Ongoing reliability of Kalkhoff/Focus Impulse 2 motors

Ocsid

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 2, 2017
441
265
81
Hampshire
Thank you both and in particular Danidl for going into such supporting detail for me, together they make the picture and claim clearer.
Should it ever get to be aired in a court it would seem the barristers could have a field day.

Thanks.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,763
30,349
Thank you both and in particular Danidl for going into such supporting detail for me, together they make the picture and claim clearer.
Should it ever get to be aired in a court it would seem the barristers could have a field day.

Thanks.
Just to round this off and show just how light-heartedly the law on pedelecs is treated, there has always been a requirement that they be plated showing various details. The current requirement I quote below:

As part of the GB EAPC amending legislation, that will come into force on 6 April 2015, the requirement for the marking identification has been amended. Previously a plate showing the manufacturer, maximum continuous rated power output and voltage was necessary, from April 6 2015 the requirement will be that the manufacturer, maximum continuous rated output and maximum assisted cutoff speed shall be marked on the cycle.

James Brown, Department for Transport


None of them on our market in the UK has ever been plated with all the necessary details, or even any plate at all in most cases.

And absolutely no-one appears to be in the slightest bit concerned about this.
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Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,608
12,253
72
Ireland
Just to round this off and show just how light-heartedly the law on pedelecs is treated, there has always been a requirement that they be plated showing various details. The current requirement I quote below:

As part of the GB EAPC amending legislation, that will come into force on 6 April 2015, the requirement for the marking identification has been amended. Previously a plate showing the manufacturer, maximum continuous rated power output and voltage was necessary, from April 6 2015 the requirement will be that the manufacturer, maximum continuous rated output and maximum assisted cutoff speed shall be marked on the cycle.

James Brown, Department for Transport


None of them on our market in the UK has ever been plated with all the necessary details, or even any plate at all in most cases.

And absolutely no-one appears to be in the slightest bit concerned about this.
.
Not so flecc, my Raleigh motus has such a aluminised sticker on the front of the down tube
Stating
Manufacturer full address , weight allowed , 25 in HR. 250w , year of construction, model name, space designation and two en references b 15194 and 4*****. Rest Hidden by dirt.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,763
30,349
Not so flecc, my Raleigh motus has such a aluminised sticker on the front of the down tube
Stating
Manufacturer full address , weight allowed , 25 in HR. 250w , year of construction, model name, space designation and two en references b 15194 and 4*****. Rest Hidden by dirt.
Thanks for the information, it's good that one is trying and hopefully there will be more. Still overall an exception though, of well over 200,000 pedelecs on UK roads, you'd find almost all have no plate whatsoever. None I've owned or the many I've tried over the years have had a plate.
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D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
I have a kalkhoff Intergrale 8 bought it in March, on my second motor after getting the duck noises and endless other problems now second motor has same duck noises and awaiting what they are going to do, will keep you imformed but very disappointing considering what I paid for it!
I'm sorry to hear that, George. I did my best to warn people that the issue was not fixed, but the care bears came along and diluted the message.
 
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Robbieg

Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2016
188
71
66
Burton on trent
Well I hold my hands up d8veh and Crocker's, I was also one of those who wanted to believe in the Impulse motor and that the Evo RS had been reliably redesigned but was disappointed. But still stand by the fact that 50 Cycles at Loughborough have always provided good service making every effort to rectify things right up to the eventual bike change to Haibike SduroTrekking. I'm not sure why (a) Kalkhoff continue to persevere with Impulse motors to what is otherwise a good range of bikes, why not just fit Yamaha or Bosch or another proven unit? And (b) why do 50 Cycles continue to deal with a brand that is generally troublesome? It would be interesting to see some statistics if they are available, as to the percentage of Impulse motor replacements in the first two years as a percentage. Are these statistics available or not?
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
AFAICT, every single forum member that did around 2000 miles had at least one motor replacement. For some strange reason, the replacement motors seem to fail much more quickly. It's a real shame because for 1500 miles, you get a lovely bike, then, it seems, nothing but trouble.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,763
30,349
why do 50 Cycles continue to deal with a brand that is generally troublesome?
In 1995 they took on a brand that quickly became the best selling quality e-bikes on the market, by early 1997 some 38% of the members of this forum owned their best selling model. But then it all went wrong, primarily due to battery failures in those early lithium days. This lead to a huge row between the manufacturer and 50cycles and in the Autumn of 1997 they parted company. The manufacturer eventually sorted out the problems and made their bikes some of the best again.

Meanwhile though, in November 1997 50cycles took on Kalkhoff and hit the jackpot, the two pedelec models being excellent. Although not powerful by today's standards, their Panasonic crank motor units were more powerful than the popular Giant Lafree's unit, so 50cycles sold them in droves.

Kalkhoff having this success with their first pedelecs then branched out on supplies, first adopting the German battery maker BMZ to supply batteries for the Panasonic units instead of Panasonic batteries, and they were popular being available in a huge range of capacities from 8 to 24 Ah.

So Kalkhoff then approached the German company Daum who had produced Germany's first crank motor unit and adopted those as their first in-house power unit, calling it Impulse. It seemed ok apart from a strange software quirk, but which was quickly corrected when customers complained.

