February 7, 201412 yr I'm not expecting my chain to never wear out! If its not a manufacturing fault, then it's a design fault because in my view it will not meet the Sale of Goods Act as being fit for purpose. It should NOT fail after 5 months. I've just paid £33 for a new chain and cassette - an expense that I never imagined I would have after such a short time of careful riding and weekly chain lubrication. I suspect many other riders would be of the same opinion what did the shop say you bought it from? you shouldnt need to replace the cassette if you replace the chain at regular intervals. 5 months of use means its not a manufacturing fault, and also is fit for purpose. it might have just been one particularly wet, gritty road ride that killed it. and if you're only lubing it weekly, that could be the problem. You should be doing it cleaning it after most rides and lubing it a lot over the winter. What sort of lube are you using? some attracts more grit that can cause premature wear.
February 7, 201412 yr Author As Dave has indicated earlier though, they are a consumable so not a normal warranty item. On a crank drive e-bike the usage is essentially abnormal for a bicycle chain, which weakens any claim. Well no, because if it was abnormal, then the chain wasn't fit for purpose in the first place.
February 7, 201412 yr Author what did the shop say you bought it from? you shouldnt need to replace the cassette if you replace the chain at regular intervals. 5 months of use means its not a manufacturing fault, and also is fit for purpose. it might have just been one particularly wet, gritty road ride that killed it. and if you're only lubing it weekly, that could be the problem. You should be doing it cleaning it after most rides and lubing it a lot over the winter. What sort of lube are you using? some attracts more grit that can cause premature wear. Yes the supplier is looking into this. I wouldn't have thought that you could over lube a chain? I admit to not not cleaning it after every ride, though as I said it's only really been used on fine days. I use White Lightning Clean Ride. My method was to first apply some car engine oil onto each link, and wait a while till it penetrated the links. Then wipe it off and apply the Clean Ride. I did this every 1 to 2 weeks. It's only been in the rain 3 times and on some muddy bike tracks a few times. My expectation was that the wax coating should fend off any nasty stuff. After comparing the new cassette with the old one, there wasn't a huge difference I must say, though I'm not an expert on what is acceptable wear - I just replaced it on the safe side.
February 7, 201412 yr Author john, does the chain sit on the rear cogs properly? if it does not, how many links are out? colin, I think manufacturers should tell their customers what is the average expectancy for the chain on a crank bike, for example, 1200-1500 miles for 90kgs riders. You ought to know the figure. If the wear is substantially above average, then it's only fair that it's replaced FOC for the customers. Trex Yes the alignment was ok, although I haven't needed to tweak it.
February 7, 201412 yr Well no, because if it was abnormal, then the chain wasn't fit for purpose in the first place. I'm afraid yes, it is abnormal. Bicycle transmissions and chain sizes are designed for bicycle rider power, typically for a fit person 200 watts for an hour continuous or 100 watts for 5 hours. Shoving up to 800 watts or over 400 watts continuous through them is not normal for the design. So yes, bicycle transmissions are not fit for purpose on crank drive e-bikes which is what I meant. It's not just derailleur chains, Shimano discontinued their 4 speed gear hub after they were wrecked by the original Panasonic crank units and some of today's crank drive units can exceed the stated torque limits for Shimano's current hub gears, leading to problems. Hence my earlier comment that the best option is a NuVinci gearhub with a larger size chain or toothed belt drive.
February 7, 201412 yr A wider chain wouldn't be any stronger. In fact it would be weaker if it were wider than the sprockets. To be longer lasting, it would need bigger (diameter) rollers, or to be made of a tougher material, or have special design features to hold the lubricant in and the dirt out.
February 7, 201412 yr I disagree, a wider chain on a correct width sprocket gives greater bearing areas to both roller and rivet and thus is longer lasting. Trade bike 5/32" chains to handle much greater loadings are stronger than 3/32" or 1/8" chains for example. Edited February 7, 201412 yr by flecc
February 7, 201412 yr Sounds like this is an area where designers really need to concentrate rather than the fanciful 'artistic' frames etc. that they do produce. For a crank driver, I would prefer 4 well spaced derailleur gears with a wide chain. If crank drivers continue to increase in popularity, I think that there would be a market for Shimano, SRAM etc.
February 7, 201412 yr Sounds like this is an area where designers really need to concentrate rather than the fanciful 'artistic' frames etc. that they do produce. Definitely. The problem holding back Shimano is probably the still small size of the e-bike market. The exception, The Netherlands, isn't a problem for transmissions, partly due to the lack of hills and partly due to the Dutch in consequence mostly liking simple hub motors. Now that that Shimano have their own e-bike system division with a crank drive, maybe that will stimulate them to design something specific.
February 7, 201412 yr Definitely. The problem holding back Shimano is probably the still small size of the e-bike market. The exception, The Netherlands, isn't a problem for transmissions, partly due to the lack of hills and partly due to the Dutch in consequence mostly liking simple hub motors. Now that that Shimano have their own e-bike system division with a crank drive, maybe that will stimulate them to design something specific. The strange thing is that on my Tonaro, it has always been the 11 tooth sprocket that wears and causes chain skip. I only use this gear on the flat, the really tough work (and consequently high wattage) is on the larger sprockets going up hills.
February 7, 201412 yr When we talk of chain wear, exactly what do we mean? Do the fish plates stretch, or is it a matter of the rollers getting smaller, or the rivets reducing in diameter?
February 7, 201412 yr Chains wear on the inside between the rollers and the Well no, because if it was abnormal, then the chain wasn't fit for purpose in the first place. It's a bit like buying a torch with a battery included. You can't make a claim that the battery is defective because it ran out after a few hours use. The chain is a consumable item just like a battery.
