Suggestion that delivery companies should check their riders bikes are legal !!!!!!

Nealh

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Aug 7, 2014
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The issue is policing and not enough numbers to do it also there is the lack of even the very basic bike equipement on all bikes E or non E, that is a bell/horn and proper lights.
Imv confiscation and a heavy fine should be the minimum, problem is this country is too free and liberal with punishment of minor crimes.
 

Bonzo Banana

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2019
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Mid or hub, to be legal the motor must be rated and marked 250W by the manufacturer. Your own hub motor is rated and marked 500W - @Saracen's motor is more legal than yours.



https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/bought-a-cheap-ebike-kit-from-amazon-warehouse.42958/
I've still not used that motor its still in the box. Another delayed project but looking forward to getting it on an ebike in the future.

Rated and marked by the manufacturer (or the sticker someone has put on it afterwards) is one thing but of course the real wattage is what the motor is actually consuming. As stated by myself and many others in the past across internet forums all over the world rating a hub motor for wattage is utterly pointless in legal terms it is the controller that dictates power. A 500W hub motor is its safe rating for power that in no way means the controller is also 500W. It is the controller that should be rated. It is quite rare for any 250W rated ebike to actually have a 250W maximum hub motor in my experience. I would say a 350W hub motor was a common hub motor fitted.

I realise there are some proprietary mid-drive motors with low wattage by Bosch and a few others that only generate 40Nm torque and have fairly low current controllers meant for cheaper leisure bikes. I'm not sure I've ever seen a mid-drive motor kit that is lets say 7A continuous rating and 11A peak to fit the true definition of 250W. Most I've seen are well above that and the 250W rating is purely a sticker to show its speed restricted to 15.5mph and has no connection on the real wattage of the motor. That's all many of these Chinese brands have done nowadays, they have seen how Bosch and others have sold products outside the legislation and got away with it and now they just relabel 750W mid-drive motors and hub motors as 250W and no one seems to question it at all legally. In fact they are typically lower power than most e-mountain bike Bosch motors. They are just electronically restricted to 15.5mph out of the box.

I don't know which mid-drive motor he has but fair enough if its 7Ax36V or 5Ax48V continuous rating then its a true 250W mid-drive motor which I can't argue with. I'd be very surprised if it was though.
 

guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
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A 500W hub motor is its safe rating for power that in no way means the controller is also 500W. It is the controller that should be rated.
That's your opinion, not law. You told @Saracen that his motor is:


It's probably illegal anyway if its a high power mid-drive motor well above 250W and delivering perhaps 15A or more of power when climbing hills however again the Department for Transport have stated that if a ebike kit meets the correct spec it doesn't have to go through the type approval process. However most mid-drive kit ebikes would be well above the 250W rating. So the ebike may already be illegal but fitting a throttle too it makes no difference to its illegal status. However if you had a legal ebike kit that adheres to the 250W rating then fitting a twist and go throttle would not be illegal. As far as I know all the Wisper legal twist and go ebikes are lower power hub motor based ebikes and for a ebike kit to be legal with a throttle it has to be a 250W rated motor even if a kit. So you couldn't add a throttle to a mid-drive motor ebike kit as it would still be outside the 250W rating. The type approval exemption still means the converted ebike must meet the correct standards.

It isn't.
 
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Bonzo Banana

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That's your opinion, not law. You told @Saracen that his motor is:





It isn't.
What motor is it?

Also the problem with ebike law is why we keep talking about it. It's a complete mess and unworkable. Everyone is interpreting it as they want to intepret it with their own bias. Throttles are perfectly legal on many ebikes without issue but so many keep stating the same rubbish. Others claim their motors consuming over 800W are more legal in wattage than others than consume about half that at peak. The whole legislation just seems to be avoided except for fitted pedals and the 15.5mph assistance speed. I've got a Tongsheng mid-drive motor and I'm not going to pretend its legal however I know at peak its about 150W less than a so called legal Bosch motor. It's just a complete farce. I'm in no way saying that ebikes with motors that consume more than 250W should be taken off the road. What gets me is the people that somehow think of their own high power ebike is legal and are damning of others who have less powerful ebikes in legal terms. Bosch was the culprit behind dieselgate they are happy to break rules if they think they can get away with it. They have kept pushing up the torque of their motors because no one is stopping them. I don't want anyone to stop them I just don't like double standards especially when Bosch are unreliable high price products with a relatively short life and are proprietary throw away products. More responsible, repairable products should be allowed the same wattage. There is no reason for ebike legislation not to be clearly defined and easy to understand, no reason at all. I am 100% in favour of getting rid of the current legislation and bringing it inline with other legislation regarding motor wattage being clearly defined. I'm happy with a 800W continuous rating with momentary peaks above that with motor assistance of 15.5mph. Easy to test with a multimeter when climbing hills.


