Some very interesting thoughts and considerations there. For the sort of riding you do I'd personally plump for either a smaller Dutch bike for carrying (when you see a Medium Agattu step-through for example you will realize what I mean) or a MTB depending on how much forest-type riding you intend on doing.

 

On the batteries bear in mind a Kalkhoff battery likely lasts 2 - 2 1/2 times the number of charge cycles a typical Chinese battery lasts. This is one key reason for the price discrepancy and also accounts for why resale values of relatively new bikes are high. The technology hasn't moved on that much to be honest except in battery and fashion terms. I personally wouldn't have an automatic car or an automatic shifting on a bike - not something you can fix readily if it goes on the blink without major cost.

 

But I think you can expect a £700 hit on a moderately used premium bike bought for RRP in 1st 12 months in good condition, half of that being what a new one ends up available for when next year's models come out and the rest attributable to usage and warranty erosion.

 

Things like the Ergo are rather like Ultegra Di2 etc ... you will likely lose a stack more money on them in 1st year because when the technology spreads (as it inevitably will) and other new gadgets and gizmo ideas come out they'll simply not fetch the novelty premiums. If the HRM is something which matters for health reasons or because you are training on the bike perhaps it's useful but I still have my doubts about it.

 

Also how you'd actually react to a bike which assists in response to your physical signs of effort in practice. It's very hard to tell without a long test ride. There's an upper limit to peak output assistance capabilities of many motors and I wonder how this one will sustain peak output when you really need it even if your HR is crying out for it - or how much you'd want to over-ride it if it sags on journeys you want to make with less effort but where your HR might not be the best indicator of what power level you want. It's all a bit scientific for me - and could be very good or a complete irritation you disable and wonder why you bothered with after a few rides !

 

I definitely share your views on the cost thing - eBikes and associated expenditure have cost me well over £5k since October trying to get a combo that I think is adequate and fulfilling what I was after, and I still don't have it, making do with a many compromises for astronomic outlays. It's blooming expensive as a hobby if you don't make savings on cars alongside. Later in the year I may get rid of both my bikes and put the money back to a car.

 

In a leisure context, the good bikes I want to ride are priced as an expensive indulgence and a luxury (or wind up costing the same), and I'd not get inspired to ride the others regularly - only the best ones I've tried (or the one I built and am still finishing) would make me want to get on them by choice rather than need. As utility / mobility aids eBikes are great and fulfill a function. But having ridden more miles in 6 months than the rest of my life put together in a mix of terrains I think I can now say there are other pursuits I'd choose instead for leisure. I enjoy enough of them - especially now the decent weather is returning - but cycling is pretty much crowding the lot out of my life, financially and logistically, for a whole host of reasons.

 

It's definitely not giving back commensurately what other activities did for me at the moment and that's the key test. It was good riding in Winter as it kept depression at bay and kept my fitness up. But now I feel there are other things I'd rather do. Going to finish my build and get a proper few months out of it alongside a few other pursuits (hopefully !). The Trek is a corker and it's about as good as you could hope for in a bike to be fair so it deserves a decent crack. Then think about next year and perhaps move on / back to the things I've always really loved doing.

 

If you really don't think the expensive bikes are worth the money and the cheapos are just too basic then consider sticking a couple of decent Chinese kits on well-performing good quality (high-end) 2nd hand bikes that are actually custom-built for the terrain you want to ride in and you really like the feel of. It'll likely be no more outlay overall than a Chinese ready-made but if it makes you want to ride it because you like the bike then you've got yourself a nice compromise without spending a king's ransom.

Edited April 25, 201312 yr by 103Alex1

........ For the sort of riding you do I'd personally plump for either a smaller Dutch bike for carrying (when you see a Medium Agattu step-through for example you will realize what I mean) or a MTB depending on how much forest-type riding you intend on doing......

 

Just to make sure I've got this right Alex when you refer to the Medium Agattu are you referring to the Agattu Premium C11 Impulse (2012 model)?

 

Regarding all the rest of my ramblings one of my favourite maxims has always been "the quality is remembered long after the price has been forgotten" - which is probably in the root of your own philosophy and which will probably be the overriding factor in my own final decision.

