Setting a Standard?

[flecc]

Absolutely agree on the Powabykes, too often under rated.

Some more modern bikes can better that though, Pansonic unit equipped bikes can do better as can the Wisper 905 series. A number of others can do as well, but as ever, so much depends on the rider input. Weak riders can forget about 40 plus miles on any of these bikes, Powabyke included.

As for me personally, I could do 50 miles at age 71, 11 stones, on a single charge of the current Panasonic system, an indication of it's extraordinarily low Wh/mile capability with only a 260 Wh battery. When not bothering about range, I'd routinely get 35 miles in the very hilly territory of the North Downs.

40 miles is the best I've ever scraped from a hub motor bike with a 370 Wh battery, usually much less, basically my fault though since with throttle control I tend to be lazier.
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[Alex728]

Absolutely agree on the Powabykes, too often under rated.

there is this long empty stretch of road, the old A45 made into local traffic / bikes only between Ipswich/Mid Suffolk - I used to race this old dude who had a Powabyke shopper (probably some years older than flecc) on my unpowered pushbike..

it wasn't a pushover and if I was knackered from partying at the weekend I didn't always win (which he clearly found most amusing!)

it was partly this which made me abandon my initial scepticism of e-bikes

 

[eTim]

I can buy a car or a motor bike or even a normal bicycle and expect to be able to travel a hundred miles and arrive at my destination. As yet I can't do that with an electric bike.

I think what you are trying to say is that most electric bicycles are not yet marketed to do 100 miles, because of the limitations of the battery range.

But you can do 100 miles on an electric bicycle, the question is, which ebikes will you enjoy doing the miles on with the assistance off and which ones will have you cursing with every turn of the pedals.

 

[themutiny]

I almost despair! A car is not a hybrid of two power sources and is not more complex, it's dynamically less complex than the Panasonic type system.

Er, not completely accurate Tony, and it does raise another observation.

I and many of my colleagues drive a Prius. The official mpg is 74.8 for the new model, and was 65 or so for the previous one.

No one that I know has ever achieved these figures, and a straw poll would indicate that most careful drivers can achieve around 50 - 55 with the old model, and 55-60 with the new one. By contrast, my trusty old Avensis Diesel estate, if driven carefully can comfortably exceed the quoted figures.

Mind, I have never encountered accelerator problems either. Ever.

 

[flecc]

Er, not completely accurate Tony, and it does raise another observation.

I and many of my colleagues drive a Prius. The official mpg is 74.8 for the new model, and was 65 or so for the previous one.

No one that I know has ever achieved these figures, and a straw poll would indicate that most careful drivers can achieve around 50 - 55 with the old model, and 55-60 with the new one. By contrast, my trusty old Avensis Diesel estate, if driven carefully can comfortably exceed the quoted figures.

Mind, I have never encountered accelerator problems either. Ever.

Sorry Nick, the commonly known Prius is not a true hybrid, despite Toyota's claims, it only has one power source, petrol. The electrical energy is directly or indirectly recovered from the petrol energy used in the first place. The new Prius is going to be a hybrid for the first time since it has the capability of being mains charged in addition.

How's that for nerve, telling a Toyota man how his product works!

That aside though, onmebike was referring to cars in general of course and the Prius is only a minute fraction of the overall car population over time.

You don't surprise me with the accelerator mention, the Toyota recall subject has been ridiculously over-emphasized by the media, no mention made of the Peugeot and Nissan recalls happening at the same time.
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[themutiny]

Quite right of course, I was being somewhat disingenuous (should have known better!) However, they are far more complex in operation than the average car.

The whole recall issue has more to do with market share of Ford and GM in the U.S. than anything else. The Prius braking firmware change even more so.

 

[flecc]

Quite right of course, I was being somewhat disingenuous However, they are far more complex in operation than the average car.

Indeed it is, though not in the context of comparison with the Pansonic system. In that it's the rider input that is dealt with in such an infinitely complex way, all car accelerator pedal actions being simply one mode (even when they stick! )

The whole recall issue has more to do with market share of Ford and GM in the U.S. than anything else. The Prius braking firmware change even more so.

You confirm my prior suspicions, taking over as the world's largest car manufacturer was always going to invite US dirty tricks. We only have to look at the snide and underhand attack on Airbus when they took over from Boeing as the largest airline manufacturer to know that.
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[onmebike]

I almost despair! A car is not a hybrid of two power sources and is not more complex, it's dynamically less complex than the Panasonic type system.

