.....................This new system means you can input your target heart rate and the heart monitor, transmission and pedal assistance will work in concert to keep your heart rate as close to 140bpm (for example) as possible, regardless of terrain. Up hill and down dale at a constant 140bpm......

 

QUOTE]

 

Tim, like a lot of people I have a heart 'issue' and use my cross trainer with a target heart rate program in exactly the way you describe. Iknow you're going to tell me when you get these bikes in but as this has come up here can you tell me;

 

1. Whether the bike comes with a heart rate monitor and whether that's Bluetooth or not? The premium (in price) over the NuVinci Harmony would cover the cost of a receiver on the bike and a Bluetooth Chest Monitor many times over so one would hope so.

 

2. On many occasions owners may wish to ride the bike like an 'ordinary' NuVinci auto - ie without the heart rate program, can this be done?

 

3. Are the 2013 models arriving with the 17.00ah batteries?

 

JimB

 

Hi Jim - don't know about the heart monitor yet. They said it was wireless when I asked. I presume rider can turn off the Ergo mode and use it just like a regular Impulse bike, though you get the LCD display like on the C11 Premium - an updated version of it anyway.

 

It's a 15Ah battery on the Harmony models, I think Kalkhoff wanted to keep the price reasonable. Sixty to 75 miles is plenty for most people!

I would imagine is similar to this though link lacks detail (Daum make the impulse system)

http://www.daum-electronic.de/en/download/daum_pedelec_0005-GB-web.pdf

 

Perhaps I should be asking for commission

 

Hi Jim - don't know about the heart monitor yet. They said it was wireless when I asked. I presume rider can turn off the Ergo mode and use it just like a regular Impulse bike, though you get the LCD display like on the C11 Premium - an updated version of it anyway.

 

It's a 15Ah battery on the Harmony models, I think Kalkhoff wanted to keep the price reasonable. Sixty to 75 miles is plenty for most people!

 

Hopefully the details will emerge soon Tim.

 

In the meantime I hope you'll forgive me for saying that I get a bit weary of people dictating to me what range I should be happy with, particularly on something selling for the thick end of £2,500 - however 'reasonable' that price might seem to Derby Cycles stakeholders.

 

Even if 60 to 70 miles is plenty for most people (I haven't seen that survey) I believe that individuals should retain the right to have their own ideas about what kind of mileage they want to have available to them in between charging points.

 

Kalkhoff claim 180kms max possible range for this bike, even if that's ridden by a 6 stone pro and down hill all the way with a 40 mph tail wind.

 

Maybe it would be useful if manufacturers actually gave some indication of their procedures for arriving at these figures but sadly the more I research the subject the more I see just smoke and mirrors.

 

JimB

40 mph tail wind.

 

Maybe it would be useful if manufacturers actually gave some indication of their procedures for arriving at these figures but sadly the more I research the subject the more I see just smoke and mirrors.

 

JimB

 

Which is why we always quote actual mileage figures reported by our customers rather than the best-case scenario ranges the manufacturer uses.

 

Their assumption for that 180km figure is:

 

Fully charged 15Ah battery

10 - 15 degree centigrade ambient temperature

Low windspeed

Average speed of 22kph

Eco mode

Weight of 105 - 110kg including bike

 

They go on to quote 120km/75 miles in middle or sport mode most riders use most of the time, given those conditions, which has been borne out in reality, in the UK.

Edited April 12, 201313 yr by Tim

Wonder if this Bluetooth input interface will be used to control the nuvinci harmony by Beta Brainwave Bio-feedback Reinforcement :-D

Mind you, I'm only half joking ;-) (get it? "mind you").

Sorry, couldn't resist, cheers, Mike

An e-bike dragster, .....what a concept D8veh are you working on one?

It's been around on drag-racing motorcycles for years. Hard to believe that some makers are so insular they wouldn't know about it.

Why would you buy an electric bike and then ride it with the power turned off? It makes no sense.

 

It does make sense - you ride with power when heavily loaded, on long uphill stretches, if you're in a hurry, when stopping and starting in town due to traffic lights everywhere and for the trip to and from where you want to ride off-road. Once you hit a cruising speed on a long ride above 15.5-16.5mph there's next to no power assist anyway so may as well turn it off, or just leave it on and you might get the odd 'nudge' if you start slacking too much. On long downhills there's no point having it on either. You'll be going far more than 15.5mph in all likelihood and gravity does better than any limited motor with a little help from the pedals.

 

Take it out on trails and again you'll likely only need it up significant hills. Lots of conditions where it may as well be off for quite a few people.

