February 7, 201412 yr the chain gets longer, because the plates stretch. Chains do not generally stretch in use. Yes they do get longer and this is due a tiny amount of wear within each link. Cumulative lengthening. Of course they can physically stretch if seriously loaded outside the design parameters. If anyones interested, I have calibrated load test machine at work. Can provide figures of physical stretch for given loads.
February 8, 201412 yr Woosh santAna cel. My new kit is basic Shimano kit i think. Maybe 2 ways to go. Buy cheapest chains and discard after 200 miles say or go for the most durable and expensive and hope it pays for itself. Trouble is how would I know? you should insist on having a free replacement chain. However, if the problem is only chain stretch while it's still sitting properly on the cogs then replacement may be premature unless the chain starts skipping.
February 8, 201412 yr I just checked my Tonaro Esprit now admittedly hub gear ,but with a drive that draws over 600w and when I first got it I had no trouble taking that over 1kw combined in bursts and I just measured zero wear over 10" @ roughly 1500 km. I would change your lubing procedure if the chain is not factory faulty. I'm in the look after them and they will look after you crowd. I stopped checking my bikes after finding zero measurable wear at 6,000 km's on my trikes, I clean/lube at least every 100 km, I only ever use Prolink Gold as Green speed recommended it.
February 8, 201412 yr Author You can't use the 9 or 10 speed chains on your 7 speed derailleur. Not only are they less strong, they are too narrow and will not sit down properly onto your wider sprockets. The internal chain width of 9 and 10 speed chains is generally 11/128" (2.18mm) rather than 3/32" (2.38mm). My suggestion is to use the highest quality 7/8 speed chain that you can buy, but not the Rohloff 24 carat gold plated one at £124.99 of course. KMC's equivalent of their recommendation for your bike is the X8 series. One problem to watch out for is that standard chains have only 114 or 116 links, too short for you, and that's true of the KMC X8. I tend to buy two of a brand/type that I can consistently get and use one for add-on bits for each successive purchase. Here's the complete size listing: Trade bikes = 5/32" chain roller/sprocket teeth width Hub and Single gear = 1/8" chain roller/sprocket teeth width Up to 8 speed derailleur = 3/32" chain roller/sprocket teeth width 10/11 speed vary by maker, so for all derailleurs it's best to measure the overall chain width: 3-8 speed - 7.2mm (all brands) 9 speed - 6.8mm (all brands) 10 speed - 6.2mm (Shimano) 10 speed (narrow) - 5.9mm (Campagnolo) 11 speed - 5.5mm (Campagnolo) Bicycle chain pitch (rivet centre to rivet centre) is always 1/2". The KMC X8-93 looks good and only £10.87 from Amazon. It states it's for 8 speed though, and mine is 7 speed. Is this an issue?
February 8, 201412 yr No, that same chain size is used for anything from 5 to 8 speed derailleurs. Only 9 to 11 speed ones need special narrower sizes.
February 8, 201412 yr Agreed that chains are a consumable. I have generally got on well with SRAM chains but in the last few years I have changed to KMC because I was wearing out SRAM chains in about 4 months when they used to last almost 8 months (I always replace them before they wear out the cassette). My experience tells me that SRAM chains don't last like they used to. I did once have a chain which was manufactured to a very poor standard: Back in the 90s, I once had a completely new Sachs (this company was bought some years ago by SRAM) chain snap on me up a hill (riding my non electric mountain bike). I was spinning and not grinding out of the saddle up the hill so there was not an unreasonable amount of torque. A plate had snapped right around a pin making me fall off the bike right on the top tube (painful especially for a bloke). I rejoined it and rode home carefully. When I got home I cleaned it up really well and looked at it under a spot light. There were small cracks round many joining plates where the pins fitted in. I rung up the supplier to make a warranty claim and they agreed (initially they were reluctant until I said I would send them photographic evidence) it was a manufacturing defect and they sent me a new chain. Not heard of anyone coming across this before with a new chain. I expect it is very rare.
February 8, 201412 yr My partners dutch bike, front hub motor driven has been used in all weathers for the last two years, thousands of miles. Oiled the chain only once since purchased. No measurable stretch or wear. Reason? Fully enclosed chain guard. The chain is like new. Only possible on a hub gear setups.. Is it about time we insisted on covers for all hub gear commuter, shopper type bikes?
