Briefly, I think I'll take back the comment about the bosch not being suitable, it sounds like you will be able to rise to the occasion when needed, which is really only on the steeper hills.

 

I'm just setting off, you're only 30 miles away, Tea and battery charge and I'll be back home for 9.30 pm.

 

I'm very happy with my new KTM at £1,400.

AVE 2013 models will include Nuvincini on some of the TH models . So you could add them in to the mix depending on when you want the bike. Not available in the UK till later in the year

If I bought the Ergo it would really be because ;

1. it looks better and,

2. that model brings back front suspension whereas the standard Nuvinci loses them in favour of Big Apple tyres (the cheaper Nexus 8 has suspension forks).

JimB

 

I find that the Big Apple tyres don't do a bad job of absorbing some of the lumps and bumps - adequate for poor road surfaces and most cycle tracks. But then I've never been a big fan of suspension.

AVE 2013 models will include Nuvincini on some of the TH models . So you could add them in to the mix depending on when you want the bike. Not available in the UK till later in the year

 

Yes, I've seen the Ave Nuvincis (David?) and can't quite make up my mind but KTM may come out on top yet.

 

JimB

I find that the Big Apple tyres don't do a bad job of absorbing some of the lumps and bumps - adequate for poor road surfaces and most cycle tracks. But then I've never been a big fan of suspension.

 

I have limited experience Jonah but I have experienced them on the Macina Bold without suspension and I hadn't even noticed that there was no suspension during the ride.

 

Therefore, I agree with you.

 

Large Tequila, Mexican meal with Spanish (nearly Mexican) wine Radio Quelite from internet radio now going for expresso and a shot and why is it getting dark so early.

 

Perfick! As they say in Acapulco!

 

 

Hasta la wosname!

 

JimB

AVE 2013 models will include Nuvincini on some of the TH models . So you could add them in to the mix depending on when you want the bike. Not available in the UK till later in the year

 

I quite like the 2013 TH9 LE Step-thru;

 

TH9

 

I see it's pretty widely available on the Continent.

 

When's the UK importer going to ship some?

 

JimB

Edited April 29, 201312 yr by JimB

Whilst we're testing the the Agattu i8 HS step-thru and the Sahel i360 Harmony Step-thru on Monday this is so that I can make a decision regarding Nuvinci over traditional gears and also to see whether the 8 speed suffers from the issue of having to pause pedalling to change down under load (does the 11 speed Alfine also require this?).

 

Did you test any bikes today then, Jim ? If so, what were your thoughts ?

I put a NuVinci N360 on my Tonaro last weekend, replacing the original 8 speed cluster and derailleur. I found this thread last week prior to fitting it, and was a little concerned about the 'treacle' feeling mentioned at the start of this thread when pedalling unassisted - I had not heard of this trait before.

 

However after 60km on the saddle trying it out, I can't say that I have noticed it. I have no pedal assist, only throttle, so ride for extended periods with no assistance (only use it when its needed, where I live is relatively flat). A good section of the ride was on unsealed limestone track, and the bike cruised along nicely (unassisted) at 18 - 22kmh with no noticeable drag.

 

With a 48T chainring and an 18T sprocket though, the gearing is wrong and its a battle to keep a good cadence going at 30+ speeds. Top speed is good though, in the right conditions - I'm fast pedalling at 50kmh whereas before it was a frantic cadence at 44kmh. I have a 46T and a 19T coming so I can see what works best for me.

 

So far, quite happy with N360. Only gripe is it is hard to shift up with the power applied (pedalling is ok, but not under motor power), I find I still have to back off the throttle ever so slightly to do so. Shifting down is fine. Compared to the original freewheel, its bloody quiet!

Did you test any bikes today then, Jim ? If so, what were your thoughts ?

 

Yes Alex, we did but the tests were nothing like exhaustive and I'm loath to come to many conclusions but here are a few impressions.

 

We test rode the Agattu I8 HS Stepthru and the Sahel i360 Harmony Stepthru. I had previously expressed a preference for bikes with 28" wheels but they both had 26".

 

The location of the 50Cycles unit in Loughborough is such that whilst easy to find and park (Driving Test Centre appears to be co-located so plenty of 'L' plates manoeuvring in the car park) the only route nearby which had any hills involved at least initial departure using a busy and hazardous looking main road the my co rider refused at the first fence. That left a nice clear but very flat cycle path leading out in two directions but we tore up and down the part which led to the station a few hundred yards away after a while manoeuvring around the car park areas.