 

In the meantime I hope you'll forgive me for saying that I get a bit weary of people dictating to me what range I should be happy with, particularly on something selling for the thick end of £2,500 - however 'reasonable' that price might seem to Derby Cycles stakeholders.

 

The bit that isn't usually talked about - on full power max assist in stop-start conditions such as town riding, and against significant headwinds within assist range, provided no extended 15-20% gradient hills and staying at or just short of the speed assist limits, expect about 35-42 miles off it with a loaded weight of around 80-85kg before the power drops to the point you need to recharge. Maybe less if you or the bike is loaded very heavy. It's a lot better than most in practice.

 

I quite agree with all the stats and generally low ranges of most bikes on the market and the nonsense talked about this being enough for most people. Of course it isn't - it's what the battery technology and state of advancement allows within the profit margins sought by sellers and bike weight considerations for the marketing blurb.

 

It's far better now than even 6 months ago - I basically had a choice of about 2-3 bikes I could find with a sensible prospect for real-life range off a charge (a fraction of max stated range) to use as a main workhorse bike. I class Bosch high-capacity battery bikes as a category but I wouldn't buy a Bosch anything (especially to rely on as a means of transport - no offence to Bosch bike owners but I personally have zero confidence in Bosch and still don't believe the realistic full power range of their bigger battery won't be short of the 540Wh Impulse battery). I would have been much happier with a 20Ah and a full-power range of 60 miles especially for that money , given bike choice was driven by range over all else at the time. No prospect of getting caught out with that in anything but very unlucky circumstances.

 

If your battery capacity is light you'll be less likely to attempt longer rides so your bike may well end up limiting your choices and how far you are confident to go, especially in tougher conditions.

 

Manufacturers need to understand the fact people capable of longer rides are buying their bikes is only because the "legit bike" market is inherently so limited in choice on battery range and supply choice is hampering this. Am personally not interested in carting spare batteries around in a rucksack on a walk when I stow my bike and get off to enjoy the bits you can't cycle !!! ... or having to charge the battery at the end of every ride.... or dealing with low voltage in the final stretches home of a long ride because you can't operate comfortably with a decent margin of capacity left over if you want to put the power on full because you're cream crackered (or battery is getting on a bit). All these things are relevant when appraising how much overspec is appropriate to cover your preferred comfort parameters at the start.

 

15Ah was pretty much the maximum I could get at the end of last Summer for a +/- £2.5k outlay. I'd have liked 3-5Ah more and still would in principle... except the local area is just that bit too hilly to inspire me to ride the Kalkhoff on very long journeys now and too big to take around to more suitable places without a campervan or moving to a flatter area of the country so I probably wouldn't get the chance to use it for very long trips out as I'd have liked to at the start. Not without one of afore-mentioned coming about anyhow. Seriously doubt any of the competing dealer-sold bikes would be any different on that front. Shame actually - has been an expensive way of finding these things out.

Edited April 13, 201313 yr by 103Alex1

[quote=103Alex1;

 

 

If your battery capacity is light you'll be less likely to attempt longer rides so your bike may well end up limiting your choices and how far you are confident to go, especially in tougher conditions.

 

.

 

Very true - factoring in the cost of a second battery is pretty much essential if you're reasonably active, have access to some decent rides & buy a bike with a 10ah battery because "That's all Sir will need (at his advanced state of decay)"

Hi Tim,

 

I have ridden an ebike with a manual NuVinci and I must say it is very easy to change with no effort at all.

I am keen to try a nuvinci powered Kalkhoff, but tell me can you override the heart monitor thing.

I really don't feel I would like this feature. I would like the constant cadence control of the Harmony though.

I was very tempted by the 11 speed hub version of the Kalkhoff I tried but it still needs a stop in peddling under power to change, so for this reason I think the NuVinci may fit the bill.

Are you taking them to any shows or exhibitions?

Hi Alex,

 

What range do you comfortably get from your Kalkhoff?

I have a hilly commute and use a Panasonic powered Kalkhoff, which is fine for my needs but I charge at both ends of my journey. 33 mile round trip with around 1200ft of climb on the whole journey.

There is a guy who has the 350w Pro connect S with 18Ah who travels a slightly shorter part of the same route without so much climb and he can't manage a round trip without cycling without power for part of the journey.

So interested to know what you consider possible with the impulse.

Hi Alex,

 

What range do you comfortably get from your Kalkhoff?

I have a hilly commute and use a Panasonic powered Kalkhoff, which is fine for my needs but I charge at both ends of my journey. 33 mile round trip with around 1200ft of climb on the whole journey.

