to the dealers.....was it worth it for you....(redbridge)

[dmcgoldrick]

so would any dealers like to share any benefit from attending the demo day
any sales made or at least serious leads ?
which of your bikes did testers find suited them best ?
was there a high footfall of punters ?
were many people actually looking to buy or just enthusiasts out for a nice day out testing some new bikes when they already have a good quality ebike.....?
as it was good weather i assume the attendance was about as good as it could be.......

i expected to see lots of glowing reports for crank drive bikes considering the amount of discussion there has been on the forum in recent months, but this does not seem to have happened. in fact some are reporting hub drive were for them the better bikes......just goes to show that buyers opinions may need to be taken with a pinch of salt , and how important it is to get out and do the test riding for yourself.

obviously some major players were not present so comparisons only relevant for the bikes available.

good luck with this type of promotion and i hope there is a good pay back for your efforts and risking having new bikes becoming 'used' due to some wear and tear because of the event......
regards

 

[Woosh]

I would say it was a very worthwhile day.

We did not expect to make any concrete sales - we simply wanted to show our bikes and let customers ride them, ride others, go home and ponder. In our experience this is typically what potential customers do. We did seem to have a lot of people interested in our range on the day and we certainly had a busy day with sales yesterday.

With regard to the crank drive bikes, we do not intend to make them the one and only choice by any means, so for some of our customers they will be the best option, for others another bike in our range will be perfectly suitable whilst others again may of course prefer a bike from someone else . The feedback from customers trying the CD varied: 'interesting, excellent, very good, better than I thought, different from what I expected, not quite as good as I expected, I think I prefer the rear hub motor'. So at the end of the day if there is perhaps a bit too much enthusiasm for crank drives at the moment- mainly perhaps because of new models coming on to the market - then some moderation can only be a good thing. One thing I should point out is that anyone trying the CD towards the end of the day - after 3pm - probably suffered from a low battery. Next time we will swap them in better time!

Finally with regard to numbers, it was difficult to assess how many people turned up. It did seem like most were forum visitors, so this is obviously where they learned of the event. It would be good in future to introduce some variety - people who perhaps don't have a clue about electric bikes or had never given them a thought, people local to the area (East and North London) who don't mind a short drive and perhaps some organisations and employers hoping to encourage E- cycling - the NHS, colleges, large local firms. I know Kudos Dave did a lot of contacting in this respect, and I also did some - but no sign of anyone of this type as far as I could see. We'll have to try and improve that next year.
I think eventually 500 visitors would be good. Over that would be too crowded...but maybe I'm wrong?

What do other traders and non traders think?

Hatti

 

[Kudoscycles]

Perhaps the only downside of the day was that we were providing test rides to mainly existing pedelec converts I didn't see too many pedelec virgins.
Kudos exhibit at the Kent County Show every year and we are about to attend the Eden Project electric bike show,there we will be discussing the Why and How of electric bike ownership. Ultimately of course we hope to link both sets of people and at which point I suspect that we will then be like Holland and Germany where ebike ownership is accepted as the norm rather than niche.
For me,the day was a success,if only to meet with my customers and gain feedback. The technology and fashion of these bikes changes so quickly that it is hard to keep up. Like Hatti I was convinced and I convinced myself that the future is crank drive with speed sensor,and yet the Kudos bike that was best reviewed (based on what testers said) was the Kudos Arriba,BPM hub drive with torque sensor.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

Perhaps the only downside of the day was that we were providing test rides to mainly existing pedelec converts I didn't see too many pedelec virgins.

This seems to be the norm, true of a show I attended in the southern counties and of the former Presteigne events.

I did take my "pedelec virgin" and keen club cyclist brother to one event, but he didn't want to actually try any of the e-bikes. When asked his impression as we left, he made this comment:

"I've never seen so many fat people in one place!"

Not a good image.

 

[Woosh]

Well most of the people I saw on Sunday were NOT fat - they were either slim (generally younger ones) or 'nicely rounded' (generally older ones)!!! And of course everyone was very good looking.

So why not bring your brother along to Redbridge next year, he might enjoy it more.......?

Hatti

 

[jerrysimon]

"I've never seen so many fat people in one place!"

Funny, that made me laugh lol

I may be a little over weight but I know riding my little Brompton to work every day for the last 3+ years has made me both physically and mentally more healthy.

I rarely suffer colds now and building and riding ebikes has done wonders for my well being

I had hoped to come along to this event (I am only 50 mins away) but family duties got in the way.

Jerry

 

[flecc]

So why not bring your brother along to Redbridge next year, he might enjoy it more.......?