 

The i8 had the Nexus 8 speed hub (no Alfines yet) and unfortunately it was maladjusted so gear changing was largely an unpleasant experience accompanied by snatching pedals and crunching noises from the back end. That notwithstanding the rode well but have no idea what sort of turn of speed I managed as it doesn't come with any controller showing speed and the like. My impression was that it was a pleasant ride, or would be after the gears were adjusted and might be well suited to maybe fairly undemanding riding although I think the gearing is low enough to be of real use on hills. The transmission of electric power was very smooth indeed but thinking back now even at fullish tilt in 8th gear I wasn't aware of hitting 'the wall' so either I wasn't going fast enough (gearing maybe a bit low for me?) or the run off of power was so smooth that I just didn't notice it.

 

The i360 Harmony comes, of course, with the NuVinci Harmony hub and this has a controller fitted on the bars which indicates speed, battery usage, power setting and so on, in addition to the Nuvinci controller which the rider can toggle, via a co-located button, between cadence rate and a sort of manual gear selector albeit one which is, in theory at least, infinitely variable.

 

In the mode where the rider selects their favoured cadence rate you just peddle away and the bike changes gear according to the conditions in order to maintain the selected cadence rate. In that mode the bike is a real 'dawdle' to ride and I have to admit that I immediately felt at home just cycling and not having to think at all about changing gear.

 

The bike did feel as if had effective gear ratio wider than the Nexus 8 but I slipped up in not trying it in manual gear selection mode and going for the highest ratio to see what that produced. The best speed I managed was 20 mph downwind and 18 mph the other way. I have no idea what pressures the tyres were at although the battery was over half charge. I was aware of the power being off at 20 mph but my perception was that the effort required to maintain speed was no or little different to a normally geared bike.

 

If I was being held at gunpoint and being forced to buy a bike and choice was limited to one of those two I would pick the Sahel i360 Harmony without hesitation. The experience at 50C was about as far removed as you get from being held at gunpoint however, and that's both good news and bad news.

 

The bike and transmission were very quiet obviously more so that the Nexus 8 even without the latter's crunching gears. The ride was very comfortable on the Big Apple tyres and we both agreed that it was easily the more comfortable of the bikes to ride even though it does not have suspension forks like the I8 Nexus.

 

If I was being held at gunpoint and being forced to buy a bike and choice was limited to one of those two I would pick the Sahel i360 Harmony without hesitation. The experience at 50C was about as far removed as you get from being held at gunpoint however, and that's both good news and bad news.

 

When we'd finished the ride and the two bikes were parked up outside the premises I stood and looked at them (and had to remind my other half that we'd just £4,300 worth of bikes sitting outside).... (Wot? How much...and so on...). When I was looking at them my own personal view was that I wasn't looking at that sort of value. It was only this morning lying in bed that it dawned (pun almost intended) on me what was bugging me so much about them and it's that they kinda look like kids' bikes and even when riding them they don't seem to have enough 'presence' for you take them seriously.

 

You might think that's a funny thing to say but unfortunately, for me that's my overriding feeling.

 

We then drove over to Cambridge to have a look at the closest, to us, examples of Woosh Bikes as I've been intrigued by those, especially the crank drive Models. We hadn't phoned or booked beforehand although Hatti in Southend had told me that they had demo bikes....we got a friendly and informative welcome from Robert and his colleagues.

 

We tried the Zephyr crank drive folder (the Sirocco CD I'd hoped to try had been sold) and standard hub drive Santana stepthru - it's the forthcoming CD version of that that I was really interested in.

 

I'm going to cut this short as my two typing fingers are hurting already but suffice to say at the moment that I was impressed with the overall quality of these bikes, the standard Santana was adequately powered (battery was a bit low also) and very satisfactory and comfortable to ride. The little Zephyr folder with the Crank Drive was clearly in a higher league and although I wouldn't buy a folder it gave a reasonable insight into what Woosh's full size CD bikes might be capable of.

 

There is only one reason why I didn't come home and immediately reserve two Santana CDs and that's the absence of a torque sensor. The only sensor is a crank speed sensor which detects that the rider is pedalling and then supplies power. The power is applied smoothly but does obviously vary according to what gear you have selected and it seems possible to be in a high enough gear with low cadence for the sensor to think your not pedalling (we were in a country park and not doing a lot of speeding) - and of course the bike will not know how much effort the rider is transmitting to the pedals and cannot therefore react to that.