There is a guy who has the 350w Pro connect S with 18Ah who travels a slightly shorter part of the same route without so much climb and he can't manage a round trip without cycling without power for part of the journey.

So interested to know what you consider possible with the impulse.

 

Hi

 

It's feasible. You may well get away with the round trip without charging, depending on how much of it you cycle over assist limits or on lower assist modes and how efficiently you draw the power assist on the hills. The Panasonic 350W Pro Connect probably draws considerably more battery power (and gives considerably more assistance) on the hills than the 250W Impulse. You would hope so - it's an 'S-Pedelec'. When you have the power there and regularly do long journeys it's tempting to use it.

 

This probably accounts for his difficulty completing the journey on that battery, especially if he uses high assist on the climbs. It really depends on rider fitness and conditions when it gets that marginal.

 

Long hills on full power hit your battery very hard. 30-35 miles is at the absolute tops expectation off any 250W retail eBike readily available in UK in a very hilly area imho and you'd be best off taking over from the motor when you can even then. If you get more then it's a bonus.

 

Power a bike more and even with a 20Ah battery I wouldn't expect more than 25 miles off a 500W CST / 30A controller, for example. That's using a medium amount of assist (out of total available assistance - i.e. a fair bit nonetheless !) on average in hilly terrain on a climb-heavy route and full throttle assist only on long 15-20% slopes. Pull any more power on the easier stretches and the range would likely drop a bit further but need to finish building in the bike electrics and fit the Cycle Analyst in order to get it out to test that properly. The power available on hills makes a big difference to range as well as limiting top speed on a derestricted bike.

Edited April 13, 201313 yr by 103Alex1

Over 3000 miles on my 500w BPM with 20aH 36v battery, I averaged 15wh per mile. This involved a fair bit of commuting where I just pedalled steadily all the time. I would describe the commute as a couple of long steep hills, otherwise fairly flat. About a third of the miles were pleasure riding where the journeys were very hilly. That gave an average range of about 53 miles without ever pedalling hard enough to puff. Now I only ride for pleasure, so my rides are very hilly and I average about 20wH per mile, which has reduced the range to about 40 miles. If I go on a longer journey, I just pedal a bit harder and it's easy to go over 60 miles without over-exerting myself. A cruise control or PAS level control makes a substantial difference to achieve a long range on any particular journey. When you use throttle only, it's too easy to use extra power that you don't really need.

.....................Manufacturers need to understand the fact people capable of longer rides are buying their bikes is only because the "legit bike" market is inherently so limited in choice on battery range and supply choice is hampering this. Am personally not interested in carting spare batteries around in a rucksack on a walk when I stow my bike and get off to enjoy the bits you can't cycle !!! ... or having to charge the battery at the end of every ride.... or dealing with low voltage in the final stretches home of a long ride because you can't operate comfortably with a decent margin of capacity left over if you want to put the power on full because you're cream crackered (or battery is getting on a bit). All these things are relevant when appraising how much overspec is appropriate to cover your preferred comfort parameters at the start..................

 

At last!......I couldn't have put it better...and wish I'd put as well!

 

JimB

Now I only ride for pleasure, so my rides are very hilly and I average about 20wH per mile, which has reduced the range to about 40 miles. If I go on a longer journey, I just pedal a bit harder and it's easy to go over 60 miles without over-exerting myself. A cruise control or PAS level control makes a substantial difference to achieve a long range on any particular journey. When you use throttle only, it's too easy to use extra power that you don't really need.

 

That's substantially more than I was hoping for so will be a real bonus if the range tops out as well as that. I'm used to riding mostly at 17-20mph though rather than 12-15mph unless it's a significantly uphill stretch, so will be interesting how well bike handles that alongside pedal effort and what the impact is on battery use - it's a case of playing about between the cruise and the normal throttles to try to strike a balance I guess.

Edited April 14, 201313 yr by 103Alex1

Tried out a Kalkhoff Sahel i360 at Eden. Impressive hill climbing on a reasonable slope and a very nice ride. There wasn't enough challenging terrain to see how it would do above assist limits but for a comfy average ride it seemed a very good option for people who don't want Dutch bikes and are happy with a 26" smaller bike with a big range (540Wh battery). Definitely a better ride than the 8sp Alfine. I'd hazard not as good outside the core range as the Alfine 11sp (when it's tuned and the chain is tight !).

 

It wasn't as responsive or grunty as the E-motion Neo Xtrem though .... for riding a bike to higher performance levels I'd probably buy one of those instead .. or if you don't want the long wheelbase and sturdy cargo-friendly frame of the Agattu.