February 8, 201412 yr And some other things I have noticed over the many years (15 plus) I have been mountain biking and 1 year riding my e bike... 7 and 8 speed set ups always seemed to have chains which lasted longer. This is probably because the sprockets are thicker than 9sp ones. Since 9sp came along I have always found the cassettes not lasting like the older 7sp and 8sp ones. Use a decent chain cleaning device, good quality degreaser and decent lube. Don't buy the cheapest lube or think WD40 or GT85 is going to do the job - it WON'T. Keep you chain CLEAN. You will need to clean and re-lube it much more often in the winter months. The ice, salt, mud and grit from the road make a nasty grinding paste which totally kills chains, sprockets and chain rings especially if you let it all build up. Buy a chain wear checker tool like the one Park tools make. It is money well spent and very easy to use and better method than using a ruler. Buy a good quality chain but don't spend megabuck on expensive (lightweight) ones which are anodised gold or red. They do not last any longer and are a waste of money. I recommend ones from KMC.
February 8, 201412 yr Use a decent chain cleaning device KMC won't thank you for saying that http://www.kmcchain.eu/maintenance
February 8, 201412 yr No measurable stretch or wear. Reason? Fully enclosed chain guard. The chain is like new. Only possible on a hub gear setups.. Is it about time we insisted on covers for all hub gear commuter, shopper type bikes? Trouble is that they are unpopular in the UK due to the complication of removing a rear wheel. Some full enclosures are very poor in this respect. But there's no doubt about the benefits. Best of all years ago were the Sunbeam totally enclosed oilbath chaincases which ran the chain through oil at the bottom of of the chainwheel. With no dirt of any kind and perfect lubrication, in those the chains and sprockets lasted indefinitely, seemingly unable to wear out.
February 8, 201412 yr The MZ Simson moped had a fully enclosed chain with flexible rubber tubes, and the sprocket and chain stayed in place on the swing-arm when the wheel was removed, and yes the chain never needed any attention. Mike Burrows GRP city bike had a fully enclosed chain, I guess it never made production. Or did it, the Gocycle could be it.
February 8, 201412 yr Trouble is that they are unpopular in the UK due to the complication of removing a rear wheel. Some full enclosures are very poor in this respect. But there's no doubt about the benefits. Best of all years ago were the Sunbeam totally enclosed oilbath chaincases which ran the chain through oil at the bottom of of the chainwheel. With no dirt of any kind and perfect lubrication, in those the chains and sprockets lasted indefinitely, seemingly unable to wear out. Flecc you are right, not popular. Yes they do make wheel removal more difficult but by clever design this could be made easier. I believe it is more to do with fashion and street cred. Honda knew something about chain life when they designed the C90. Sure it wasn't cool but it was very good at what it did.
February 9, 201412 yr The MZ Simson moped had a fully enclosed chain with flexible rubber tubes, and the sprocket and chain stayed in place on the swing-arm when the wheel was removed, and yes the chain never needed any attention. Mike Burrows GRP city bike had a fully enclosed chain, I guess it never made production. Or did it, the Gocycle could be it. I remember the MZ Simpson. They were for the astute buyer. When I look back it, we all should have had one of those. It would have probably have been a hell of a lot more reliable than my spark plug eating Puch MV50 Grandprix. As kids we also used to ride around on oil bath 1950's or 1960's bikes, and from what I recall the chains were always seemingly perfect. I think that the biggest issue with any bike chain is that unless you have an enclosed geared hub, we are all asking too much from a chain. Expecting a chain to transfer load sideways as we change up and down gears is never going to help with wear issues. It was also drummed into me to keep the driveline as straight as possible when riding, which is complete common sense, but I wonder how often that people don't. Edited February 9, 201412 yr by EddiePJ
February 9, 201412 yr Many motorbikes made wheel removable easy by leaving the sprocket in place. The BSA Gold Flash was one example. The sprocket had a hollow stub axle, through which the main pin passed. IIRC, The Honda CD175 and most of their other small commuters had the same arrangement. I don't ever remember taking the chain-guard off to remove the wheel. In fact I don't think you had to take it off to change the chain. You could easily make a single-sided rear like Cannondale do on their front. I have that arrangement on my Honda NVT. It takes less than a minute to take the wheel off.