 

That having been said I think these bikes are good quality and very good value. In my case I feel thay may have spoiled the ship for the happorth (dunno how you spell that) of tar that the cost of installing torque sensors may have added. I know they are not that cheap but I believe this bike would appeal to a lot more people even at a higher price, if it had that.

 

The CD bikes come with a controller which looks exactly the same as the ones fitted to the Kalkhoff Sahel i360 Harmony by the way although the Woosh bikes have the Chinese Manufacturers name on them, which matters not as the whole bike is unashamed good Chinese quality (unless they're buying their parts from Germany now).

 

Footnote - interesting to read StuntManBob's account of his Nuvinci experience - certainly goes to show the value of getting the gearing right but glad his overall impression is also favourable.

 

JimB

Having enjoyed using the Nuvinci Harmony gears on the test ride but looking for front suspension forks and 28" wheels a decision was made which unfortunately involved even more cash (or at least 12 months interest free finance!) with the choice of Kalkhoff Impulse Ergo Nuvinci Harmony;

 

Kalkhoff Impulse Ergo NuVi Harmony 45cm TI 26"

 

I'll have to wait a couple of weeks or so but maybe the post purchase depression will have faded by then.

 

 

JimB

It looks just the job Jim phew you got there in the end

Jim,

 

I'm sure that will be a great choice. Be interested to hear your impressions when it arrives.

Jim,

 

Just noticed the link you included above was for the small frame with 26" wheels (I think). I assume that you ordered the 28" model. Just checking.

Having enjoyed using the Nuvinci Harmony gears on the test ride but looking for front suspension forks and 28" wheels a decision was made which unfortunately involved even more cash (or at least 12 months interest free finance!) with the choice of Kalkhoff Impulse Ergo Nuvinci Harmony;

 

Kalkhoff Impulse Ergo NuVi Harmony 45cm TI 26"

 

I'll have to wait a couple of weeks or so but maybe the post purchase depression will have faded by then.

 

 

 

 

JimB

 

Great bike. I'm sure that you will enjoy it immensely.

Jim,

 

Just noticed the link you included above was for the small frame with 26" wheels (I think). I assume that you ordered the 28" model. Just checking.

 

Jonah, you sure know how to give us old codgers palpitations

 

Yes, I've checked the paperwork and we have ordered 50cm step-thru which has 28" wheels anyway and a 46cm step-thru with 28" wheels which Scott at 50 Cycles kindly put in a special order for.

 

I just picked the first link I found - for the spec and picture.

 

I'll certainly post my genuine impressions of the bike, including the target heart rate feature just as soon as it arrives and I've had a proper opportunity to assess it.

 

They'd better be good!

 

JimB

I thought you might go for it in the end. Really pleased you made a decision - and you've certainly done your homework to rationalize and understand your choices which is great. Well, nothing ventured nothing gained and in all honestly it sounds spot on for you both. Really interesting feedback, thanks for putting it up.

 

The location of the 50Cycles unit in Loughborough is such that whilst easy to find and park (Driving Test Centre appears to be co-located so plenty of 'L' plates manoeuvring in the car park)

 

LOL. OH the humour in that

 

The i8 had the Nexus 8 speed hub (no Alfines yet) and unfortunately it was maladjusted so gear changing was largely an unpleasant experience accompanied by snatching pedals and crunching noises from the back end.

 

.. ouch ... hope you told them .. can wind up a pricey old fix if they're ridden with slipping gears ... don't think it does the hub innards any good at all ! Similar thing can also happen if you put excessive pedal effort in too low a gear (i.e. change up too late - closely followed by pedals spinning freely). I often ride bikes hard and it's one of the reasons I like a big range.

 

The transmission of electric power was very smooth indeed but thinking back now even at fullish tilt in 8th gear I wasn't aware of hitting 'the wall' so either I wasn't going fast enough (gearing maybe a bit low for me?) or the run off of power was so smooth that I just didn't notice it.

 

Highly likely a bit of both. The run-off is very smooth on Impulse bikes and at higher speeds you pretty much feel no more than a gradual reminder of the limitations of the bike's (and your own physical) capabilities. I genuinely believe extra gears make a huge difference - if you have the fitness to use them.

