UK petition to raise cut-off limit

Michael Price

Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2018
57
55
The simple fact is that you can have an ebike with a top speed of up to 30mph and legally ride it on the roads. It’s just that you also have to register it as a motor vehicle and have insurance and the correct driving licence. No problem.
and not go on cycle paths - oh - and wear a motorcycle type helmet
 
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Ja_T

Just Joined
May 24, 2018
4
1
Type approving such bikes doesn't look easy and pre-built versions are expensive. Cheaper just to buy a Nui e-moped or similar such vehicle. I like the idea of having a 30mph e-bike as long is it's strong enough, has good breaks etc. I wouldn't mind riding it on the road only and wearing a helmet. Don't see why it should have indicators and such though, what's wrong with clear hand signals at least you won't accidentally leave your hand out after you have made your turn lol, there was a time when you could still get your motorcycle mot if indicators weren't fitted and rely on hand signals.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,713
5,735
The European Union
Maybe you could have a referendum on pedelec speed limits?

...

Frankly I would like the speed limit dropped but not the 250W nominative. Most hub motor winds limit top speed unrestricted to 27-33 kph. Mid drives depend on gearing but most peter out at around 45 kph.

Then we could have a speed limit on bicycle paths of 15 kph like they do in Spain. That limit drops to 10 kph when there is a lot of pedestrians near the bike path and 5 kph when it is a shared path. That is a very intelligent system, if you want to go fast then go play with the cars on the road else limit your speed.

Apparently if you are very rich you can buy a car that can do 480 kph, unfortunately in France motorways have a 130 kph speed limit so it is kind of a waste those 350 extra kph. How many cyclists could you kill if you ran into the Tour de France peloton at 480 kph? Answer: all of them...
 

Chris M

Pedelecer
Dec 31, 2018
56
68
Going slightly off topic but perhaps capturing the mood of the law makers.
In an effort to reduce traffic accident deaths and injuries, from 2022 it is proposed that all new cars will be unable to go above the speed limit (unless you put your foot to the floorboards) and the car will keep a record of what speed you were travelling at together with the speed limit. Like most cruise controls it won't put the brakes on so you will be able to break the speed limit down steep hills. It will be interesting to see how this develops over the next couple of years. I expect lots of moaning and I wonder if new car sales will be high before this restriction and very low afterwards. Of course most cars built in the last ten years could have this restriction retro fitted fairly easily.
Decreasing or relaxing any regulations doesn't seem likely where there is any risk of reduced safety to road users.
 
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youngoldbloke

Finding my (electric) wheels
Apr 27, 2018
19
1
71
South West
Maybe you could have a referendum on pedelec speed limits?

...

Then we could have a speed limit on bicycle paths of 15 kph like they do in Spain. That limit drops to 10 kph when there is a lot of pedestrians near the bike path and 5 kph when it is a shared path. That is a very intelligent system, if you want to go fast then go play with the cars on the road else limit your speed.

Apparently if you are very rich you can buy a car that can do 480 kph, unfortunately in France motorways have a 130 kph speed limit so it is kind of a waste those 350 extra kph. How many cyclists could you kill if you ran into the Tour de France peloton at 480 kph? Answer: all of them...
The EU/UK assistance limit of 25kph is NOT fast. Especially for an e-road bike. It may well be an unsuitable speed to ride at on a shared path, so yes, limit your speed. An assisted limit for e-road bikes of 30kph, as in the US, would be much more realistic and enable the users of e-road bikes to keep up on rides with fellow riders on unassisted road bikes. Of course - there is no limit unassisted above 25kph anyway if one still has the leg power required.
I don't really understand your final point about 480kph cars?
 
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Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
7,864
2,967
56
West Sx RH
Problem is vehicles drivers can't anticipate speed very well especially a bicycle travelling at speed exception may be a lycra lout. I have my assist set to 20mph and a lot of cars just can't anticipate /judge my speed as I approach junctions, the main issue here is they are not willing to give way as driving styles gets worse.
I try and keep eye contact as I negotiate junctions and always have my brakes covered in readiness to stop or slow down.
 
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ebiker99

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 17, 2019
359
118
Problem is vehicles drivers can't anticipate speed very well especially a bicycle travelling at speed exception may be a lycra lout. I have my assist set to 20mph and a lot of cars just can't anticipate /judge my speed as I approach junctions, the main issue here is they are not willing to give way as driving styles gets worse.
I try and keep eye contact as I negotiate junctions and always have my brakes covered in readiness to stop or slow down.
I totally agree, and I think many drivers are losing any respect for cyclists because of the way lycra louts cycle along country lanes in packs without making any attempt to allow cars to pass, the way some cyclists ignore the law and cycle through lights on red etc etc and also the actions of idiots such as the one reported yesterday:
The use of shared resources, such as roads and pavements, relies on mutual respect by the users and this is a 2 way thing.
I think you're very wise in the way you're cycling.
 
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Ja_T

Just Joined
May 24, 2018
4
1
I totally agree, and I think many drivers are losing any respect for cyclists because of the way lycra louts cycle along country lanes in packs without making any attempt to allow cars to pass, the way some cyclists ignore the law and cycle through lights on red etc etc and also the actions of idiots such as the one reported yesterday:
The use of shared resources, such as roads and pavements, relies on mutual respect by the users and this is a 2 way thing.
I think you're very wise in the way you're cycling.
The same problem exists with pedestrians on shared cycle paths and footpaths, the average pedestrian wanders down the cycle path without a care, mothers 3 abreast with pushchairs etc, etc. I will always give pedestrians right of way and take care around them but shared cycle paths can be frustrating. I generally ride in the road but then sometimes I hear shouts from motorists saying "use the bloody cycle path", I prefer cycle paths shared with the road than the pedestrian walkways.
 
