Does anyone know if speed cameras respond to bicycles? I am sure I read somewhere that a cyclist managed to do 45 mph through a 30 mph camera and fired the camera,bit difficult to prosecute without a number plate!

Dave

Kudoscycles

 

Heh that's true. I saw a news report the other day that police camera and CCTV technology is being beaten by criminals using those pocket keyring laser pointer things.. the police are saying it's a growing problem in many areas and if someone points one of those pocket laser pointers at the camera it just totally blocks out the image (not that you'd be able to do that while riding or driving 30mph through a 20mph limit!). They even had some problems with planes and police helicopters, same thing, criminals/gangs pointed the lasers at the them and they nearly crashed.

KirstinS is in trouble then, as his strava recorded a speed of 325mph last week

 

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/13827-325mph-my-8fun-250w-kit.html

 

Ah..yes...but that was as we concluded, he drifted into a parallel universe briefly, and blamed it on speed bumps to avoid the attention of the quantum physics boffs.................

Very good revenue raiser is the 20mph limit, under the guise of 'Road Safety'. Spend more time looking at your speedometer than the road ahead....

I have a few of Lizzies parks in my local, the 20mph limit is rigorously enforced, cyclists get caught out on a daily basis.

 

I agree, motorists will spend more time checking the speedo.

I'd rather everyone looked at the road ahead. There will be more rear enders especially in fixed camera spots.

 

Lets see a proper scientific study of driver eye movements / focus when driving in and out of these camera ridden areas.

 

Personally I would prefer do dump the speedo, eyes on the road 100% of the time and just drive to the road and surrounding conditions.

I agree, motorists will spend more time checking the speedo.

I'd rather everyone looked at the road ahead. There will be more rear enders especially in fixed camera spots.

 

Lets see a proper scientific study of driver eye movements / focus when driving in and out of these camera ridden areas.

 

Personally I would prefer do dump the speedo, eyes on the road 100% of the time and just drive to the road and surrounding conditions.

 

I'm not a car driver so don't know how it works, but surely, if they want 20mph limits can't they just put speed bumps on the road and/or just paint some pedestrian crossings in those areas, and that would discourage drivers putting their foot down?

I agree, motorists will spend more time checking the speedo.

I'd rather everyone looked at the road ahead. There will be more rear enders especially in fixed camera spots.

 

Lets see a proper scientific study of driver eye movements / focus when driving in and out of these camera ridden areas.

 

Personally I would prefer do dump the speedo, eyes on the road 100% of the time and just drive to the road and surrounding conditions.

 

Yea buts that what we had years ago before speed limits and the problem was that one person idea of a safe speed is different from anothers so how in court do you fairly and consitently decide whos in the wrong ?. Speed limits were only introduced to make it easier to proscute people for driving to fast by setting a hard defined limit.

 

Speed limits are in general wrong, as which is more dangerous 100mph on a sunny day down a empty motorway or 70 mph on same motorway in rush hour and fog ?. Yet first is illegal and second is not (from a speeding point of view police could still try and do you for dangerous driving which again then comes down to opinion)

 

Truble is your solution relies on all drivers using common sense and driving sensibly which we all know is never going to happen.

I'm not a car driver so don't know how it works, but surely, if they want 20mph limits can't they just put speed bumps on the road and/or just paint some pedestrian crossings in those areas, and that would discourage drivers putting their foot down?

 

Trouble with speed bumps is that just cause the brake, speed up, brake, speed up syndrome which is no more safe and as for pedestrain crossings to many of them just leeds to drivers trying to get across as many as possible without stopping.

Yea buts that what we had years ago before speed limits and the problem was that one person idea of a safe speed is different from anothers so how in court do you fairly and consitently decide whos in the wrong ?. Speed limits were only introduced to make it easier to proscute people for driving to fast by setting a hard defined limit.

 

Speed limits are in general wrong, as which is more dangerous 100mph on a sunny day down a empty motorway or 70 mph on same motorway in rush hour and fog ?. Yet first is illegal and second is not (from a speeding point of view police could still try and do you for dangerous driving which again then comes down to opinion)

 

Truble is your solution relies on all drivers using common sense and driving sensibly which we all know is never going to happen.