 

The bike did feel as if had effective gear ratio wider than the Nexus 8 but I slipped up in not trying it in manual gear selection mode and going for the highest ratio to see what that produced. The best speed I managed was 20 mph downwind and 18 mph the other way. I have no idea what pressures the tyres were at although the battery was over half charge. I was aware of the power being off at 20 mph but my perception was that the effort required to maintain speed was no or little different to a normally geared bike.

 

That's about what I'd expect. I have to use gears 9-11 and adopt a sportier frame of mind to crack those speeds on the flat on mine. If you tested the 26" version you may find the 28" a little faster above 15.5mph - albeit it'll be harder work uphill in that range - if you ever use it there.

 

In that mode the bike is a real 'dawdle' to ride and I have to admit that I immediately felt at home just cycling and not having to think at all about changing gear.

 

... and this is, I think, where this system will have widespread appeal. It's like having the simplicity of a single speed but with the relative benefits of gearing range for when conditions make that appropriate.

 

The ride was very comfortable on the Big Apple tyres and we both agreed that it was easily the more comfortable of the bikes to ride even though it does not have suspension forks like the I8 Nexus.

 

I'm not sure what the Big Apple tyres are like off-road but they were pretty comfortable on the short track of tar I tested them on. On-road I have to confess, I actually lock out the front suspension unless the road's really bad. The C11 has a suspension seatpost which makes a big difference and really comfortable upright riding position so don't really feel the need for front suspension much ... and bike feels a lot stiffer for climbs locked out too.

 

It's nice to have the suspension there for when you need it though - especially if you're going to be going on tracks a fair bit.

 

There is only one reason why I didn't come home and immediately reserve two Santana CDs and that's the absence of a torque sensor.

 

It makes a huge difference on a crank drive, and the triple-sensor input of the bikes you've bought makes them even more intuitive. Not all torque sensors are responded to equally either. It was after the penny finally dropping how significant this impact was to the ride 'feel' that I ruled out a crank drive conversion. It's all in the controller software with a PAS - provided you have the inputs available to begin with !

Edited May 2, 201312 yr by 103Alex1

When I was looking at them my own personal view was that I wasn't looking at that sort of value. It was only this morning lying in bed that it dawned (pun almost intended) on me what was bugging me so much about them and it's that they kinda look like kids' bikes and even when riding them they don't seem to have enough 'presence' for you take them seriously.

 

That's almost exactly what I felt after going to the NEC show. There was only one bike in there that convinced me to part with the eye-watering sum which followed the next day... and which when it arrived and I unpacked it, took one look and could not deny that it had as much 'presence' (albeit understated) as I was ever going to see, and that was the one I bought. The handlebars, 28" wheels, long wheelbase and particular overall geometry together account for most of that.

 

For some reason, some of the Colnago bikes have the same effect on me - in a different way. There is just something about them and I still can't entirely put my finger on it. But you just take one look and go - OK it's way more than I'd want to pay but it looks and feels like a serious bike and I'm not going to get this any other way than coughing up. So FFS take the money and let me ride it to instantly put out of my mind what I just did

 

Sometimes no matter how much your rational mind is trying to persuade you otherwise your default position is deep down inside knowing that you won't really feel at home with much compromising . For all my protestations, I've been trying to re-educate such tendencies all my adult life - with varying degrees of success. It's a most perplexing affliction to manage out sometimes !

Edited May 2, 201312 yr by 103Alex1

Thanks for your posts Alex.

 

I've been out most of the day - Aldi twice this morning hoovering up Bike stuff (no yellow jersey though) and a drive up into the hills this afternoon for a walk round Dam Buster territory in the Derwent Valley - turned out to be 7 miles which is as much as I want to walk but it turned out to be also part of a cycle route and looks ideally suited to some real tests of the bikes when they arrive.

 

I was still researching bikes yesterday and found a thread where someone was trying to make a decision and a forum Sage (might have been d8veh) said something along the lines of ...do all the research you can and then, if you still can't make up your mind, buy the one you most like the look of. I think I did a fair bit of research and the folks on here have been inordinately patient and helpful bearing mind the constant stream of newbies all asking pretty much the same questions (including me).

 

But in the end something has to swing it and in my case the brand's reps were helpful (as were others) and actually made an effort to encourage me to buy.....and then it was down to what I liked the best from those that had the spec I wanted.

 

50 Cycles have their first pair of Ergo demonstrators (with cross bars) arriving any minute and did offer another test ride at Loughborough. I just can't be bothered any more but just mention it in case any one else is interested in these things and want to have a go on one.