And the standard test you propose would not give any meaningful comparison with hub motor systems. The question is, where and at what level do you set all the robotic variables. Wherever you set them, they will be wrong since the essence of the working system is continuous dynamic variability, not constants, so any results would not in any way reflect the real world system. Panasonic would reject such results.
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I'm sure you do almost despair! you confuse the hell out of me. Making a relatively simple task, impossible. Life is full of variable's, we have to make measured choice's on the information available, the better the information the easier the task of choosing. How else would we ever make a decision.
From what your saying I assume that given three ebike's to test, you couldn't pick the better of them for your particular requirement's?
Of course you could and the information you base your choice on, would be useful to prospective buyer's. See, you've now become fleccometer the ebike standard.
I'm not so sure a car/vehicle with a driver shouldn't be regarded as a hybrid of two power sources, driver input cannot be totally disregarded, calorie's burn't etc? I wouldn't like to tell a bunch of hgv drivers they've put zero energy into their days work.
The car is as dependant on the driver as the ebike is on the rider.
Driver/rider input of either affect the outcome of a journey.
The modern car is far more complex than an ebike on component count alone, throw the various system's into the equation and your statements dead in the water, but I'd still like to hear your reasons for stating otherwise?
Regarding the robotic variable's. An average of each, but it's not that important, so long as same test apply's to all. Its just a comparison on how ebike's stand up against each other under a given set of tasks.
Okay, so the results under real world condition's will vary increasingly, the further away from the mid range test conditions they become. Some better, some worse. Isn't that what happens with all standards? variations around the quoted figure's dependant on usage and condition's.

 

[NRG]

I'm sure you do almost despair! you confuse the hell out of me. Making a relatively simple task, impossible. Life is full of variable's, we have to make measured choice's on the information available, the better the information the easier the task of choosing. How else would we ever make a decision.
From what your saying I assume that given three ebike's to test, you couldn't pick the better of them for your particular requirement's?
Of course you could and the information you base your choice on, would be useful to prospective buyer's. See, you've now become fleccometer the ebike standard.
I'm not so sure a car/vehicle with a driver shouldn't be regarded as a hybrid of two power sources, driver input cannot be totally disregarded, calorie's burn't etc? I wouldn't like to tell a bunch of hgv drivers they've put zero energy into their days work.
The car is as dependant on the driver as the ebike is on the rider.
Driver/rider input of either affect the outcome of a journey.
The modern car is far more complex than an ebike on component count alone, throw the various system's into the equation and your statements dead in the water, but I'd still like to hear your reasons for stating otherwise?
Regarding the robotic variable's. An average of each, but it's not that important, so long as same test apply's to all. Its just a comparison on how ebike's stand up against each other under a given set of tasks.
Okay, so the results under real world condition's will vary increasingly, the further away from the mid range test conditions they become. Some better, some worse. Isn't that what happens with all standards? variations around the quoted figure's dependant on usage and condition's.

Its many years since I had to pedal a car not since I was in short trousers! And I don't see many HGV drivers actually pushing their rigs although I've seen some big burly blokes on TV actually pulling an HGV on the Worlds Strongest man competition

 

[lemmy]

Okay, so the results under real world condition's will vary increasingly, the further away from the mid range test conditions they become.

In a nutshell, that's why these sort of tests are a waste if time.

Any sensible person reads reviews and tests of bikes by people like Flecc and others on the forum here and elsewhere. These will give you a rough idea of your likely range.

No robots to design, no 'standards' to ratify, no red tape, no expense, no arguments over what 'standard' means. The information is easily accessible for anyone who cares to find it.

We shouldn't have to nanny people like this. They have senses of their own. They can find out.

 

[flecc]

The car is as dependant on the driver as the ebike is on the rider.

This is quite simply nonsense, the driver does not provide a high percentage of the propulsive power, the rider can on any e-bike, and on the Panasonic system the rider has to, between 43% and 66% on the standard unit. But that's only the rider power percentage, the actual motor power is determined by the rider input in the complex ways I've already described in detail for you.

The modern car is far more complex than an ebike on component count alone, throw the various system's into the equation and your statements dead in the water, but I'd still like to hear your reasons for stating otherwise?