 

Yep, absolutley right. It is never going to happen. Does not mean that I or anyone else has to be happy with the situation, just accept best possible.

 

The technogy exists for engine management systems to be linked with gps position and mapped against current speed limits. Car can automatically restrict to the local speed limit.

 

Sure, a few people killed when the car slows at the crucial moment but nothing like the carnage we currently have.

 

The powers that be would have us all believe that a high proportion of accidents are speed related. Well put their money where their mouths are and implement the above.

 

We'll soon see if they are right. Oh, of course they will have to raise taxes to compensate for the lost speeding revenue but I am sure thats ok with most people.

Hi Call me a old fart I get flashed when around town i don't go over 28 MPH The speed limit is 30 MPH MAXIM NOT 30+ The weird part off speed limits are that they are in 10MPH if the law was changed to speed limit in 5 MPH increments this can be done as modern speedos are much more accurate so then town centers can be changed to 25 MPH At 25 MPH a collision with a person is not fatal at 35 + MPH it IS or very serious injures accrue

 

Frank

Hi Call me a old fart I get flashed when around town i don't go over 28 MPH The speed limit is 30 MPH MAXIM NOT 30+ The weird part off speed limits are that they are in 10MPH if the law was changed to speed limit in 5 MPH increments this can be done as modern speedos are much more accurate so then town centers can be changed to 25 MPH At 25 MPH a collision with a person is not fatal at 35 + MPH it IS or very serious injures accrue

 

Frank

 

Frank, lower limits in town are needed and have been for many years.

 

Speaking for myself who, over the years has had a few speeding fines and points, I spend far too much time looking at the speedo. I think, paranoid is the word.

 

One of the reasons I rarely use my motorcycle in this country. I prefer to look at the road at all times and not the dashboard.

 

In the car, I have the cruise control set to the local max limit. Drive normally and the cruise stops the car going over this limit. Thus, I can safely look at the roads.

 

Why can't all vehicles have this?

'Wanton and furious riding' is an old offence - the riding originally referred to a horse.

 

However, it is still used occasionally because most of the motoring offences contain the phrase 'you drove a mechanically propelled vehicle....' and not all vehicles fit the definition 'mechanically propelled'.

 

It is generally held that speed limits do not apply to bicycles, but were you to ride a bike at speed in a dangerous manner, say outside a school at kicking out time, you could be charged with wanton and furious.

 

Where this leaves ebikes is not clear, but I reckon most would be treated as ordinary bikes.

 

An exception might be that £9,000 contraption that does 50mph.

 

As regards the 20mph limit in Brighton, the best advice must be to stick to it, not least because it's there for a reason.

Yes legally speaking, but I mean from a practical point of view... the police are still not fully clued on e-bikes in many areas it seems and some will stop you as a matter of routine...if they're out with speed guns and someone whizzes past on an electric bike (clearly under power) and going faster than the 20mph speed limit... you know what the plod are like... if they're bored they might just come after you, pull you over and decide whether you have a legally compliant e-bike or an unregistered electric vehicle. That's what happened to the other chap on the forum wasn't it basically and they took his bike off him. I know some people on this forum are borderline legal and some are definitely not legal, so common sense would seem to apply around these 20mph limits, especially if the old bill are on the scene.. if you have a 100% legal e-bike then probably have nothing to worry about eh.

 

Hi Morphix,

 

I'm still confused here,please help me out,OK by registering your bike does this mean that it is now legal to ride regardless of the power/wattage/speed etc? Would the police be less hash on you if caught speeding with or without the assistance of the motor?

 

Also do you need to be insured and registered at the same time? It is very useful to gain as much valuable information as possible,so that we are more fully equiped and not feel powerless.

 

Mountainsport

Hi Morphix,

 

I'm still confused here,please help me out,OK by registering your bike does this mean that it is now legal to ride regardless of the power/wattage/speed etc? Would the police be less hash on you if caught speeding with or without the assistance of the motor?

