Will the end of full speed throttles in January 2016 cause a rush to buy.

[anotherkiwi]

OK then shouldn't posts about throttles should be off in a subject all of their own "e-bikes, throttles & co" in the much same way s-pedelecs are?

I take you on your (very trustworthy) word that throttles improve security, I haven't tried one for obvious reasons. Having almost been run over by a pedelec "user"* this summer (imagine a parking lot with huge amounts of free space...) I continue to think that a public menace on a pedelec or on an e-bike with throttle will remain a public menace...

*replace "user" with colourful description of your choice

 

[shemozzle999]

I live on a continent where a bike is a bike and a moped is a moped. Black - white, no shades of gray.

If you have a throttle you are riding a moped. If you don't have a throttle you are riding a pedelec. Throttles do not promote the sale of pedelecs they promote the sale of a different class of vehicule - which has its place. But is that place on the bicycle path? Here on the continent mopeds belong on the road and pedelecs belong on the cycle path.

Several million people are living just fine here on the continent without a throttle on their pedelec. Of course you have the odd one here and there who has added a highly disguised throttle - often they also have a dongle or other means of getting greater speed or greater power from their moped disguised as a pedelec. People will always break the law. Maybe I am breaking the law by having my max speed set to 27 kph even though that speed is within the tollerance laid down in the law?

Maybe one day soon there will be a crackdown on pedelecs with throttles (there already is one going on in Spain as I write) and on kits because the silly Chinese insist on adding a trottle in every box. That will be bad for pedelec sales and the future of the pedelec because it will take out of the market all those who cannot afford to buy a factory made pedelec.

Executive summary:

Throttles are bad for pedelecs. Throttles are good for mopeds. If you need a throttle buy a moped.

P.S. throttles are the only reason you need brake cuttoff switches on a pedelec too getting rid of both in the kit box would bring the price of kits down.

Fortunately our Government disagree with you and have taken the sensible step to allow throttles on EAPC's in the future.

 

[flecc]

OK then shouldn't posts about throttles should be off in a subject all of their own "e-bikes, throttles & co" in the much same way s-pedelecs are?

No, quite simply because they are effectively the same thing. Pedelecs have throttles too, exposing how nonsensical the EU position is. Examples:

A torque sensor is a fully acting throttle, merely foot operated instead of hand. In fact good torque sensors are even more of a fully acting throttle than the crude twistgrip Hall effect ones usually fitted.

Power level switches on pedelecs are also throttles, often with more discernable power stages than the average twistgrip Hall effect throttle which only has about two or three practical levels on the road. Power level switches on various pedelecs have from 3 to 9 levels, so having a greater throttle range than twistgrip throttles.

And here is another illustration of the daftness of the EU position. Many pedelecs have been and still are operated by rotation sensors rather than torque sensors. Those rotation sensors kick in the full motor power from a standstill and that is entirely legal. A twistgrip which can feed the power in more gently is illegal. How idiotic is that?

As I posted previously, the EU obviously misunderstands the position. If only those who set the laws would experience what an e-bike throttle is in practice, they'd realise how mistaken they are and drop their ill-informed bigoted position. Their current thinking is clearly motorcycle in origin, the image of twisting a throtte and increased power kicking in. As said, a pedelec throttle can only reduce the allowed power, it cannot increase it beyond the allowed level.
.

 

[shambolic]

If we are talking about definitions the word 'Moped' it is a derivation of the two words Motor and Pedal as in pedal cycle, so strictly speaking all Pedelecs are 'Mopeds' . the fact that the law basically classes small powered Motorbikes (note the derivation again) as a Moped and doesn't require pedals on it throws the meaning to the wind. So anyone's black and white ideas about this is a Moped this is a Pedelec is purely subjective.
Really as far as people's feeling on how the law should be (and it seems unclear how it actually is). It is entirely down to your own interests. If you are disabled and have trouble pedaling you are likely pro throttle; if you have empathy with those who are disabled or are aware it could happen to anyone including yourself you are likely pro throttle. If you are fully able bodied and not empathetic with those who are not you may not be pro throttle; on the other hand you may be lazy or have a vested business interest like those that lobbied to have throttles removed etc.

To suggest that wanting a throttle is wrong is just being a little too one sided in one's view.

 

[danielrlee]

All a bit of a 'storm in a teacup'

Totally.