February 7, 201412 yr I've just paid £33 for a new chain and cassette What sort of bike is it? I reckon the original equipment chain was about the cheapest KMC make, say retail about £6. My Rose has a Shimano Dura-ace chain which retails at about £35. Spending £33 on a chain and cassette is not going to get you anything of good quality, so I'm afraid the problem will recur.
February 7, 201412 yr Author What sort of bike is it? I reckon the original equipment chain was about the cheapest KMC make, say retail about £6. My Rose has a Shimano Dura-ace chain which retails at about £35. Spending £33 on a chain and cassette is not going to get you anything of good quality, so I'm afraid the problem will recur. Woosh santAna cel. My new kit is basic Shimano kit i think. Maybe 2 ways to go. Buy cheapest chains and discard after 200 miles say or go for the most durable and expensive and hope it pays for itself. Trouble is how would I know?
February 7, 201412 yr Author Woosh santAna cel. My new kit is basic Shimano kit i think. Maybe 2 ways to go. Buy cheapest chains and discard after 200 miles say or go for the most durable and expensive and hope it pays for itself. Trouble is how would I know? Should have mentioned the original chain was a stainless one. I couldn't find it on the KMC web site
February 7, 201412 yr Trouble is how would I know? I could suggest to you the more expensive parts will last longer, but you won't truly know until you try them with your riding conditions and cleaning regime. When I had the gearing changed on the Rose, the mechanic checked the chain for wear - he could measure hardly any with his Park Tools gauge. This was after about 750 miles, so I reckon the dearer chain is worth having on a crank drive ebike.
February 7, 201412 yr Prime example of why a chain should not be covered by warranty.. For my part, wearing the chain out after 500miles isn't any real surprise, and I rightly don't consider them to be anything other than a wear and tear component. Going out and getting the chain into the kind of state below is never going to do any of the drive train favours, although I think that most damage is caused by riding on the bridleways that become very sandy and gritty when dry. The key to chains is to look after them and ensure that you use the right lubricants. The chain and cassette that came fitted to the BH was probably very low quality, but I have mixed feelings towards putting an expensive chain on. I think that now I'd rather put on two cheap chains to one expensive one, before the need to change the cassette and chainring. I also prefer to change a chain before it's worn out, and so potentially prolonging the life of the cassette and chainrings. Chain checkers cost next to nothing to buy, and are simple enough to use. Hard life for a chain. http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/208/4wur.jpg But it's never neglected after riding. http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/20/hbmw.jpg Edited February 7, 201412 yr by EddiePJ
February 7, 201412 yr The strange thing is that on my Tonaro, it has always been the 11 tooth sprocket that wears and causes chain skip. I'm not surprised Mike, sprockets below about 13 teeth always suffer high wear even on unpowered bikes. It's mainly the greatly reduced number of teeth sharing the load which causes high wear at each contact point.
February 7, 201412 yr that is true... in ours it says this: Exchanging Intervals for Chains and Cogsets Chains should be renewed after 1500-3000 km in order to avoid unnecessary wear of the chainrings and therefore increased costs! The chain’s mileage de- pends on the use-intensity and the care. Let your KTM dealer check the chain and the cassette regularly� but that doesn't mean you can claim for a new one if yours doesn't last 1500km. "F" me, I've just one 800 km in not much over two weeks. You saying I need to replace my chain every month or so? How much does a chain cost?
February 7, 201412 yr "F" me, I've just one 800 km in not much over two weeks. You saying I need to replace my chain every month or so? How much does a chain cost? for me when I was racing, I replaced a chain every 30 miles (I was racing DH). however its not about miles, or about time... you replace a chain when its worn out, and you check this with a chain wear indicator. They aren't expensive, just a matter of a few quid. Brands have to have something in their manuals to give a rough mileage to warn people to be on the look out. In practice you can get much more than that out of one, if you look after it.
February 7, 201412 yr for me when I was racing, I replaced a chain every 30 miles (I was racing DH). I was stunned when a mate told me that when he was cycle road racing, he could cane one in 100miles. 30 miles is scary.
February 7, 201412 yr its more to do with how much you're prepared to risk and the amount you're relying on a chain. I had chains snap out of the start gate twice when I was racing DH. When you've traveled all the way to Canada for a race, you don't want that happening. So you start taking less and less risks, so for me, I'd replace them every couple of races. Better a new chain, than a wasted weekend.
February 7, 201412 yr I'd never given that a second thought until then. I have a mate who has competed a couple of times in the Mega Avalanche race, and now that you say that, I recall watching the races on YouTube and also recall seeing the frequently snapped chains, and thinking that it must be devastating to have that happen.
February 7, 201412 yr that is true... in ours it says this: Exchanging Intervals for Chains and Cogsets Chains should be renewed after 1500-3000 km in order to avoid unnecessary wear of the chainrings and therefore increased costs! The chain’s mileage de- pends on the use-intensity and the care. Let your KTM dealer check the chain and the cassette regularly� but that doesn't mean you can claim for a new one if yours doesn't last 1500km. "Depends on the use-intensity and care." This says it all. I bought an inexpensive road bike in 2007 and sold it in 2013. It had at least 8,000 miles on it and had the original chain, chainset, and cassette. This included weekly time trials and races. My BH City 700 is soon to hit 3,000 miles with no evident wear. Not everyone is going to maintain their kit to the degree I do but, for me, it is the secret to my success. I spray with GT85 every two weeks. About once a month I use a heavy spray of GT85 and scrub with a toothbrush. This followed by a rinse spray and final clean with a dry cloth. Then I oil each link with a quality cycle lube. Followed with a light spray of GT85 to help the heavier oil penitrate the links and rollers. Finish with wiping away any excess lube. If it has been unusually wet, I increase my frequency..
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