 

Thanks for all of your input.

 

Whilst we're testing the the Agattu i8 HS step-thru and the Sahel i360 Harmony Step-thru on Monday this is so that I can make a decision regarding Nuvinci over traditional gears and also to see whether the 8 speed suffers from the issue of having to pause pedalling to change down under load (does the 11 speed Alfine also require this?).

 

If I don't like the auto for any reason and the hub gears all require a pause to change gear that may swing me to derailleurs (unless someone's going to chip in now and ruin my day and tell me they're the same) and the KTM Macina HS 400 dual drive will move further up the list.

 

I'm really beginning to wish I hadn't promised my son and his partner our two perfectly adequate push bikes!

 

JimB

and also to see whether the 8 speed suffers from the issue of having to pause pedalling to change down under load (does the 11 speed Alfine also require this?).

 

It really isn't that much of an issue when you get used to it. You soon get the knack.

It really isn't that much of an issue when you get used to it. You soon get the knack.

 

Agreed.

 

Neither a deraileur nor an Alfine change well under load.

 

Never tried a NuVinci, but it looks like it might be able to do that.

 

If so, it could be the deciding factor for JimB.

In short, yes basically all hub gears bar a continuous transmission will require a pause in pedalling for gear changing. It's not something which bothers me as it's so momentary and on a decent bike you've hardly a chance to change up before you're at 15mph or so and therefore chances of losing momentum to the point your riding speed and flow are unduly interrupted are minimal. Unless you are fixated on riding with constant cadence - in which case a Panasonic might be a thought - this is an issue which preoccupies road bikers and time triallers, and isn't really to my way of thinking of any practical relevance to eBiking.

 

Huge advantage of hub gears is not having to change down before stopping into the right gear for restarting on a derailleur. In any kind of traffic it is a complete pain in the neck as you can never predict and change fast enough in town road traffic. That's why a throttle is best anywhere outside the leisurely surroundings of the traffic-free countryside .. you don't get caught out as you throttle through a high gear stop until you're in the right gear. However, in the traffic-free countryside the only reason I'd feel a derailleur is worth it on a crank drive is for aggressive control of gearing in challenging off-road conditions, i.e. very rocky mountain trails, and maybe fast off-road descents.

 

If it was me, I'd just convert your push bikes with a couple of CSTs or a Bafang kit and a battery. Total cost a grand. Four grand left over for a couple of nice Summer holidays for you and the other half Tell the kids dad's changed his mind lol.

Edited April 25, 201312 yr by 103Alex1

All hub gears (apart from the Nuvinci which is CVT) require a momentary pause, but as Artstu says, it's no big deal. In fact, the benefit of a hub gear is that if you 'get caught' in the wrong gear, you can change to the correct gear without pedalling. Some people prefer hub gears and others derailleurs. I have always had derailleurs up to 2 years ago but now I'm a big hub gear fan. I would recommend the Alfine 11 over the Nexus 8 if you want to travel at speed under your own power. I have only had a short go with the Nuvinci Harmony so I can't comment on the relative equivalent gear ratios that it covers.

Thanks to you all, but Alex also said "....Huge advantage of hub gears is not having to change down before stopping into the right gear for restarting on a derailleur...."

 

I had to laugh! I think most newcomers to e-bikes face the same uphill struggle trying to get to grips with all of the options available but I actually got so far lost in the fog that I'd forgotten why I'd started looking at e-bikes in the first place....and it was exactly that point that Alex made. It wasn't so much an issue for me but my wife (and I'll deny having said this!) refuses point blank to plan ahead as far as gear changes were concerned and would end up walking up most hills and I'd have to wait at the top - yes we have derailleurs.

 

So Monday's test will be simply hub versus CVT but I have taken on board the enthusiasm for Alfine 11 over Nexus 8.

 

So I'll look at the Alfine 11 Agattus although it looks like the choice of sizes left in the 2012 range is pretty limited - I'm pretty well committed to step-thru rather than x-bar.

 

Maybe the 2013 i11s will be along soon however.

 

JimB

.. glad you're getting focused If you try a step-through Agattu with 11sp Alfine you will definitely see what I mean about the bike size - and comfort factor. Take a look at one side by side with the Sahel i360... it's a bit like a limo vs a mini .