Meanwhile Bosch entered the market with much more power, so Kalkhoff-Daum felt compelled to follow by boosting their power, designating the unit the Impulse 2. That was very powerful, but unfortunately that led to the current problems, cogs shedding teeth, pawls failing etc, and Daum were obviously struggling to correct the problems.

Of course 50cycles were suffering the considerable backlash, and given their unfortunate experience with their previous brand, were probably thinking "Oh no, not again". They will have seen how that previous manufacturer had eventually overcome their problems, so I can understand them wanting to stick it out with Kalkhoff, probably receiving promises to put things right.

That hasn't been the case though, hence Kalkhoff now also fitting Bosch units. That sort of switch isn't easily done in large numbers though, given manufacturing lead times, so it could be some while before they get enough Bosch units for all models. And who knows, Daum might solve their problems meanwhile, making the switch unnecessary.
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redalexx

Pedelecer
And who knows, Daum might solve their problems meanwhile, making the switch unnecessary.
I agree, a bit, a little bit. I hope also that the problems are solved. I must admit, I read in forums very often about biker and their failures of the 2015 and 2016 motors. Meanwhile it's getting calmer with the improved 2017 motors. Of course, there are still some failing units, like you can find on Bosch, on Yamaha and all other manufacturers.

Instead of the Impulse2.0 there are more failing EVOs, why? Possibly because of the increased numbers of bike models with this unit?!?!

@flecc thanks for this interesting statement about 50cycles in your prevoius post.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,763
30,349
Instead of the Impulse2.0 there are more failing EVOs, why? Possibly because of the increased numbers of bike models with this unit?!?!
A worrying aspect for me is that Daum may have known from the outset that their motor unit had strength limitations.

I mentioned in my previous post that the Daum had a strange software quirk. In practice when higher power was selected, the unit initially delivered much more for a few seconds but then reduced it a little. Reviewers disliked that disconcerting feature, and so did the early customers, so a software upgrade was issued to remove that automatic power reduction.

My question is, why was that there in the first instance? Was it to preserve the unit from early failure due to the stresses of high power mode? We'll never know of course, but it's reasonable to think that might be the case. That could certainly account for the high failure rate of the more powerful Impulse 2 units which were effectively always in higher power modes.
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Robbieg

Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2016
188
71
66
Burton on trent
Thanks for the historical info Flecc, it makes things a bit clearer, but I reckon the consumer would possibly prefer a less powerful but reliable motor and those that need extra torque could choose to buy a more proven and appropriate bike. I just can't understand why a manufacturer would want to risk gaining a bad reputation by producing bikes that a high percentage are likely to fail. It's easier to gain a bad reputation than to get rid of it, and eventually they might get the Impulse motor fit for purpose but why should the customer be used as a R and D guinea pig until that time?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,763
30,349
Thanks for the historical info Flecc, it makes things a bit clearer, but I reckon the consumer would possibly prefer a less powerful but reliable motor and those that need extra torque could choose to buy a more proven and appropriate bike. I just can't understand why a manufacturer would want to risk gaining a bad reputation by producing bikes that a high percentage are likely to fail. It's easier to gain a bad reputation than to get rid of it, and eventually they might get the Impulse motor fit for purpose but why should the customer be used as a R and D guinea pig until that time?
I agree, but I suppose national pride and costs come into the mistaken decisions. The previously very reliable Panasonic units are quite expensive and it probably goes against German instincts to use a Japanese product rather than home grown.
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reggie_electric

Finding my (electric) wheels
Dec 15, 2015
23
8
44
Sorry to hear of the Integrale failure. I was interested in them when I bought my Agattu 2 years ago.

I have had three motor failures in two years, and am currently getting the whole bike replaced thanks to an understanding (and probably very poor, German) dealer. I probably will be going with a KTM Macina with Bosch performance line, and hope for more luck. Thanks to this forum for giving weight and credence to the issue of systemic failures rather than one off events.

My failure rate was around:
Motor 1 - 800 miles (clicking, grinding)
Motor 2 - 2300 miles (quacking, vibrations)
Motor 3 (2017 spec) - 150 miles (yes, only lasted a few days before quacking, cricketing, vibrations and loss of power).

Although my bike might seem to have done high miles, it's half the miles it would have done with a 17 mile round commute everyday if it hadn't been off the road with problems for half its life. It's probably paid for itself even so, but every day it's not able to be used costs me another £5 on the bus. I have also paid some postage and fitting costs which I probably needn't have during motor replacements. I finally had enough.

The bikes are wonderful things out of the box, but for some users time is not being kind on the engine front.
 

George Walter

Finding my (electric) wheels
Sep 29, 2017
5
7
54
Australia
Thanks for the historical info Flecc, it makes things a bit clearer, but I reckon the consumer would possibly prefer a less powerful but reliable motor and those that need extra torque could choose to buy a more proven and appropriate bike. I just can't understand why a manufacturer would want to risk gaining a bad reputation by producing bikes that a high percentage are likely to fail. It's easier to gain a bad reputation than to get rid of it, and eventually they might get the Impulse motor fit for purpose but why should the customer be used as a R and D guinea pig until that time?
It makes me sick thinking about it!