I just heard a report on LBC that across many parts of Britain the police will no longer respond to thefts and burglaries from next month. Do you really think they give a monkeys whether our bikes have a throttle or not?

 

[shambolic]

Totally.

I just heard a report on LBC that across many parts of Britain the police will no longer respond to thefts and burglaries from next month. Do you really think they give a monkeys whether our bikes have a throttle or not?

They already don't in these parts

 

[oldtom]

Totally.

I just heard a report on LBC that across many parts of Britain the police will no longer respond to thefts and burglaries from next month. Do you really think they give a monkeys whether our bikes have a throttle or not?

It's the road to anarchy when the criminal element is allowed to do whatever they want with complete disregard for laws, rules and regulations. When the forces of law and order decide they have insufficient resources to respond to particular types of lawbreaking, society is in big trouble.

It seems nobody cares any more about decency, right and wrong until it detrimentally affects them at a personal level and then they seek to apportion blame. Not for the first time am I reminded of the words of Martin Niemöller:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Tom

 

[lordvincent]

They already don't in these parts

I received a commiseration letter from the local police (Met) when my car was stolen a few years ago. Maybe they won't even do that in future.

 

[anotherkiwi]

So I opened the big cardboard box full of bits and bobs and tried imagining the thumb throttle that lies there in the bottom as a security device. No luck... A real throttle, half twist or full twist maybe. With a central motor so that it isn't fighting for attention with gear changer or other handlebar device. With nice regular power delivery and no risk of jamming wide open hence becoming a danger device rather than a security device. Plastic made in China thumb throttle, nope, nada, never...

I also have some difficulty when I compare how my PAS only bike works when compared to descriptions I read here. The power is delivered gradually not all at once. I get around in my street clothes just turning the pedals without applying any force - even going up hills when in level 5. Or I can go into full exercise mode and pedal like a madman till I spin out and zoom around everywhere at an average speed over 26 kph. And by some strange magic the motor cuts out as soon as the pedals are not moving forward, I mean instantly which isn't much fun when some external event stops you pedaling when going uphill (dog, pedestrian stepping out from behind a van...) because you lose all power and if you are in the wrong gear you have to launch the machine all over again.

 

[flecc]

I also have some difficulty when I compare how my PAS only bike works when compared to descriptions I read here. The power is delivered gradually not all at once.

There's a lot of variation in how PAS sensing works, some are gentle, some kick in everything immediately.

Torque sensing pedelecs often have the full power available instantly with a hard pedal thrust, I could slightly wheelie my Panasonic unit one with single hard thrust to get away fast from the lights.

The point I'm making is that either way is legal on pedelecs, but having safe control by using gentle throttle openings with a hand throttle is unaccountably banned by the EU.
.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

And here is another illustration of the daftness of the EU position. Many pedelecs have been and still are operated by rotation sensors rather than torque sensors. Those rotation sensors kick in the full motor power from a standstill and that is entirely legal. A twistgrip which can feed the power in more gently is illegal. How idiotic is that?

Absolutely Flecc a massively good point well made!

I, with others in the industry, are still quietly fighting this ludicrous law. Gradually we seem to be getting support from some in the BAGB, which will give us a far louder lobbying voice.

I supply the trade with Wisper bikes with torque sensors and Bosch powered Riese and Muller bikes so have no particular axe to grind. In my opinion the law is petty and, as Flecc says, quite daft.

It seems that the DfT does not see any issue with safety, nor does anyone else as far as I can ascertain. Indeed most think it adds to the safety of a bike and there does not seem to be any evidence to the contrary. I still am at a loss as to why has the UK been pushed into making this crazy change?

The throttle ban is being driven by the motor cycle industry, those dyed in the wool cyclists who in many cases are still anti electric bike and those with a vested interest in the big brand mid motor systems (although most of these do have an independent throttle to 6k/h).

Although still not clear, it now seems for a fee of fifty five quid, anyone can get a single vehicle approval and continue to use the throttle after Jan 1. To get the single vehicle approval, it is being said that, all an applicant needs to do is show the bike's EN15194 certificate!!

The throttle ban adds nothing to safety, makes cycling less inclusive, adds another layer of red tape, is a tax on cycling and discriminates against those who maybe need the extra assistance.

I am sure I have covered a lot of what has already been said, please accept my apologies.

All the best

David

 

[Ken Ferguson]

I am assuming that all the froth generated in this thread has been in vain?