Hatti

I'm afraid he's past his cycling and travelling years now Hatti, residing in a sheltered warden attended home since his heart valve replacement operation at 80 years old.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Flecc,I didn't notice that Redbridge had any more 'sir been weightlifting' shapes than anywhere else. One of my customers has lost 2 stone in weight since he bought his ebike just because the ebike gets him out cycling.
What was noticeable was the age range of ebike buyers is coming down,there were many 30/40 age testing the bikes.
KudosDave

 

[dmcgoldrick]

Funny, that made me laugh lol

I may be a little over weight but I know riding my little Brompton to work every day for the last 3+ years has made me both physically and mentally more healthy.

I rarely suffer colds now and building and riding ebikes has done wonders for my well being

I had hoped to come along to this event (I am only 50 mins away) but family duties got in the way.

Jerry

hi jerry, good job you stayed away....you would easily have had the best ebike there if you had taken any of yours.......looks like the crank drive bubble has burst now a few people have tried them out side by side with some hub motored bikes. will be able to get my storck back out now without fear of thinking i am riding an inferior overpriced silent swiss made hub ebike.....ha ha....... my brompton conversion also running well (hub) and so is the wisper (hub) still for sale......
regards

 

[Taff]

For me,the day was a success,if only to meet with my customers and gain feedback. The technology and fashion of these bikes changes so quickly that it is hard to keep up. Like Hatti I was convinced and I convinced myself that the future is crank drive with speed sensor,and yet the Kudos bike that was best reviewed (based on what testers said) was the Kudos Arriba,BPM hub drive with torque sensor.
KudosDave

Hi Dave,
Your first point (above) is a massively important one but the later point is more relevant to me.
The torque sensor bikes I've tried recently seemed much more natural to ride than previous rides; hence I'm looking forward to testing the Arriba on Saturday along with the KTM and possible others.

What are the cassette and chain ring sizes for this bike?

Taff

 

[flecc]

.......looks like the crank drive bubble has burst now a few people have tried them out side by side with some hub motored bikes.

Crank drives need to be tried in the right context to see where they are best, and that Redbridge 11% steepest hill is nowhere near steep enough. Compare the two types on some 20% and 25% hills and you'll soon see a reversal of opinions from many as hub motors leave them doing most of the work. And on the odd 30% legal hub motors are useless.

So in at least two thirds of Britain hub motors are all that's necessary for most people, but in the areas with the steepest hills, the crank drive benefit of the motor being able to utilise the gears comes into it's own.

 

[dmcgoldrick]

Crank drives need to be tried in the right context to see where they are best, and that Redbridge 11% steepest hill is nowhere near steep enough. Compare the two types on some 20% and 25% hills and you'll soon see a reversal of opinions from many as hub motors leave them doing most of the work. And on the odd 30% legal hub motors are useless.

So in at least two thirds of Britain hub motors are all that's necessary for most people, but in the areas with the steepest hills, the crank drive benefit of the motor being able to utilise the gears comes into it's own.

not for most ebikers ...... but maybe this is where you need a crank drive.... Britain's top 10 toughest cycle climbs | Travel | guardian.co.uk

 

[trex]

......looks like the crank drive bubble has burst now a few people have tried them out side by side with some hub motored bikes.
regards

The 'hill' at Redbridge was about 100m long, the steep (10%) section was about 50m long, not remotely like any real hill. Talking about burst bubble is prematured, crank drives will always be more efficient on hills, hub drives will always easier to handle because you don't have to worry about selecting the right gears. For me, cyclists should always prefer crank drives.

 

[hopper_rider]

The event showed me that in addition to a large range of cycles and prices, price alone was not necessarily a good indicator of suitability. Actually from a short test, the bike that seemed to suit me the best was one of the more competitively priced models.

It all went to show me that it is a good idea to attend an event such as this and try out a range of models. Assumptions may be challenged.

 

[dmcgoldrick]

The 'hill' at Redbridge was about 100m long, the steep (10%) section was about 50m long, not remotely like any real hill. Talking about burst bubble is prematured, crank drives will always be more efficient on hills, hub drives will always easier to handle because you don't have to worry about selecting the right gears. For me, cyclists should always prefer crank drives.

if i am reading all the feedback correctly it appears that ebike selection of either crank or hub is more difficult than ever.
hub looks good at least up to 11% slope .......quicker on flat and slopes but using more watts per mile ..
but crank will show advantage at some level to be determined, presumably taking account of rider input, when steeper and will continue to assist over 20% slope when hub motors are no longer assisting......
this still seems to be quite a grey area as to where this switch over point is,with lots of factors affecting rider perception....and therefore many opinions. rider fitness and optimum use of gear selection having a big impact on how the bike performs.

so, i live in a hilly area (perthshire) and have hub bikes. the only substantially long 20% plus tracks around here are on the mountain bike trails which i no longer visit. i dont think in the whole of the uk that there are many 20% road climbs over 5km long, and at 30% you can probably count on one hand....(for roads, using this description of scale of slope, 45-50% is actually vertical.......)
there are plenty of uphill average 10-12% long tarmac routes around where i am and the hub bikes does fine until the battery gets down to about 1/3rd and the rider has some miles already in the legs so both battery and rider are giving less input. i have tried bosch system on this type of terrain and find no advantage over hub but have probably not been on more than 13 or 14% slope on one.my understanding of slope described in this way is that an average of 10-12% slopes over long distances are very typical of many mountain pass routes in europe.
have not tried the new panasonic motor or the grace bikes with 48 v system or grace mx but they are next on the list.....
enjoy testing the bikes....
regards

 

[flecc]

i dont think in the whole of the uk that there are many 20% road climbs over 5km long, and at 30% you can probably count on one hand....