February 9, 201412 yr Yes, we've had a few front and rear single sided bicycles giving easy tyre removal and in the odd case wheel removal too. Including the GoCycle of course, the Giant Halfway folder and the Mike Burrows designs; 8freight, Ratcatcher, Citybike etc. On his last city bike design the chaincase was the structural rear chainstay as well.
February 9, 201412 yr I think that we have to accept that mechanically speaking, the derailleur is horrible and heavy chain and sprocket wear is inevitable. Unfortunately, there are not enough ebikes around to make alternatives financially sensible to manufacturers. Sturmey Archer made a three speed hub including a clutch prior to the first World War for motorcycles, so there is hope! The problem for ebikes is making a hub gear with sufficiently wide a range of ratios. On the other side of the coin, electric hub motors are improving and may one day challenge the hill climbers of the crank driver variety.
February 9, 201412 yr On the other side of the coin, electric hub motors are improving and may one day challenge the hill climbers of the crank driver variety. They already do. Try the KTM P series, or the more powerful Kudos, Ezee and Woosh variants - and there's more to come,
February 9, 201412 yr electric hub motors are improving and may one day challenge the hill climbers of the crank driver variety. A hub motor only really needs two gears to be able to match any crank drive's motor ability in any road circumstances, particularly for e-bikes conforming to the pedelec legal assist speed limit. Trying to fit in two gears with a capable hub motor within bicycle frame confines while allowing for a derailleur cassette is the real problem. SRAM's two speed hub motor can only manage to have a single rider gear for example. Probably the best solution is a two speed hub motor with the rider's gears integrated into the bottom bracket in hub gear fashion. The latter has been tried, but there are weight and bulk problems and it's difficult to obtain wide gear ranges. Or have the two speed hub motor in the front wheel.
February 9, 201412 yr I recently bought a Woosh Gale folder. With its 20 inch wheels, its top speed is only 12 mph. What shocked me was just how well it climbs hills. It seems obvious that if the motor had two gears, the first slightly lower than present and the higher one allowing 15mph then things would be fine. Putting the motor in the front wheel and having say 4 widely spaced hub gears at the back would be ideal. Like all small folders, the Gale pedalling gears are too low and even at 12mph I am spinning like mad. But that is easily rectified
February 9, 201412 yr xiongda makes a front hub XD motor. It has two reduction ratios, 4 to 1 and 8 to 1. It's the black one in the middle of the picture. http://xiongdamotor.en.alibaba.com/product/1520641981-220560510/Double_speed_Motor.html Shemozzle discussed it earlier. http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/dual-speed-motor.16634/
February 9, 201412 yr Yes, I noticed that Xionda and with a claimed 600 watts max it looks powerful enough for the job. I wonder how robust it is with motor and gears packed into that small space though. Of course although this solves the rear wheel gear problems with two speed hub motors, I do also wonder about traction problems in the lower gear with front wheel drive.
February 9, 201412 yr I am a little concerned about the longevity of the Xiongda XD. Clutch failure is the most frequent fault in hub motors, if one of the two clutches failed, it may be expensive to repair. There isn't probably be a 'best' motor solution, rear hubs are prone to breaking spokes, front hubs may lose traction on very steep hills, crank motors may stretch your chain.
February 9, 201412 yr There isn't probably be a 'best' motor solution, rear hubs are prone to breaking spokes, front hubs may lose traction on very steep hills, crank motors may stretch your chain. Indeed, it adds up to the fact that e-bikes are a mass of compromises, rather than a vehicle type designed from bottom up.
February 9, 201412 yr KMC won't thank you for saying that http://www.kmcchain.eu/maintenance That's really odd - I really can't see how KMC can justify that about chain cleaning devices. Why should their chain be any different from all the others?
February 9, 201412 yr That's really odd - I really can't see how KMC can justify that about chain cleaning devices. Why should their chain be any different from all the others? I don't know, but they certainly don't like them. Your regime certainly works for you, like you say odd.
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