What counts as an EAPC
An EAPC must have pedals that can be used to propel it.
It must show either:
  • the power output
  • the manufacturer of the motor
It must also show either:
  • the battery’s voltage
  • the maximum speed of the bike
Its electric motor:
  • must have a maximum power output of 250 watts
  • should not be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling more than 15.5mph
An EAPC can have more than 2 wheels (for example, a tricycle).
 
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guerney

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Sep 7, 2021
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What motor is it?
A legal Bafang BBS01B mid-motor rated by the manufacturer as 250W - it's permanently engraved on the motor by Bafang. It's legal, it'd be legal even if he increased the controller's limit to it's maximum of 20A using the programming cable and software.
 
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Bonzo Banana

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Sep 29, 2019
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A legal Bafang BBS01B mid-motor rated by the manufacturer as 250W - it's permanently etched on the motor by Bafang. It's legal, it'd be legal even if he increased the controller's limit to it's maximum of 20A using the programming cable and software.
So a fully charged 36V battery is 42V and you have stated 20A controller (continuous?) that is 840W peak current. 3.5x the so called legal wattage. To produce 80Nm that is probably at 20A similar to the Tongsheng.

Again this is just calling 15.5mph a 250W motor its is utterly meaningless and would never stand up in court. It's no different to the dieselgate situation where people assumed their cars were legal until they weren't and they were producing far more emissions than they claimed. How is anyone going to claim in court it is a 250W motor when tested to over 800W continuous operation?

I was a compliance officer dealing with European certification and much of it made no sense and many things were overlooked. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't surprised when many of the Chinese products we imported got through certification. People seem to assume certification means everything is checked, it isn't only a subset of checks are made to that standard. Just because Bafang certified its motor under the legislation doesn't mean it can happily use 800W legally.

So basically you believe a 800W motor is actually a 250W motor because they have put a rating label on it that says 250W? However you believe a 400W motor is less legal because someone hasn't put a 250W rating sticker on it? So someone riding a 400W ebike should have their ebike stopped and confiscated because of incompetent and corrupt legislation that makes zero sense.

I couldn't stand up in court and pretend that Bafang motor is 250W especially if they showed me it drawing 800W of power. Why is my Tongsheng less legal despite pretty much having identical power characteristics (if limited to 15.5mph) especially if I stuck a 250W sticker on it?

Whatever the legal interpretation of that motor the one thing it certainly isn't is a 250W motor. Surely no one is going to argue that a sticker over-rides the real evidence of what that motor draws in power. If someone says a 1500cc engine is legally a 500cc engine then so be it but it's still very much a 1500cc engine in the real world away from the fantasy legal world.

I would still say that motor is illegal just overlooked legally like many other ebikes. I guess you would have to send data showing it consuming possibly over 800W of power to the correct authorities and request it's legal status for use on UK roads. I'm not convinced the result would come back saying it would be legal to do so.

Also I now remember the BBS01B because its the model used for those widely distributed stickers for motors. Aliexpress etc. It's like because Bafang managed to slip through the certification it's what they are all re-labelling their 500-1000W mid-drive motors as. So its like every mid-drive motor out there be it Tonsheng, Bafang or whatever is a Bafang BBS01B just to get the 250W rating. Many of which will actually be less powerful than the BBS01B such is the farcical nature of the certification.

 
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guerney

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So basically you believe a 800W motor is actually a 250W motor because they have put a rating label on it that says 250W?
250W is engraved on the Bafang BBS01B motor by the manufacturer. From what I've read about the recent crackdowns and how the law appears to be enforced at street level by the police - they impound ebikes with motors rated higher than 250W and capable of speeds exceeding 25km/h, they also seem to believe all ebikes with throttles are illegal. Controller amps don't matter, you don't have to like it. I expect yet another diatribe about how throttles should be legal too. You haven't mentioned "Single point of failure" yet...


my Tongsheng
...and this could be why. Fantastic! Welcome to the mid-drive club. Quit complaining and enjoy your legal pedelec, and let @Saracen enjoy his.
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I couldn't stand up in court and pretend that Bafang motor is 250W especially if they showed me it drawing 800W of power.
Why do you persist in getting this wrong?

We are signed up to BS EN15194, the legal technical standard which determines the motor rating, NOT the actual power. Nor does it set any maximum power.

