win over another equally passionate member is stupid and unprofessional. And to laugh - even gloat - of a win over a competitor in the face of major "money men" moving into this same market, when they should be uniting together is ridiculous. Far bigger companies are now moving into what they see as an easy buck, so it's stupid to perpetuate this small minded view,,,

You really do need to wake up and see what is already beginning to happen....

 

[flecc]

I don't doubt that David at Amps is passionate - even obsessive - about the e-bike market - and I understand why you would defend him/them. But to revel in a win over another equally passionate member is stupid and unprofessional.

You really do need to wake up and see what is already beginning to happen....

Not knowing him you misjudge David, he isn't revelling in a win, just displaying his usual good natured humour.

As for me waking up, I'm well aware of all the e-biking industry trends, but understand the UK market far better than it appears you do. Although it's grown, it's still miniscule compared to a number of the mainland EU markets, and it's that weakness that protects the smaller companies like Amps. If you really know as much as you indicate you do, you won't need me to explain why.
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[Wisper Bikes]

I'm retired. I'm sitting pretty with a good pension, so in truth I really don't care. You may be ignoring the threats to your business and laughing now. Lets see if you're still laughing and "love this business" in 5 years time!

I thought you may be retired Cyclebuddy, good luck to you!

At 62 I am still in the saddle and loving every minute. We are off to Taipei, Beijing and Kunshan in a few weeks to research new components and see our partners in China. All in an effort to keep ahead of the game.

I am very happy in the business and life in general but take the business seriously and understand the threats. Although we are small, and only support eight staff in Kent, they all rely on Wisper doing well.

I am the exception and the only doddery oldie, the Wisper team is young, very bright and ambitious. Our new NSM used to race with Team GB and has worked with Bosch for 6 years. He lives and breaths bicycles. At only 40 he is destined to take over from me in a few years. We are extremely well financed and have a great reputation for looking after all our customers. All good for the future.

If things do go wrong in five years time, it's been a great journey. I strongly beleive however, especially considering our rate of growth and over ten years already under our belt, that Wisper will be around for a very long time.

I genuinely do love this business!

All the best, David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Forgot to say, despite the banter here, I am very supportive of Hatti and Woosh they are a great group of people, as I am of all our competition and they are of us. It's a small market and we all get on very well.

It really is a great business and we do get on with each other, despite the odd person trying to put a wedge between us.

All the best, David

 

[cyclebuddy]

Not knowing him you misjudge David, he isn't revelling in a win, just displaying his usual good natured humour.

As for me waking up, I'm well aware of all the e-biking industry trends, but understand the UK market far better than it appears you do. Although it's grown, it's still miniscule compared to a number of the mainland EU markets, and it's that weakness that protects the smaller companies like Amps. If you really know as much as you indicate you do, you won't need me to explain why.
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I admit I know f-all about e-bikes, other than I own and ride two. It's not the current titchy e-bike market you need to worry about - it's about financing, which I would I argue, I know far more about than you. Do a full companies search on, for example. the financiers, backers and suppliers to Debenhams. You'll find there're money men linked to clothing... and, interestingly, the newly found e-bike market as a potential money spinner. Enter Greenway.

 

[flecc]

I admit I know f-all about e-bikes, other than I own and ride two. It's not the current titchy e-bike market you need to worry about - it's about financing, which I would I argue, I know far more about than you. Do a full companies search on, for example. the financiers, backers and suppliers to Debenhams. You'll find there're money men linked to clothing... and, interestingly, the newly found e-bike market as a potential money spinner. Enter Greenway.

No disagreement there, but compared to other forms of motorised transport, e-bikes are rather unreliable things. We've long had the big boys suppying e-bikes, even that giant Tesco from a number of years ago starting with the Meercat Metro and SportsUK in more recent years, but they are not well equipped to handle the problems, especially out of warranty. A number of the big suppliers have withdrawn long ago, licking their wounds.