 

Also do you need to be insured and registered at the same time? It is very useful to gain as much valuable information as possible,so that we are more fully equiped and not feel powerless.

 

Mountainsport

 

If you got your bike registered it would then be classified as a moped/motor bike (depending on power output as there is a limit for mopeds). Once registerd then all laws that apply to that class of vehicle would apply and it would no longer be considered as a bicycle.

 

So say it was registerd and classed as a moped. you would need relevant license,road tax, MOT, helmet etc just like any other moped. It would also mean you could not use cycle routes etc as it is no longer considered to be bicycle. Oh and breaking the speed limit would also involve penalty points and fines. whether you were using the pedals or just the motor would be completely irrelevant as it would be registerd as a motorised vehicle.

The technogy exists for engine management systems to be linked with gps position and mapped against current speed limits. Car can automatically restrict to the local speed limit.

 

What about cars that don't use engine management systems?

Hi Morphix,

 

I'm still confused here,please help me out,OK by registering your bike does this mean that it is now legal to ride regardless of the power/wattage/speed etc? Would the police be less hash on you if caught speeding with or without the assistance of the motor?

 

Also do you need to be insured and registered at the same time? It is very useful to gain as much valuable information as possible,so that we are more fully equiped and not feel powerless.

 

Mountainsport

 

Well getting your bike certified as legally compliant is possible, but it's a complicated procedure and expensive..you have to take it to a test centre (there's very few can do it) and pay a fee and they will make sure it complies with the law and issue you a certificate.. but as flecc has pointed out, there's confusion over which standards you would apply for testing. I think the consensus is that it's the old/current UK standards which would be used for testing.

 

The law says you need a compliance plate fitted to the frame of the bike showing its been tested and meets legal compliance.. I'm not sure where you would get that plate or whether it's even necessary, all seems a bit vague (hence why nobody bothers to actually register their bikes, even manufacturers are selling bikes without the plate fitted and any compliance testing)..perhaps just having a paper certificate of compliance would be sufficient though if stopped by police.

 

Your bike would have to be fully in compliance of course with the UK (or new EU regulations) to pass the test, i.e. 250W max rated motor, 15.5mph max speed and motor that cuts out if you pedal/move faster than that. I'm not sure about the throttle situation.. EU law states bikes aren't permitted to use the motor unless pedalling so that makes throttles used without pedalling illegal (except at 3mph? for walking/pushing). The EU law is not fully ratified with existing UK law yet though (as far as I know) and we're tolerant of using throttle-only mode on bikes (up to the legal 15.5mph limit of course).

 

If your bike is already in legal compliance my advice would not to worry about the police or registering it, like the majority of us. The law seems to be tolerant and turning a blind eye to the fact all these e-bikes are on the roads without compliance plates or testing because of the confusion that still exists about the law and bringing UK law inline with the new EU directive on e-bikes.

 

If your bike does not meet the EU regulations then it's classed as an electric motor vehicle and has to be registered as such with number plates, and you'd need a driving licence/CBT testing, and insurance etc.

 

The problem with the police and law is only really if you're involved in an accident, especially if you're the cause of the accident and it causes someone injury or damages. In that case, the police would be likely to examine your bike very closely and if they found it was not in legal compliance, they'd do you for all the offences of riding an unlicensed, unregistered, insured, untaxed motor vehicle etc, and you could face personal liability claims against you. If you keep things legal and ride sensibly, I think the risk of that happening is minimal because you'd be classed as a bicycle in law (a road-legal e-bike is a bicycle in law).

 

There's no requirement to have third party liability insurance on legally complaint e-bikes, and I think getting liability insurance is not easy. Unless your bike is legal and certified I doubt any insurers would insure it. I looked at a few insurers offering travel insurance with third party liability, and they usually have clauses excluding bicycles.

Edited February 14, 201313 yr by morphix

If you got your bike registered it would then be classified as a moped/motor bike (depending on power output as there is a limit for mopeds). Once registerd then all laws that apply to that class of vehicle would apply and it would no longer be considered as a bicycle.