I've already posted my reasons which are also facts, first in the full description given, second in my reply to Nick (themutiny) when he said the Prius was more complex:

Indeed it is, though not in the context of comparison with the Pansonic system. In that it's the rider input that is dealt with in such an infinitely complex way, all car accelerator pedal actions being simply one mode

To spell it out for you, all the complexity around car engines is an internalised part of of the engine system, not under the driver control. The rough equivalent on an e-bike is the controller. Those complexities on the Panasonic system are controlled by the way the bike is ridden, by various rider input variables.

It's worth pointing out that Nick is in the motor industry and has accepted my answer, I'm ex motor industry and qualified so also know a little about the subject.
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[Xcytronex]

Interesting thread--I suppose [as with e-bikes ]it could be argued that a motorists range is dependant on driver input and in a similar way.For instance I work with a chap who owns a Fireblade -leaving work he speeds up to around 100 mph -braking as late as possible -to stop at he first set of lights .He repeats this manouver a further 3 times generally having to stop at two more traffic lights and finally a roundabout .He loves the big Honda but the fuel consumption is not what he imagined it would be !!! How a car /motorcyle/e-bike is drvien/ridden surely has a quantifiable effect on its fuel consumption.

 

[flecc]

Missing what I've posted earlier in the thread Xcytronex. Two identical bikes, ridden in company together on the same route, one giving 62 miles and one 30 miles.

Two Fireblades ridden close together in the same way would have similar consumptions, 2 to 1 difference would be impossible.

Their riders could not influence the outcome in remotely the same way that those two Panasonic equipped cyclists did, so not similar at all
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[Fecn]

For those who haven't ridden a panasonic bike, the best analogy I can come up with is 'It works just like power steering on your car'

How far can you turn a steering wheel before your arms get tired? ... well.. that depends on your strength, the size of the steering wheel, the amount of power-assist applied by the car's system... the way the assistance is applied.. some cars applying progressively more and more assistance the further from centre you get (Citroens for example).. some apply contsant assistance. Power steering is a true hybrid system.

Two identical bikes, ridden in company together on the same route, one giving 62 miles and one 30 miles.

Not quite identical bikes, although they were both Agattus. They certainly had identical motors, batteries and control electronics, but one was small-framed, 26" wheels with standard gearing. The other was large-frame, 700c wheels, with modified gearing. However, regardless of that the riders (me & my mate Si) will have had far more influence than the changes in wheel size and gearing setup. On a different ride, my unfit mate Matt got 36 miles on the small framed bike using 1:1 assistance all the way.

 

[flecc]

Power steering is a true hybrid system.

Absolutely, two distinct and separate power sources, though not varied by the driver input variations in speed or force in the way the Panasonic system responds to those in pedalling variations.
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[Xcytronex]

Missing what I've posted earlier in the thread Xcytronex. Two identical bikes, ridden in company together on the same route, one giving 62 miles and one 30 miles.

Two Fireblades ridden close together in the same way would have similar consumptions, 2 to 1 difference would be impossible.

Their riders could not influence the outcome in remotely the same way that those two Panasonic equipped cyclists did, so not similar at all
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I was not responding directly to your post flecc -merely suggesting that that any mode of transports range is dependant on how it is driven/ridden .You can if riding in the correct manner get 50 miles out of a Wisper-like wise if you drive similarly you can do the same with a suitable motor vehicle.That was the only point I was making.

 

[flecc]

Understood Xcytronex, I thought it was a comparison.

The Panasonic system doesn't compare in respect of rider input with the Wisper though, and that isn't what is being appreciated in this thread. Both are affected by the direct level of rider input as you say, but the Panasonic type system is additionally affected by the further range of rider variables I've described.
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[Bob_about]

The current situation is ridiculous (IMHO)

Come back to this thread this evening and it continues to be interesting.

Excellent explanations from Flecc on the complexities of the Panasonic system, it is clearly way more sophisticated than I had realised, even after riding over 40 miles on an E-Motion. Also some very interesting thoughts on innovative potential test methods.

I wonder is it worth thinking again about purpose? Why would any industry ever be interested in adopting a standard? What is the purpose of a standard?