Interesting. I haven't yet seen one of those but to test ride shortly if and when the suppliers get a Kalkhoff Pro Connect Xion X27 for me to look at although from what I've seen on the German forum (moans about failed deliveries) I'm not holding my breath.

 

Re the i360 I did wonder if it was quite a small bike but it's difficult to tell from pictures alone.

 

From what you've said it may not be for me.

 

Pity about the short course, I still haven't seen any reports about how this transmission feels to work in unassisted mode.

 

JimB

I looked at that Xion on the website out of curiosity, but the regen put me off and the aspect of the Storck so often moaned about (auto-braking effect on downhills at speed) seems to be an issue with this system too.

 

The Agattu C11 is a really imposing bike especially in a step-through - not something you notice so much with the C8 - but the Sahel looked very compact in comparison. Like a regular hybrid bike size and basic appearance. It's the frame geometry more than the wheel size - the bike looks much lower to the ground and 'normal' and I barely registered the extra length to accommodate the battery behind the seatpost. I liked the Sahel paintwork more than the Agattu C8 for what that's worth . If you were in the market for many of the Bosch bikes or the like, the Sahel is very nice alternative with decent battery and system, and I never understood why it wasn't more popular. Being 26" rather than a 28" bike i'll be nippy too. It comes with Big Apple tyres like the Storck Raddar Multitask.

 

I didn't try Sahel with the power off - unfortunately a bit tight on time, and it was belting down with rain whilst I tested the bikes so that did keep my trials to the key priorities somewhat

Edited April 23, 201313 yr by 103Alex1

............but the Sahel looked very compact in comparison. Like a regular hybrid bike size and basic appearance. It's the frame geometry more than the wheel size - the bike looks much lower to the ground and 'normal' and I barely registered the extra length to accommodate the battery behind the seatpost. I liked the Sahel paintwork more than the Agattu C8 for what that's worth . If you were in the market for many of the Bosch bikes or the like, the Sahel is very nice alternative with decent battery and system, and I never understood why it wasn't more popular. Being 26" rather than a 28" bike i'll be nippy too. It comes with Big Apple tyres

 

I notice from the 50C site that in the case of the Agattu i8 HS Step-thru (not quite the same as the one you tested) that in frame size 45cm it's a 26" wheel but in 46cm frame size up it's a 28" wheel.

 

Just wondering if it was one with the smallest frame that they had down at Eden.

 

JimB

I didn't try or see the 2013 Agattus at Eden - only tried the 2012 C8 & I have the C11. The C8 I tried last year at NEC had a Medium frame and was a 28", but the geometry wasn't as imposing as C11.

 

The Sahel was noticeably more compact than the 2012 Agattus.

Alex, I have somewhat belatedly realised that I have no idea what bike you are referring to as 'the Sahel'.

 

I made an incorrect assumption earlier.

 

I am lying down and waving a white flag.

 

 

JimB

Alex, I have somewhat belatedly realised that I have no idea what bike you are referring to as 'the Sahel'.

 

I made an incorrect assumption earlier.

 

I am lying down and waving a white flag.

 

 

JimB

 

Lol. No worries it all gets blooming confusing - too many bikes to keep track of ! It's this one

 

Kalkhoff Sahel i360 NuVi Harmony 50cm HE 28"

 

Comes in step-through also :

 

50cycles Products

 

It has the i360 automatic shifters rather than the Revoshifter that you get on the Sahel Nuvinvi but except for that so far as I'm aware it's identical.

Edited April 25, 201312 yr by 103Alex1

I can confirm that at Eden, the Agattu step-thru (2012 model) was small framed with 26" wheels whilst the crossbar (2013 model) was medium with 28" wheels. I have both these bikes available for demonstration rides at our North Devon electric bike hire base. I believe that both the Sahels at Eden with the Nuvinci Harmony hub were 26" wheels. I do not have these to try out in North Devon as yet but hope to get one soon. Apart from the automatic hub gearing system, the main difference between the Agattu and the Sahel is that the Sahel has rigid front forks.

Lol. No worries it all gets blooming confusing - too many bikes to keep track of ! It's this one

 

Kalkhoff Sahel i360 NuVi Harmony 50cm HE 28"

 

Comes in step-through also :

 

50cycles Products

 

It has the i360 automatic shifters rather than the Revoshifter that you get on the Sahel Nuvinvi but except for that so far as I'm aware it's identical.

 

I seems I was pretty much on track after all Alex...thanks for that.