 

Derailleur eBike with no throttle over-ride would be out for me I think, definitely in traffic. That is unless the motor was nippy enough to start on PAS up a steep hill in high gear. It takes too many crank revolutions to multishift effectively on a derailleur bike for my liking... and I completely empathize with your wife. After all, how can you focus properly on the present if you're always having to think about the future ? !

 

Stick a 350W hub motor on the right bike with a throttle though and you really don't need to worry too much about whether you got the gearing right on a start-up !

Edited April 25, 201312 yr by 103Alex1

T

 

So Monday's test will be simply hub versus CVT but I have taken on board the enthusiasm for Alfine 11 over Nexus 8.

 

So I'll look at the Alfine 11 Agattus although it looks like the choice of sizes left in the 2012 range is pretty limited - I'm pretty well committed to step-thru rather than x-bar.

 

 

I wouldn't right off the Nexus 8, Alex has specific and demanding requirements of his bike. Unless you're a serious press on rider an 11 speed will be a bit wasted. Mine will go up Winnats in 2nd gear on full assist, and I can pedal downhill to about 28 mph. If you want more from a bike than that by all means go for the 11 speed.

 

This chart shows how you gain a bit at the top. Don't get me wrong I'd prefer the 11 speed, but how often are you going to be wanting to pedal downhill at around 36 mph ?

 

Here's a good chart

http://www.nuvinci.com/Docs/GearInchChart_N360.pdf

The 'Alfine' is supposedly a better-engineered hub than the 'Nexus', irrespective of gear numbers.

 

But I think I'm right in saying the latest Nexus 8s have Alfine guts, so the two hubs are equal in that respect.

 

As Artstu says, the main benefit of the Alfine 11 is higher top gears, which you may not need.

The 'Alfine' is supposedly a better-engineered hub than the 'Nexus', irrespective of gear numbers.

 

That's correct, I believe the 11 speed Alfine is oil filled and the 8 speed versions grease filled. Alfine 8 is the disc version, Nexus 8 with red stripe for rim brakes, but identical inside. I'd like an 11 speed one day.

 

I could possibly tweak my gearing up a bit, but that would leave me very exposed if I did ever flatten the battery and need to get up a steep hill under my own power.

Edited April 26, 201312 yr by Artstu

Good point Artsu.

 

In fact I have ascertained since last night (thanks to Tim at 50C) that they are not importing the Alfine 11 models this year and all of the 2012 models left are too big for either of us.

 

Re speed, I tested a few bikes at Manifold Valley including a KTM Macina Bold which has Shimano Nexus Premium 8 speed hub (don't know the significance of the 'Premium'. That bike was very impressive indeed. I found, however, that I could easily pedal it at 26mph or more (indicated) on level ground and my cadence rate was as high as I would ever want it to be. I would have liked at least one higher gear then but I was on a fairly short test ride and maybe on a much longer one I would have been happy with what it had.

 

They claim 'up to' 145km with the rather small 8ah battery supplied. I think if it had a 15ah battery it would be right up there as a contender. But I digress, as usual. The point is that I was actually quite happy with the gears once I had remembered that hub gears won't change down under load until you pause pedalling...I actually came to a standstill on the upslope part of that course before I remembered but as Alex has already observed, I was able to change down easily when stationary and it went off like a scalded cat (prob in max assist as I'd been faffing around pushing buttons as we both ran out of steam in 8th gear).

 

But I take your point and my mind is still open if now a bit more focussed than hitherto.

 

Regards,

 

JimB

 

EDIT: Crossed with RobF and Artsu

Re speed, I tested a few bikes at Manifold Valley including a KTM Macina Bold which has Shimano Nexus Premium 8 speed hub (don't know the significance of the 'Premium'. That bike was very impressive indeed. I found, however, that I could easily pedal it at 26mph or more (indicated) on level ground and my cadence rate was as high as I would ever want it to be. I would have liked at least one higher gear then but I was on a fairly short test ride and maybe on a much longer one I would have been happy with what it had.

 

You must be a strong rider to get that clunker up to 26 mph on the flat. I found it really hard work above 16 mph, just like my bike, it's not too bad with a bit of slope helping.