The hill length really isn't material once over a few metres, legal hub motor e-bikes simply don't cope well at over 14% and for most they are hopeless at 20% and over. Likewise for 30%, which in short length instances are not uncommon in the hillier areas of the UK. As ever though, usually only those living locally know of their existence or need to use them.

 

[103Alex1]

^^ it is true. Unfortunately the 20-30% slopes standing between you and where you want or need to be are the ones which wind up being the tail that wags the eBike dog for those in hilly areas and roads steep enough to make riding any legal crank drive an endurance test are many in some parts of the country. Hill length is very material on a crank drive - because rider effort has to be input in a far more tiring manner than sustaining unpowered cycling above assist limits on a gradual slope, even with a "good" hill climber from the 'amnesty range' delivering motor power.

That is when you eventually realize and are forced to accept that despite your hopes, a hub drive motor "throwing power at it" on those wretched stretches is actually the only fix that really works properly without your fitness level and stamina being trained significantly. The bottom line is - legal eBikes, crank drive or not, will not flatten serious hills without serious rider physical input. If you've long stretches of them to navigate on a regular basis and no vehicular alternatives then there are several options :

1) Get a higher powered bike that can actually handle them (registered if that's what it takes and forget about the off-road trails unless you're willing to disregard the rules and run associated risks)

2) Join a spinning class or go into serious enough physical training and conditioning to cope with the limitations of an underpowered 'amnesty range' bike (and they are for those steep slopes seriously underpowered). You're going to have to stay seriously fit and burn a shed load of calories if you don't want to have to keep stopping for a rest, motor or no motor; or

3) get used to taking public transport, driving, cadging lifts or whatever and forget about the cycling thing. You're living in the wrong place for it if you don't want to break the law and aren't fit enough to take a limited assist bike "up the 'Alps' ".

It's pretty simple really !

 

[flecc]

Good summary of the true position Alex, legal e-bikes have very real limitations and are only a universal answer in the less challenging areas.

 

[dmcgoldrick]

The hill length really isn't material once over a few metres, legal hub motor e-bikes simply don't cope well at over 14% and for most they are hopeless at 20% and over. Likewise for 30%, which in short length instances are not uncommon in the hillier areas of the UK. As ever though, usually only those living locally know of their existence or need to use them.

hi flecc, used the 5km distance as there is lots of data in the cycling world on climbs of this distance. less than that i dont know of any data.....impossible to know how many 'short blips' there are which are horribly steep....
when i look for a 'day out' route the elevation and distance are important factors that i consider in my planning to ensure i don't have to walk and push for any long distance due to having used all the battery.
i have a very good idea of the watt per mile usage on my bikes over different terrain and this is very useful when planning a new route.
equally i can accommodate pushing for a short distance on a 20-30% slope if it beats the bike and me.....

is 14% off the top of your head or an evaluated figure.? my own experience with hub would support that the motor gives up at this level of slope unless its just a short blip... tricky to know because depends on how much effort rider puts in at that particular point. on the storck the motor is silent so difficult to know just at what point it stops assisting especially if in granny gear which i can keep the bike going in steeper than the 14%.......wisper just stops and is too heavy to keep going......small quiet motor in small wheel on brompton does very well , probably a little better than 14% but not sure......
regards

 

[Deleted member 4366]

There's many factors that affect motors' climbing power and there's many types of motor. The ubiquitous and humble Bafang SWX I've seen running at as low as 12 amps max and as high as 18 amps, which makes a huge difference in torque (climbing power). Then you get the much larger Ezee Torq at 20 amps, which has even more torque, and the new generation of bikes with the larger BPM an CST motors like the BH Emotion Neos and Kudos Ariba running at god knows what current (probably around 20amps). These bikes don't compare with a SWX or DD Storck Raddar when it comes to climbing power. The code 17 BPM has masses of torque because it's wound for about 12mph, and it will blitz any Bosch or Panasonic in any climbing contest on hills above 10%. It can go right down to about 4 mph producing very high torque without stalling out. What I'm trying to say is that you can't generalise by motor type (crank vs hub). You can only compare specific motors under specific conditions. All the motors I have mentioned have appeared on bikes with EN 15194 certificates, so you would consider them legal.