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youngoldbloke

Finding my (electric) wheels
Apr 27, 2018
19
1
71
South West
I totally agree, and I think many drivers are losing any respect for cyclists because of the way lycra louts cycle along country lanes in packs without making any attempt to allow cars to pass, the way some cyclists ignore the law and cycle through lights on red etc etc and also the actions of idiots such as the one reported yesterday:
The use of shared resources, such as roads and pavements, relies on mutual respect by the users and this is a 2 way thing.
I think you're very wise in the way you're cycling.
Maybe so, but what has this to do with raising the assisted speed limit for ebikes? The person on a bike involved in the incident in London that you refer to could hardly be described as a lycra lout. Just a lout riding a bike, just as louts drive cars http://news.met.police.uk/news/boy-16-arrested-on-suspicion-of-attempted-murder-after-17-year-old-dragged-under-car-380891
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
42,893
18,841
The EU/UK assistance limit of 25kph is NOT fast. Especially for an e-road bike.
Your last sentence shows the misunderstanding. The e-power is a concession intended as assistance for those who need it. It's not about enabling anyone to perform like a roadie, and that is specifically why there is a utility riding assist speed limit. Indeed that was spelt out by one of the early legislators for this standard.

The problem this thread illustrates is that "e-biking" is now misusing the concession by large numbers treating e-bikes as a new class of motor vehicle. They are not motor vehicles, nor are they e-bikes. They are pedelecs and are just bicycles with a degree of assistance.
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youngoldbloke

Finding my (electric) wheels
Apr 27, 2018
19
1
71
South West
Your last sentence shows the misunderstanding. The e-power is a concession intended as assistance for those who need it. It's not about enabling anyone to perform like a roadie, and that is specifically why there is a utility riding assist speed limit. Indeed that was spelt out by one of the early legislators for this standard.

The problem this thread illustrates is that "e-biking" is now misusing the concession by large numbers treating e-bikes as a new class of motor vehicle. They are not motor vehicles, nor are they e-bikes. They are pedelecs and are just bicycles with a degree of assistance.
.
I think the misunderstanding remains yours. Electrically assisted road bikes are now a fact of life. Yes, they are 'bicycles with a degree of assistance'. I have ridden road bikes for almost 60 years. I suppose that makes me a 'roadie' in your eyes. I also wear appropriate cycling clothing so perhaps a 'lycra lout' too. I now have restricted blood supply to the muscles in both legs. I now need assistance. Is it unreasonable for me to try to continue my cycling activity in the way I'm accustomed to? I'm not a 'utility cyclist' or an MTB-er, so 15.5mph/25kph cut off limit for assistance seems an inappropriately low figure to me.
What is a 'utility riding assist'?
 

ebiker99

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 17, 2019
359
118
With just 555 signatures this is going nowhere very slowly:
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
42,893
18,841
I think the misunderstanding remains yours.
Not at all, since I know the origins of this worldwide law. It is what the legislators say it is, not what you'd like it to be

What is a 'utility riding assist'?
It's the cycling speed the legislators see as normal for cycling as transport, the most commonly seen cycling throughout the world.

Britain is an odd one out, due to the way adult utility cycling almost completely disappeared here in the 1960s and 1970s with the rise in motor vehicle ownership.

Volume cycling returned with the mountain bike from 1980 on and a subsequent increase in road cycling, all of it sporting in nature. So in the absence of utility cycling the most common road cycling speed here became around 20 mph, far faster than before the cycling decline in the 1950s when most cycling was centred around 12 mph.

Meanwhile almost all of the rest of the world continued with their slower utility cycling. The other odd one out is the USA where adult cycling was never transport in the past, always only done for fun or sport.
.
 
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youngoldbloke

Finding my (electric) wheels
Apr 27, 2018
19
1
71
South West
- that being the case distinction should be made between 'utility' and 'sport', and the cut off limit for 'sport' e-bikes raised to a more realistic level.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
42,893
18,841
- that being the case distinction should be made between 'utility' and 'sport', and the cut off limit for 'sport' e-bikes raised to a more realistic level.
You still aren't getting it. There is no provision for sport e-bikes in most of the world.

There is in Switzerland, and within the EU in Germany, Denmark and The Netherlands. There they can have the S class high speed e-bikes, allowed up to 500 watts rating and up to 28 mph assist. But they have to be registered with insurance and a rear number plate and are not allowed on cycle paths.

We can only have those in in Britain if registered and ridden only on roads as a moped with suitable driving licence and all other motor vehicle stuff, since the assist speed is similar. It follows that your petition request will never be allowed, since it will mean dual treatment for the same thing.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not personally against a higher limit, I'm just trying for the umpteenth time this issue has been raised to show why it will never happen.
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youngoldbloke

Finding my (electric) wheels
Apr 27, 2018
19
1
71
South West
I get it - and I accept it will not happen - just saying a distinction should be made. I'll just have to put up with the pain to ride in excess of 15mph, or break the law.
It's not my petition BTW
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
42,893
18,841
or break the law.
That's what most wanting higher assist speed do. It's a pity that the S class was elevated to 500 watts and 45 kph (28 mph) assist due to German public demand.

Originally the S class bikes were just ordinary 250 watt pedelecs with a higher assist limit and only capable of about 20mph assist on the flat before running out of steam. That was sensible since they didn't the attract the attention of any authorities.
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