So the actual power is not a matter for any court, only compliance with the law as it stands.
.
 

Az.

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So basically you believe a 800W motor is actually a 250W motor because they have put a rating label on it that says 250W?
However you believe a 400W motor is less legal because someone hasn't put a 250W rating sticker on it? So someone riding a 400W ebike should have their ebike stopped and confiscated because of incompetent and corrupt legislation that makes zero sense.
Please don't tell me you still believe law make some sense. Law is just a number of boxes you must tick or hoops to jump through to get "legal" certificate. Yes, most of it doesn't make sense.

Bike with 250W rated power can use 500W and still be legal.
 
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Nealh

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EN15194 no where states any thing regarding controller rating out put, all it says is the motor must be rated for 250w continuous use without overheating. There is no max out put rating otherwise the likes of bosh . yamaha, et al would all be illegal as well.
 

guerney

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flecc

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Please don't tell me you still believe law make some sense. Law is just a number of boxes you must tick or hoops to jump through to get "legal" certificate. Yes, most of it doesn't make sense.
And for this subject the law can never make sense.

The fundamental behind all this is that the Laws of Physics and the Laws of Man are incompatible. Since the Laws of Physics are immutable, it is the Laws of Man that must bend to achieve any sort of compatibility.

Whether any of us like that isn't of any consequence, it is what it is.
.
 
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Az.

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Whether any of us like that isn't of any consequence, it is what it is.
Exactly. I don't like it, but we little people have very limited choices. We can comply or ignore and try to ride below radar.
Speaking of compliance I think I will have to buy a bloody sticker as I don't have displayed maximum assisted speed anywhere. :)

Interestingly insurance companies sell policies not for bikes with 250W maximum rated power. They insure bikes with 250W maximum power. A genuine mistake? Or they sell us false sense of security?
 
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flecc

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Interestingly insurance companies sell policies not for bikes with 250W maximum rated power. They insure bikes with 250W maximum power. A genuine mistake? Or they sell us false sense of security?
We are quite safe. They have chosen the wording most likely to ensure compliance, but will not attempt to oppose what the law actually is.

A similar situation arose when the European Parliament recommended that pedelecs should have whatever power the designer considered necessary to achieve the 25kph permitted, since that in effect is what EN 15194 rules.

But the EU Commission said no and overrruled, probably since that looked so like a huge loophole which would invite trouble. But of course EN 15194 is in fact a huge loophole, but conveniently hidden from ordinary mortals.
.
 

Az.

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We are quite safe. They have chosen the wording most likely to ensure compliance, but will not attempt to oppose what the law actually is.
You are quite an optimist, you know? I am not :).
This is exact wording: "the electric motor should have a maximum power output of 250 watts or less "
With third party insurance claim as high as 20m they might quite easily say: "contract is a contract and actually your bike max power goes well above 250W". What if they do that?
 

saneagle

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You are quite an optimist, you know? I am not :).
This is exact wording: "the electric motor should have a maximum power output of 250 watts or less "
With third party insurance claim as high as 20m they might quite easily say: "contract is a contract and actually your bike max power goes well above 250W". What if they do that?
That's what it says, but it's not the law and it's wrong. If it were right, just about every ebike in the UK would be illegal. That includes all bikes with Bosch, Yamaha, Brose and Shimano motors.
 
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Az.

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That's what it says, but it's not the law and it's wrong. If it were right, just about every ebike in the UK would be illegal. That includes all bikes with Bosch, Yamaha, Brose and Shimano motors.
But they don't say which bike is legal and which is not. They say what bikes are covered by their insurance and as you have said most ebikes are excluded.
 

flecc

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You are quite an optimist, you know? I am not :).
This is exact wording: "the electric motor should have a maximum power output of 250 watts or less "
With third party insurance claim as high as 20m they might quite easily say: "contract is a contract and actually your bike max power goes well above 250W". What if they do that?
They can't legally do that, they too have to comply with the law, and that also applies to the law on misleading people.
.
 

Az.

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They can't legally do that, they too have to comply with the law
Is there a law saying what insurance companies can and can't insure?
I am sure if they deny your claim you could put up a good fight, but average person probably wouldn't stand a chance.

that also applies to the law on misleading people.
I don't like what they do at all, but I can't say they mislead people. On contrary, they are very clear what they insure and what they don't.
 
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saneagle

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But they don't say which bike is legal and which is not. They say what bikes are covered by their insurance and as you have said most ebikes are excluded.
The insurance company has just copied what's on the government website. You're insured if your bike is legal.
 
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