 

So say it was registerd and classed as a moped. you would need relevant license,road tax, MOT, helmet etc just like any other moped. It would also mean you could not use cycle routes etc as it is no longer considered to be bicycle. Oh and breaking the speed limit would also involve penalty points and fines. whether you were using the pedals or just the motor would be completely irrelevant as it would be registerd as a motorised vehicle.

 

Hi Garry,

 

Thanks for that,is it worth going through the whole process in regards to registering,taxing and insuring your bike making it road legal? Why dont we all do this, is it because of spending more money or just down to not wanting to be sucked in to this political palaver?

 

Mountainsport

Is a bike with an off road button/switch illegal ?

Technically my bike is illegal with the motor sprocket mod....if i am 6th/7th gear.....below that it is still legal as it cuts out at 15.5 ish mph....or is it ?

As regards the 20mph limit for bicycles unless they are going to enforce a speedo law then they cannot possibly apply it as it is impossible to guess the speed you are doing without one.

I have also done 42mph in 30mph zone past a speed camera...did i know ? not until i got home and checked the gps as i don't ride with my head down glued to it,i concentrate on the road.

Hi Garry,

 

Thanks for that,is it worth going through the whole process in regards to registering,taxing and insuring your bike making it road legal? Why dont we all do this, is it because of spending more money or just down to not wanting to be sucked in to this political palaver?

 

Mountainsport

 

It's not only just not worth doing and unnecessary, the Vehicle Inspectorate wouldn't welcome the extra unnecessary work and anyway, it still wouldn't always achieve legality under the forthcoming EU law. This requires all e-bikes to comply to EN15194 and for that to be certified by a registered testing laboratory. Clearly this law doesn't have any provision for kit bikes/self builds, and there seems to be no inclination at the EU to address this at present.

 

Best to continue with the pseudo legality we have at present, matching either UK or EU requirements, but not a pick-a-mix of the two. Then from 2016 or when it finally gets implemented, the Europe wide law.

.

Edited February 14, 201313 yr by flecc

Is a bike with an off road button/switch illegal ?

Technically my bike is illegal with the motor sprocket mod....if i am 6th/7th gear.....below that it is still legal as it cuts out at 15.5 ish mph....or is it ?

As regards the 20mph limit for bicycles unless they are going to enforce a speedo law then they cannot possibly apply it as it is impossible to guess the speed you are doing without one.

I have also done 42mph in 30mph zone past a speed camera...did i know ? not until i got home and checked the gps as i don't ride with my head down glued to it,i concentrate on the road.

 

Yes, the switch is illegal since it's under the rider's control, and the same applies to your sprocket, the bike is capable of illegal assist speeds under your control. And because of that, the 42 mph was an offence since your modified e-bike is a motor vehicle, no longer a bicycle in law like a legal e-bike. Not having a speedometer is no defence, it's actually another offence since motor vehicles have to have one.

Yes, the switch is illegal since it's under the rider's control, and the same applies to your sprocket, the bike is capable of illegal assist speeds under your control. And because of that, the 42 mph was an offence since your modified e-bike is a motor vehicle, no longer a bicycle in law like a legal e-bike. Not having a speedometer is no defence, it's actually another offence since motor vehicles have to have one.

 

For sure, ignorance of the law is never a defence in any situation. Bikes used to be sold with these off-road switches fitted in the early days (like Whispers) but then they stopped doing it, and supplied them as optional extras to fit yourself (no doubt to remove any liability over to the owner!).

 

I think you'd be best to avoid having anything which makes your bike not road legal if you're using it on the road, just in case you're ever unlucky enough to be in an accident. Also why draw attention to yourself from the police by going faster than what is reasonably expected on a bicycle? If you do that you're basically giving them an excuse to pull you over and check you for legal compliance and risk all the offences of riding an unlicensed motor bicycle.

 

I guess it depends on the situation and area where you live...in rural areas you might get away with it, but in towns and urban areas, I think you're taking a big gamble. Also you have to consider fellow e-bike owners.. we're lucky that the law is relaxed (not enforced) and e-bike market is unregulated...but that situation could change if people start riding crazy bikes at crazy speeds and one or two accidents occur. A knee-jerk reaction would be likely from the government and we'd all lose our freedoms we enjoy at present.

