Steb

This smacks of the brave new 21st century manufactured fake world we're growing into in which it becomes about marketing not truth or anything intrinsic. Treating the electorate like sheep that have to be conned into whats good for them is potentially more patronising (than suggesting their thick which, frankly, many brexiters are, when not insincere). It also sets a dangerous presedent in which youre forever up against the Mcdonalds and boris' of the world. Far better to treat them like responsible subjects in lives where they live the consequences of decisions including brexit

Me too, but if you lived in Amsterdam, with many great cycle paths and cycling infrastructure (instead of a town in England with one potholed knobbly shoulder less road jammed with irate commuters in cars) it could have been very different

one has to worry about the mental state of the electorate. they also buy lies about immigration, the nhs and almost everything else on a regular basis. from sneering, blatant liars like reese mog. perceived self interest (as with immigration) and all sorts of jingoism no doubt comes into it. im not sure what will change that, I'm watching with interest as brexit goes pear shaped to see if anything changes.

for a more balanced adult response, most brexiteers I've spoken too invariably speak about immigration. much as you and peter have. and most when challenged with facts that contradict their assertion that immigration was the reason for the suffering of the poor in uk become defensive. the reason for the suffering of the poor tin the uk (lack of housing, health care, social care) is - to state the obvious - underinvestment by consecutive pro business governments who prioritise tax cuts to corporations that appoint politicians to their boards after their political careers (much as Osborne, or blair). and so it becomes a country with American levels of tax and in which thoroughly disingenuous politicians promise Swedish levels of health, social care to the citizens knowing they will blame some third party (in this case the eu, immigrants) once that becomes clearly unachievable. I feel bad for having to say all this because its become clichéd. but its nonetheless true. what you and peter have illustrated over the past two pages is how central to brexit thinking immigration is. It is a red herring. a distraction. you have been played for fools by the likes of reese mog, farage, boris, may. you shouldn't be upset with me or immigrants. I don't quite know how to get it across how much you've been manipulated by uk politicans, new labour or tory who's central agenda is about spending less on the electorate.

methinks the lady doth protest too much. are you really going back to the living room of a one bed in Watford and is that book an imaginary construct?

oh now i most certainly will: go on...smear away brexitter, show us all the ugliness that's behind that fake "rational" tory mask..

the brexit movement is/was blatantly xenophobic. you don't do yourself any favours by trying to make my comments about it comments about the uk. that deliberate attempt at distortion on your part really does say a great deal about you. trying to ascribe to me your own xenophobic prejudice won't wash here. perhaps you should try to write to the sun or the express. the kind of attempted smearing you engage in may have more of an audience there.

speaking as a skilled immigrant, who know many other skilled immigrants, well - I would point out that choosing to migrate is also (for most mainly) a moral, existential decision. Would I have migrated to an inward looking, racist uk under the leadership of a xenophobic toad like farage who is happy to let refugees drown. no, neither would many I know. there are other places to go. what I would point out to any English citizen is that a large reason why migrants come here is (soon perhaps was) its liberal tradition, which translates (soon translated) into a vibrant cosmopolitan culture. You shouldn't be looking at the value of the pound to determine the damage brexit is doint, you should interview a few non-british and ask them what they think about the new self-centred, inward looking, xenophobic culture that is taking hold here. that's the real damage.

Stating the obvious, but:immigrants to the UK contribute more in taxes than the services they consume. However, I am grateful to you for illustrating my point by, as a brexiters, again parading that old xenophobic lie. Take away the immigrants and the hard up in the UK would loose a significant number of their nurses, doctors, children's teachers, and be much worse off

This whitewashing of the brexit campaign, pun intended and made nice and explicit for the benefit of brexiters challenged levels of intuitive nouse, is ironic indeed. Where were you when Nige posture in front of posters filled with streams of migrants or anyone interviewed made it blatantly clear it was about the fabricated fake news that immigrants took houses, school places, health care etc?

I see, a bit like the war on terror? That turned out all right..

Well, the entire nightmare came about as a result of a contrived simplistic question (do you want to destroy you and your children's livelihoods by threatening to cut all ties with your larger more civilised neighbour) asked by the utterly insincere of the utterly uninformed. So, yes, in a sense less disingenuous pandering to 'simple questions' seem spot on

'it will be all right on the night' does sound a rock solid premise for gambling the country's future on. Seriously, brexit seems like crack cocaine, it makes otherwise sentient intelligent souls come out with stuff king julien in penguins of Madagascar would find challenging.

that is interesting, apparently Sweden 46th highest, Norway 102nd (compared to UK 123d) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate of course there is also the cliché about culture and self awareness (that those who have that introject anger and are more likely to become suicidal, while those who don't are more likely to project it and invade foreign countries, completely fook up the world, cause refugee crises and then blame the eu for it. naturally I wouldn't dream of accusing a and enlightened place like this of that..)

interesting article, in the bigger picture (I mean in the presence of repellant slime like reese mog, boris or may) I rather fancy merkel, her response to the migrant crisis was at least compassionate

yup, the social contract is desperately flawed in the uk, but still better than much that passes as states elsewhere or cons we pay for otherwise

In the Anglo saxon world where greed is good and runaway narcissism creates self serving freaks like trump or boris, yes, no one wants to pay and everyone wants everything. In Scandinavian countries paying tax is much more acceptable, and the happiness index much higher.

no its not, the poor have lower life expectancy than the rich, as one would expect. I'm not really hung up with the specific case, more the general principle. But whether they felt hard done by has little bearing on the injustice.

this is really what it gets back to for me, the rich arranging their lives and the poor paying for it, the next time anyone complains about the house of lords bear in mind what you said about the chairman, after all it is simply about "backhanders and charity" on a different scale isn't it?

you seem to forget that they were his "servants" - one of whom was "working into her eighties", the other "dying of prostate cancer two years short of retirement age" - while he was "retired". that may seem a level playing field to you, it doesn't to me. it about more than "backhanders", its about whether we get to live our lives in a more equal shared reality.

you mean robin hood keeping most of the money himself and working the little band of brothers to death serving his needs? the snag with this morality is that what goes around really does come around (as you will likely find out if you get old in a conservative England and the nurse doesn't come after you soiled the bed the fourth time)

Life is not only a financial zero sum equation. Read about the Chinese contaminated baby food scandal(or spend some time in the third world), the infrastructure the EU provides allow for a degree of civilisation

Yup, nature has a way of dealing with the ignorant,also in an uncaring way, as the electorate are discovering.

That would be true, and potentially lovely in a an adolescent post modern we'll always have Paris kind of way, if the soap opera didn't involve nuclear weapons, drowning refugees, foreign invasions, protectionism, racism, etc

Yes, I vaguely like the liberal tradition, individualism of Anglo saxon culture, the angst, emptiness and flights into states of temporary insanity like brexit or trump I can do without