 

My 8 ah battery lasts just 18 to 20 miles up here in the hilly Peak District on full power.

It's not just the top end of the gearing range on 11sp Alfine, it's also to some extent at the bottom end you get an advantage of more appropriate gear selection. It makes most difference if you are not riding under power - as I found very early on when conditioning my battery and winding up 2 miles from home with a full bike load of shopping, some steep climbs back and no power !

 

Speed-wise, yes - reaching 26mph on the flat on a heavy bike means JimB must be a very strong rider. I guess the eBike is needed to equalise things on a paired ride especially at lower speeds or on hills ? I don't achieve more than 23mph on the flat - and I can't sustain that for long. Not being endowed with a particularly hefty set of quads, despite having 9% body fat I'm not physically strong enough to ride the bike any faster. But I do use gear range 9-11 every day - and often.

 

On a hub vs CVT I think you will choose the CVT without hesitation if compared to an 8sp. Handy that - as the bike prices for CVT are so much higher lol.

I don't know if 11 gear ratios are necessary on an electric bike, especially a crank driven one. A wide range of ratio between the lowest and highest can be useful though. I know the 11 speed hub has a wider gear range than the 8 speed, but it isn't that critical on a crank driven bike.

 

I have an Alfine 8 speed on my bike (Pro Connect) and never felt the need for more ratios. The motor makes each gear ratio much more flexible than when used on muscle power alone. It's possible to pull away in a high gear, thanks to the additional effort provided by the motor and I often find myself skipping several gears at a time as I build up speed. If you wish, you can fit a 16 tooth rear sprocket to the 8 speed hub which will give you a decent top speed at a sensible pedal cadence. You lose out a bit with the lower ratios, but the motor compensates and you can temporarily turn up the power if you start to struggle.

 

I think the 11 speed hub is aimed more at the unassisted cyclist where more ratios can be useful. For a crank driven electric bike, an 8 speed Nexus / Alfine is entirely adequate, 11 Speed is unnecessary.

 

 

FPO

.....You must be a strong rider to get that clunker up to 26 mph on the flat......

 

Without touchline technology or an action replay I can't confirm the speed but the whiff of disbelief is so strong that I'm beginning to doubt it myself:rolleyes:

 

Whatever speed it was I still felt that I could have gone a bit faster if I'd had a higher gear...but it doesn't really matter, to me, much.

 

I'll see how we get on with the Nexus 8 and note Alex has moved from selling 11 speed Alfine to Nuvinci without even batting an eyelid;)

 

Must be on commission or the promise of a free repair.

 

Don't mention double glazing to him, for heaven's sake!

 

Artsu, maybe one of these days we'll meet up in the hills.

 

50 Hertz, I hope to find that you are correct, if only to diminish Alex's commission. BTW, you did a sterling job holding off those Mexicans in the Alamo the other day. I nearly wandered along with my Gatling gun but I had a quick look round the corner and you were doing just fine on your own;)

 

JimB

Artsu, maybe one of these days we'll meet up in the hills.

 

Yes one day perhaps. I should have paid more attention to visitors at Wetton Mill. By the way the Macina Bold's display was reading in km/h when I rode it.

Any more of that and you'll be hoping we don't meet up in the hills:(

 

In that case you were right...if it'll only do 16 mph flat out it is indeed a 'clunker'.

 

I suppose I'll have to explain to all those folk I told that I freewheeled back down the hill at 80 that there may have been a calibration issue caused by a previous rider messing with the equipment.

 

JimB

That's a really interesting graphic of the various gear ratios that you posted Artstu. I guess it's down to personal riding style but I find the cadence required to go above 17mph a bit high for comfort in the Nexus 8 top gear. As commented above, the number of gears is not that important with a power assisted bike but the range from lowest to highest is. As I posted earlier, top gear on the 3spd Brompton hub is perfect for riding at 20mph with a fairly relaxed cadence whilst the lowest gear will go up anything.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news and burst your bubble Jim. You did even have me for a bit, I was wondering why such a powerful top flight cyclist would be looking at e-bikes

 

Still it puts everything in a whole new light now

Edited April 26, 201312 yr by Artstu

That's a really interesting graphic of the various gear ratios that you posted Artstu. I guess it's down to personal riding style but I find the cadence required to go above 17mph a bit high for comfort in the Nexus 8 top gear.