So the IBDs are the only outlets possibly able to deal with that aspect to customer's satisfaction. They often find dealing with the smaller suppliers like Amps et al much easier than many of the bigger companies and manufacturers, communications and backup being faster and better, and the products often more reliable.
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[cyclebuddy]

No disagreement there
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I'm not disagreeing with you flecc, or anyone else here. The point really is that, I suppose, the market is changing as we speak.. That growth has sparked an interest from the "big money men" keen to turn a profit. I doubt his will remain a cottage industry.

All I'm really saying is that the independent importers need to work together... if the big money divides and conquers, we'll only end up with Evans and Halfords.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I completely agree Flecc. The bike market in general does not follow normal rules.

If we look at the Dutch And German markets arguably the biggest in the word for Ebikes it's full of smaller brands like Wisper and Woosh, with the IBDs controlling the retail market.

We are tiny as I say, but in 2015 we attracted three very powerful investors from big business. We invested last year in infrastructure and have great plans for the future including manufacturing here in Kent. Our investors all beleive in the industry and are enjoying growing the Wisper brand.

It will be interesting to see how Greenway get on. er have already seen the big boys such as Mercedes Daimler come and go.

All the best, David

 

[flecc]

I doubt his will remain a cottage industry.

It all hinges on this one statement. If the e-bike market grows to the scale it has in such as The Netherlands and Germany, the big boys could conmceivably dominate and wipe out most of the tiddlers except for some specialists in niche areas.

But that's a big if. All the evidence is that the market only grows big in nations that already extensively cycle, those who don't ride bikes or have even never ridden a bike don't buy e-bikes.

And that's Britain's weakness, our very low rate of cycling (3%) and almost 0% utility cycling. It's held back e-bike sales for many years and continues to. For comparison The Netherlands cycling rate is 70% of the population, almost entirely utility cycling, so they readily switch to e-bikes, over ten times our UK sales to just over a quarter of our population.

N.B. Crossed with Amps post above.
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[Wisper Bikes]

I'm not disagreeing with you flecc,

All I'm really saying is that the independent importers need to work together... if the big money divides and conquers, we'll only end up with Evans and Halfords.

I agree Cyclebuddy and we do. Anyone here will tell you that I was one of the founders of the British Electric Bicycle Association. A group of small importers and manufacturers who got together to promote the industry. We still all work together within the the BAGB. I have never known a business in which competitors work so closely with one another.

All the best, David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I should say that many well run tiddlers on the continent five years ago are now important players. One company in Holland that works in the same way as Woosh buying from China and selling directly to the end user now sell 40,000 bikes a year, not huge but not too shabby!

All good news.

All the best, David

 

[Woosh]

Time will tell,
I spent years in the PC industry, have seen the small independent PC assemblers rose and fell. Only Viglen is left. My PC company although is still here, has vastly shrunk. The decline started in the naughties, we lost all the big customers one by one, first to Capita then to Dell. The salami machine I used to call them.
If our e-bike market grows to the size of the Netherland's, we'll see all the Chinese companies like TGWG moving in, the same way you see Acer, AOpen, Gigabyte etc moving in. Even IBM could not keep Lenovo at bay.
I am with cyclebuddy on this.

 

[flecc]

If our e-bike market grows to the size of the Netherland's, we'll see all the Chinese companies like TGWG moving in, the same way you see Acer, AOpen, Gigabyte etc moving in. Even IBM could not keep Lenovo at bay.
I am with cyclebuddy on this.

As I remarked above, that growth is the big if. Personally I don't see our market growing to anything like The Netherlands one for the reasons I've given.

But as David has said, the IBDs in The Netherlands are a powerful force, and behind that is something that's being ignored in the discussion.

I mean the fact that the very big money has already taken over and dominates cycle manufacturing and supply. I'm speaking of course of the two giant groups, Accell and Pon Holdings, who between them own much of Europe's bike and e-bike manufacturing and supply, and a chunk of the USA's. That rather inconveniently makes it difficult for outsiders to move in.

Accell's recorded profitable turnover for 2015 was just short of one billion euros.
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