The updated EAPC guidelines on the Government website state as follows

EAPC requirements
The requirements are:

• the bike must have pedals that can be used to propel it
• the electric motor shouldn’t be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling more than 15.5mph
• the motor shouldn’t have a maximum power output of more than 250 watts

The bike must also have a plate with the details about the manufacturer. It must also display either:

• the motor’s power output or the manufacturer
• the voltage of the battery or maximum speed of the bike

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

There is no mention of throttles whatever and as my E Rider bikes meet this specification I am assuming there is no impediment to continuing to sell them without modification?

Ken

 

[trex]

I am assuming that all the froth generated in this thread has been in vain?

it's clear that a full power throttle is a desirable feature.
it seems to me that vendors that have bikes without throttle or bikes with only starting aid would like to make the most of this change in law. I can't honestly see how the police would go after an e-biker with a full throttle post Jan 2016. On what ground? an MP's comment about type approval? The throttle is a power limiting device, it does not make the bike go faster.

 

[shemozzle999]

Absolutely Flecc a massively good point well made!

I, with others in the industry, are still quietly fighting this ludicrous law. Gradually we seem to be getting support from some in the BAGB, which will give us a far louder lobbying voice.

I supply the trade with Wisper bikes with torque sensors and Bosch powered Riese and Muller bikes so have no particular axe to grind. In my opinion the law is petty and, as Flecc says, quite daft.

It seems that the DfT does not see any issue with safety, nor does anyone else as far as I can ascertain. Indeed most think it adds to the safety of a bike and there does not seem to be any evidence to the contrary. I still am at a loss as to why has the UK been pushed into making this crazy change?

The throttle ban is being driven by the motor cycle industry, those dyed in the wool cyclists who in many cases are still anti electric bike and those with a vested interest in the big brand mid motor systems (although most of these do have an independent throttle to 6k/h).

Although still not clear, it now seems for a fee of fifty five quid, anyone can get a single vehicle approval and continue to use the throttle after Jan 1. To get the single vehicle approval, it is being said that, all an applicant needs to do is show the bike's EN15194 certificate!!

The throttle ban adds nothing to safety, makes cycling less inclusive, adds another layer of red tape, is a tax on cycling and discriminates against those who maybe need the extra assistance.

I am sure I have covered a lot of what has already been said, please accept my apologies.

All the best

David

http://europa.eu/!kv34xX


This is the person to convince that throttles should be allowed for all the reasons you stated as she and her department is the only body that determines the definition of an EPAC.

You could contact her directly and ask her to provide an explanation as to why they are specifically denied.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Thanks Shemozzle, not sure whether we have had this contact, we will write either way.

Best regards, David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I am assuming that all the froth generated in this thread has been in vain?

The updated EAPC guidelines on the Government website state as follows

EAPC requirements
The requirements are:

• the bike must have pedals that can be used to propel it
• the electric motor shouldn’t be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling more than 15.5mph
• the motor shouldn’t have a maximum power output of more than 250 watts

The bike must also have a plate with the details about the manufacturer. It must also display either:

• the motor’s power output or the manufacturer
• the voltage of the battery or maximum speed of the bike

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

There is no mention of throttles whatever and as my E Rider bikes meet this specification I am assuming there is no impediment to continuing to sell them without modification?

Ken

Hi Ken,

They have got it wrong, but what's new? They are completely and utterly useless. I don't think there is a single e-bike out there that has a power output of less then 250W! And there is no doubt at all that throttle will not be legal after the 1st January 2016 unless we manage to shift them. I have been told by a spokesman of the MCIA that they will recommend that any company found selling bikes with full throttle should be reported to the Trading Standards Authority, be aware.

All the best, David

 

[oldtom]

it's clear that a full power throttle is a derisable feature.

As far as I know Trex, the adjective you have used before the word 'feature' isn't a word.

That leaves readers two choices: (a) derisible or (b) desirable.

They each mean something very different from the other!

Tom

 

[trex]

finger trouble is apparently early sign of senility.
Thank you oldtom.

 

[anotherkiwi]

And the address for contact:

COMMISSIONER Violeta Bulc
European Commission
Rue de la Loi / Wetstraat 200
1049 Brussels
Belgium

 

[Wisper Bikes]

T

And the address for contact:

COMMISSIONER Violeta Bulc
European Commission
Rue de la Loi / Wetstraat 200
1049 Brussels
Belgium

Thanks!