For me it is all about
• Providing clear, unbiased data calculated via an agreed method
• Allowing consumers to have confidence in the data they read
• Allowing comparison between similar products

What I have read here is alot of detail about why this is so difficult, controversial, and potentially even meaningless that it is not worth attempting.

Are we therefore saying that we are happy to continue with an approach which at best allows optimistic claims to be stated as fact, and at worst is downright misleading. Frequent advice on this forum is to take manufacturers claims with a pinch of salt and it seems widely accepted here that range is often overstated. I have even seen suggestions that consumers buying without full research and reference to the advice on here have themselves to blame?

The Wisper homepage www.wisper.com (and I choose Wisper as there is a strong support for the brand here and I have been impressed by David`s posts and replies) currently carries a table which looks to the casual eye full of useful data. The end column of this table is headed “Range – Minimum Published” and below it are figures for a number of Wisper models and some other makes. For 37V 14Ah Wispers the column has a figure of 56 miles as the “Range – Minimum Published”.

Back in October last year when I first started looking at E-Bikes I saw this and assumed that the minimum I could expect from a 14ah Wisper would be 56 miles. I have looked again this evening and still believe this is the intention of that table (David – what else am I to deduce from the way that table is set out?).

The same 905 se 14Ah Wisper bikes are reported elsewhere on the web as having a range of:
• “20-50 miles” (OnBike website)
• “up to 68 miles” (inno cycle website),
• “35 mile range” (Electric Bike Shop, Cambridge) ,
• “up to 60 mile range” (Atmosphere Electric Bikes).
Some sites have caveats about rider input, weight & terrain – others do not.

Purpose here is not to have a go at Wisper (honest David – your bikes have a wide distribution network and are therefore represented on many websites so the “research” was easy to do. Other manufacturers have similarly confusing data all over the place).

Purpose is to identify just what a ridiculous situation we currently have. Manufactureres and suppliers giving no consistency, even with one product!

Is this what we want? Is it reasonable to expect the same product to be represented with such wide variations? What first impressions does that give the customer? Is it reasonable to expect customers to then delve into lengthy research and search internet forums to get a clear picture? How many, I wonder, give up and either buy without knowledge or just dont buy?

If we want the industry to be regarded as responsible, reasonable and customer focussed surely we have an interest in getting accurate and reliable data in the hands of people wanting to try or buy the products? Hence, I believe, the suggestion of a standard.

So here is my plea to all the manufacturers on here and members of the BEBA

Please agree an approach to take in telling your customers reliable, consistent and fair information which is suitable for the purposes you could reasonably expect them to use it for.

All the best

Bob_about

 

[onmebike]

Indeed it is, though not in the context of comparison with the Pansonic system. In that it's the rider input that is dealt with in such an infinitely complex way, all car accelerator pedal actions being simply one mode

I accept that the car driver provide's no propulsion, as does the ebike rider.
But I see comparisons between driver/rider input in both cases.
Rider input of ebike = variable rate's of pedalling are converted into power applied to the drive.
Driver input of car = variable rate's of accelerator are also converted into power applied to drive. Moreso to some extent in the case of an automatic car, where accelerator via engine rpm control gear change.
There may even be comparisons between the ebike controller and the engine management system of a car.

For the sake of debate, let's say your right, result's of any test would be meaningless in real world situation's with all the variable's involved.

Major ebike manufacturer instruct their design/developement team to produce a range of competiton beating ebike's and at the same time improve their current range.

How in this case, would they determine what is competition beating or an improvement on their own product's, if as you say test result's and measurement's are rendered meaningless by the variable's?

Going back to an earlier comment regarding bypassing the pedelec on a Panasonic? I'd wager that Panasonic have a plugin device that can simulate pedaling at varying rate's electronically for test purposes.

 

[eddieo]

re Bobs post, When does anyone ever believe advertising jargon? Surely you look around the web for other sources of information and hope to gleen some impartial unbiased information....that is why I joined here

I am unfit, 17 stone and get 40 miles out of a 14 amp wisper. I have never ridden till flat so probably a bit more then that is achievable. If i was fit I could probably stretch that another 10-15 miles but would I need a heavy E bike if I was....... I new fully what to expect when I bought the bikes as I had done my homework on here first.

But you are right some believe what they read so something needs to be done......I just dont think you can legislate for this kind of stuff you just have to be sceptical, and do your own homework before buying anything