 

I didn't choose this bike because it had the target heart rate feature but because it was the only Nuvinci I could get from them which was available with the bigger frame and tyres, but since placing the order I've got a lot more interested in using that feature so it'll be interesting to see how that works out.

 

It might actually produce a much more useful ride if the machine is aiming to achieve a certain heart rate (it doesn't have to that high) rather than a preselected cadence rate. Anyway, we'll see.

 

JimB

 

Edit: Ironically it was the maladjusted Nexus 8 which finally moved me firmly into the Nuvinci camp. I know it would probably have been the work of a few minutes to adjust them but it happened when I was starting to become very weary of the time and effort I'd put in narrow the choices and it just one of those 'Oh bo**locks to it' moments. Time will tell whether that was a good thing or not.

Edited May 2, 201312 yr by JimB

Edit: Ironically it was the maladjusted Nexus 8 which finally moved me firmly into the Nuvinci camp. I know it would probably have been the work of a few minutes to adjust them but it happened when I was starting to become very weary of the time and effort I'd put in narrow the choices and it just one of those 'Oh bo**locks to it' moments. Time will tell whether that was a good thing or not.

 

I don't think you'll regret your choice. The 8sp hub doesn't give enough benefits back to sway over the convenience and simplicity of riding that Nuvinci, all things considered - imho. Forgetting cost, choosing between the two I'd likely plump for the Nuvinci without hesitation.

 

As you say, time will tell.

Edited May 2, 201312 yr by 103Alex1

Ironically it was the maladjusted Nexus 8 which finally moved me firmly into the Nuvinci camp.

 

Even when properly adjusted and when you have the knack they can still give some nasty changes as Alex will attest to. Mine even pulls the back wheel forward just like Alex's bike did. I have no doubt that you would not have got on with a Nexus 8 in comparison with the NuVinci.

Even when properly adjusted and when you have the knack they can still give some nasty changes as Alex will attest to. Mine even pulls the back wheel forward just like Alex's bike did. I have no doubt that you would not have got on with a Nexus 8 in comparison with the NuVinci.

 

Any news?

 

My bike is going well, no wheel movement and some nice gear changes after a slight adjustment.

Further to my earlier post, I've settled with a 52T/20T combination on my NuVinci-enabled Tonaro and this seems to be the ducks nuts. Fantastic acceleration, and pretty good top gearing makes it a good all round combo. Very happy with the N360.

Bikes finally arrived last Friday and been out on them twice this week - 16 miles of pretty flat trail then another which was cut short when, after a rapid ascent of the steepest slope I've ever cycled up, my bike stuck in its lowest gear and started flashing it's one blue eye at me - well the 'Harmony' controller actually. Pedalled a couple of miles back to the car with cadence of about 200!

 

If all else fails RTFM!

 

But with three of them and over a hundred pages I'd missed the simple instruction to hold down the 'harmony' selector for 5 or so seconds to enable the system to calibrate itself which it did when eventually back in the home street.

 

First impressions are - GREAT! Easy to pedal with zero assistance, extremely quiet and no messing around with gears (apart from the above).

 

Only done 4 miles with heart rate monitor but first impressions again are excellent.

 

Was going to do a longer solo run tomorrow with more demanding terrain but Matt from 50 Cycles is coming over to fit a replacement controller on my wife's bike as the original arrived with a cracked casing...but hope to assemble enough info for a more detailed (if somewhat non technical) appraisal soon.

 

Jim

Bikes finally arrived last Friday and been out on them twice this week - 16 miles of pretty flat trail then another which was cut short when, after a rapid ascent of the steepest slope I've ever cycled up, my bike stuck in its lowest gear and started flashing it's one blue eye at me - well the 'Harmony' controller actually. Pedalled a couple of miles back to the car with cadence of about 200!

 

If all else fails RTFM!

 

But with three of them and over a hundred pages I'd missed the simple instruction to hold down the 'harmony' selector for 5 or so seconds to enable the system to calibrate itself which it did when eventually back in the home street.

 

Jim

 

Hi Jim,

Interesting that your Ergo had this calibration problem, as when my Sahel i360 had this problem in March 2014 it took till May 2014 and a Firmware upgrade to sort this out. I did read the manual.

And today the same happened after I fitted a new battery. It 'stuck' in a low gear and I had to cycle home at maximum revolutions and just made an apparent 15mph. Fortunately it was an OK gear to make the hills.

I havent had a moment to recalibrate the controller yet.

 

Have you had any recurrence of this problem?