 

I'd hazard a guess that your bike is lower geared than mine. My none electric Dahon with a nexus 8 will also go up to about 26 mph whilst pedalling. It's a lot more lively than the KTM above 16 mph and a nicer bike to ride on a windless flat ride.

So, Artsu, does the Macina Cross Nexus 8 have brackets for guards and carrier?

 

You mention pedalling downhill to the high 20s, I presume that it would be technically possible to pedal up to that speed on the level, if a rider was as fit as me for example? just trying to get an idea of the overall gearing of the bike as I see it can be supplied with a bigger battery with what appears to be a rather extravagant claim re max poss range.

 

BTW, my Burgman 650 goes up Winnatts without me even changing gear - CVT see:eek:

 

JimB

I'll see how we get on with the Nexus 8 and note Alex has moved from selling 11 speed Alfine to Nuvinci without even batting an eyelid;)

 

Not quite ... seeing as you ruled out 11sp Alfine on account of no availability :

 

On a hub vs CVT I think you will choose the CVT without hesitation if compared to an 8sp.

 

That is because the benefits of the greater gearing range for me outweigh the convenience and "just pedal" single speed type riding approach a CVT can offer a leisure cyclist. However without this then pitted against the limitations of the 8sp hub I'd likely plump for the auto-CVT.

 

I think the 11 speed hub is aimed more at the unassisted cyclist where more ratios can be useful. For a crank driven electric bike, an 8 speed Nexus / Alfine is entirely adequate, 11 Speed is unnecessary.

 

Sorry, but imho that's complete b*****s. If you ride above 15.5mph that's when the extra gears are actually needed. There have been many instances of people on here saying that they just didn;t feel that there were sufficient gears on their 8sp bikes once they crossed the assist threshold. A cyclist like JimB who is clearly capable of riding above that speed, imho, is precisely the sort of rider who would benefit. Rather than generalize I have tried to be as honest as possible in the context of the person asking the questions and based on my own experience.

 

By all means buy whichever bike suits you - but at least if you end up disappointed in some aspects of its capabilities you've taken that decision willingly and in knowledge that same is likely, not a revelation after the event. If you are not disappointed then you made the right choice.

Edited April 26, 201312 yr by 103Alex1

..........Not quite ... seeing as you ruled out 11sp Alfine on account of no availability.......

 

Calm down Dear!

 

I haven't actually ruled it out, if I believe that will be the right one I'll still get one;

 

Kalkhoff Agattu Premium I11 Impulse 11-G Alfine 2013 mit 100 EUR Neukundenrabatt - Fahrradhaus Lahn

 

...amongst many other sites yet to be investigated. Do you think it's worth £2550? (I've converted from kilometres this time).

 

JimB

No lack of calmness I assure you - just assumed you were only looking at UK-sourced bikes in which case would be a simple case of not being able to get hold of one - so one moves on and looks at what else is there to choose from.

 

On whether it's worth the money ? Always a difficult one and depends whether you mean relatively in the context of the cost of other bikes on the market or absolutely.

 

Relatively, personally I'd say yes. Having seen the seriously ludicrous prices asked for some hybrid eBikes with a "well-recognized branding" but very dubious specs mechanically and (to me) "toy"-like frames, both Bosch and other systems.

 

In absolute terms - without a shadow of a doubt, no. I think pretty much all bikes available (at both upper and lower end of the price scale, eBike and regular) cost about double what I think they are really worth or I'd be willing to pay for them with experience and hindsight. Most components about 3-4 times what I think they are worth - but clearly the market disagrees. I blame Bradley Williams and the amount of disposable income for hobbying and leisure in the world today !

 

Were it not for the battery ageing aspect of 2nd hand eBikes and need to be able to properly verify use (very hard without a non-resettable mileometer ... although you get that on the Kalkhoff LCD and some other types of bike) I would, like regular bikes, go for a good 2nd hand one - if I could get my hands on one at a sensible price !

Edited April 26, 201312 yr by 103Alex1