 

I'm waiting to hear confirmation of test rides at Loughborough on the Agattu i8 HS and the Sahel i360 Harmony (both Step-thru) and they will be in competition with a Chinese built crank drive 7 speed derailleur which would cost me almost exactly half, including spare 15ah battery and additional charger so these Kalks need to be pretty special with asking prices for their batteries almost as much as a half decent complete Chinese bike.

 

JimB

I seems I was pretty much on track after all Alex...thanks for that.

 

I'm waiting to hear confirmation of test rides at Loughborough on the Agattu i8 HS and the Sahel i360 Harmony (both Step-thru) and they will be in competition with a Chinese built crank drive 7 speed derailleur which would cost me almost exactly half, including spare 15ah battery and additional charger so these Kalks need to be pretty special with asking prices for their batteries almost as much as a half decent complete Chinese bike.

 

JimB

 

Ah ! They are completely different types of purchases and completely different markets. I got the Kalkhoff as I wanted a bike that looked and felt special, was legal to ride in rest of EU (if I'd gone over there with it this year), had high quality components and finish, would hold value better as only intending to keep for a year plus also had the controller software to manage the power delivery on a crank drive more intuitively for a more natural cycling feel. Plus the long range of course. I ruled out Kalkhoff C8 because it didn't have a high quality LCD display with all that info on it, which was a 'must have' not an 'optional extra' for me. But all that said it was only the C11 excited me enough to part with the money.. the ones with lower spec and especially lower gearing range didn't do enough to tempt me to pay all that.

 

Would never compare VFM to Chinese built bikes - completely different ball game and completely different expectations. Only you can tell if you're prepared to pay twice as much for one or the other after riding both. But I think the differences are more pronounced on premium German bikes compared to Chinese ones than they are on the cheaper range models. You pay a heck of a lot of money for the quality and design / component / (and hopefully) build improvements though.

 

It's a funny thing with bikes - so hard to tell from a picture or description. I've always had a dilemma with road bikes - for me the feel of the shifting system and levers is paramount and having tried several times to persuade myself I'd be OK with something less than 105 (reluctantly) or Ultegra (preferably), every time I sit on one with the lower range components I realize I'd not want to ride the bike at all and would only do so out of need and lack of choice in the matter. Parting with a grand to wind up with a solution like that is something I just never managed to do. However, spending £1.5 - £2k for what to me is an acceptable (but still not mind-blowingly great) option is daylight robbery. So I still don't own a road bike at all !

Edited April 25, 201312 yr by 103Alex1

............However, spending £1.5 - £2k for what to me is an acceptable (but still not mind-blowingly great) option is daylight robbery..........QUOTE]

 

That, precisely, has become the biggest bug in my decision making process.

 

I'm buying two bikes and whilst I have available the funds to spend £5,000 on them quite frankly it seems obscene when you can go out and buy a new car (even it is a Dacia) for the same money.

 

I love gadgets and it would be great to have a bike with 27 gears (most of which I wouldn't use) and hanging with cycling gizmos that people in the know might Ooooh and Aaaaah over but with the type of cycling we do - slightly leisurely use of tracks, canal paths, reservoirs, forests and the like - is there a need for them (separating needs and wants has been difficult).

 

The Kalk has pretty good range on the 15ah battery they stick on the UK model although in Germany the same bikes have 17ah. And at £600 a pop for each spare it hardly bears thinking about!

 

The supposed quality and price brings the issue of security vulnerability especially if touring (by car) with them, which I want to do. With two bikes on the tow bar mount bike rack it is one thing to have two x £800 (minus the cost of the batteries at £300 each) - these would be included on my household insurance...but another thing altogether if there were 2 x £2500 on there overnight even with heavy duty motorcycle locks. I'm not sure I'd be able to sleep.

 

On the touring front I've come to the conclusion that whilst the Kalks (and others - KTM HS400 dual drive is a favourite) have pretty good range a lowish cost second battery will give even more range and a lot more flexibility bearing in mind how long these things take to charge.

 

You mention bikes retaining their value. I'm not arguing with you but my view is that e-bike technology is moving quite quickly now (at least elsewhere in Europe) and it's quite possible, in my opinion, that what we buy today will be worth pretty much s*d all in a year or so because the tech will already have moved on so much. In that respect I believe you should expect a much bigger hit with a premium priced bike.

 

The question I keep asking myself is - will I get twice the quality and twice the performance and twice the enjoyment if I pay twice as much and the answer (I talk to myself a lot these days) is invariably - NO fool!

 

And that's why I'm testing a £2000 bike (with a view, actually, to probably go for the £2500 Ergo if I choose Kalk) and also seriously considering an £800 takeaway.

 

You're right, they're not all locked up yet!

 

 

JimB