Edited February 14, 201313 yr by morphix

Hi Garry,

 

Thanks for that,is it worth going through the whole process in regards to registering,taxing and insuring your bike making it road legal? Why dont we all do this, is it because of spending more money or just down to not wanting to be sucked in to this political palaver?

 

Mountainsport

 

On top of Fleccs answer why would you bother as it would be far cheaper,easier and safer to just go out and buy a fully functioning moped/motor bike.

On top of Fleccs answer why would you bother as it would be far cheaper,easier and safer to just go out and buy a fully functioning moped/motor bike.

 

Definitely. If you need to ride at speeds over 20mph without pedalling then why not just buy an electric moped that's already road approved, then you're road legal and don't have to worry about accidents or what speed you're doing near police etc (within the legal limits of course!).

I realise mine is illegal because of the sprocket,i was just really verifying the fact that the off road switch was just as illegal,bit strange seeing as up until very recently manufacturers put these switches on therefore selling illegal bikes.Also how can other manufacturers sell high speed bikes in this country ?

Surely it should be as much as an offence to sell them here ? If you buy abroad and ride here then that is a totally different scenario.

I am tempted to put my motor sprocket back to the standard one,then i can legally pass the camera at 42 mph

I realise mine is illegal because of the sprocket,i was just really verifying the fact that the off road switch was just as illegal,bit strange seeing as up until very recently manufacturers put these switches on therefore selling illegal bikes.Also how can other manufacturers sell high speed bikes in this country ?

Surely it should be as much as an offence to sell them here ? If you buy abroad and ride here then that is a totally different scenario.

I am tempted to put my motor sprocket back to the standard one,then i can legally pass the camera at 42 mph

 

Simple as with other things in the past (CB Radios) or even now (Bongs and other "smoking" stuff, mini motos, powered skateboards) they are not illegal to sell but depending on use can be illegal to use.

 

In reality virtually no bike sold is legal and most claim to be EN15194 compliant but that has not yet ben passed into UK law (Although UK is obliged to do so) and not aware of any bikes that you can buy that meet current uk law.

I realise mine is illegal because of the sprocket,i was just really verifying the fact that the off road switch was just as illegal,bit strange seeing as up until very recently manufacturers put these switches on therefore selling illegal bikes.Also how can other manufacturers sell high speed bikes in this country ?

Surely it should be as much as an offence to sell them here ? If you buy abroad and ride here then that is a totally different scenario.

 

But once the suppliers like Wisper realised the off-road switches are illegal, they removed them, all the evidence we need.

 

As for the high speed e-bikes sold here such as those at 50cycles, look closely and you'll see they have a rear number plate bracket as standard. Their site also warns they need to be registered etc.

 

So there's no commercial anomalies, other than those of the irresponsible suppliers who don't care about the law.

I realise mine is illegal because of the sprocket,i was just really verifying the fact that the off road switch was just as illegal,bit strange seeing as up until very recently manufacturers put these switches on therefore selling illegal bikes.Also how can other manufacturers sell high speed bikes in this country ?

Surely it should be as much as an offence to sell them here ? If you buy abroad and ride here then that is a totally different scenario.

I am tempted to put my motor sprocket back to the standard one,then i can legally pass the camera at 42 mph

 

Technically, e-bike manufacturers (or sellers) are not breaking the law by selling an e-bike that is not road legal. I mean, it's not illegal to sell one or own one. It's only an offence to ride it on the road.

 

However, you could argue that manufacturers and retailers have a legal responsibility to make it clear to consumers in advertising that the bike is not legal to ride on roads. At present very few retailers and manufacturers of non-road legal bikes do that. But still, the onus is on the buyer to check the law and whether the bike is in compliance, so you'd not get very far I expect if you tried to sue the seller for misleading advertising.

 

I suspect it's more an issue for the Advertising Standards Authority to deal with.