As long as riders are blasting through public areas in an irresponsible manner then there is no problem with bikes that have been....designed....to do 25/28mph. For the rest, myself included (mine assists to 21 mph) then again I see little problem after all the police have been allowing people to drive at 85mph on motorways and turning a blind eye yet that is breaking the law.

I think they should work out what Wattage motor would get 90% of the UK population up a certain gradient of hill and cap the speed to say 17mph like now, that way everyone regardless of size will get the same riding experience. Take a 50cc motorbike, it will propel anyone to the maximum speed of 33mph and then the limiter cuts in.

 

So in theory you could put a 1000w motor on a e-bike which would take a 20st person at 17mph up "x" gradient of hill and this same motor would take a 10st person at the same limited 17mph up the same hill.

 

Does this sound daft?

A bit of exaggeration there Tim!

 

The sophisticated Giant Lafree lite (below) was here in 2001 years before you started up and the Yamaha PAS models in 1999, a long way before you appeared. Both were quality good performing pedelecs and hardly monsters. The Lafree weighed just 22 kilos fully equipped with mudguards, mudflaps, strong carrier, lights and wheel lock, a weight many manufacturers still struggle to get down to today for such a well equipped e-bike.

 

I did say 'brought back' crank drives - by the time we began selling them again (after an early stint selling crank-drive Honda and Panasonic folding ebikes) in 2007, neither the Giant Lafree nor the Yamaha PAS were being manufactured. Kalkhoff (and Swiss Flyer) picked up the torch with the centre drives.

 

It was seeing someone riding a Giant Lafree in central London around 2001-2002 that sparked the awareness that lead to this business, I hadn't given electric bikes a single thought until that moment. I very much respect their pioneering status.

Edited April 1, 201412 yr by Tim

 

Does this sound daft?

 

To me it does, sorry. I'd take low power and assist to whatever speed the bike is capable of any day.

 

In that recent Guardian article about the 10 things that stopped people riding bikes was the inability to keep up with the flow of traffic, any legal e-bike hinders that ability in a lot of situations, apart from uphill.

Edited April 1, 201412 yr by Artstu

To me it does, sorry. I'd take low power and assist to whatever speed the bike is capable of any day.

 

In that recent Guardian article about the 10 things that stopped people riding bikes was the inability to keep up with the flow of traffic, any legal e-bike hinders that ability in a lot of situations, apart from uphill.

 

I would almost say the opposite, E-bikes do hinder if you are over weight going uphill, on a flat and downhill they are limited to a certain speed, this speed has been determined as the average speed of a cyclist using pedal power alone.

 

Do you really need to keep up with the flow of traffic on a pushbike? I would say you need to buy an electric moped if this is a requirement.

 

If you weight 70kg a 200W ebike will get you everywhere but once you start putting 110KG of weight behind the handlebars it's a whole different ball game.

I don't agree with anything you're saying Ronnyuk, lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Sorry Artstu, I re read your post and you said you would take low power and assist over speed, this is exactly what I am saying lol, my fault, I am not really interested in top speed either but the ability to get up hills.

 

I think the bit where you linked to a guardian article about keeping up with traffic being something you require threw me a bit.

Sorry Artstu, I re read your post and you said you would take low power and assist over speed, this is exactly what I am saying lol, my fault, I am not really interested in top speed either but the ability to get up hills.

 

No you read it correctly the first time.

 

To me it does, sorry. I'd take low power and assist to whatever speed the bike is capable of any day.

 

So if the bike has gearing for 32 mph, I want it to assist me up to that, a bike that works with me all of the time if I choose to want it to. Not some overpowered rocket ship that flies up hills and then becomes a slug at 15.5 mph.

Edited April 2, 201412 yr by Artstu

The American showman and self publicist Phineas T Barnum coined the phrase'theres no such thing as bad publicity'. He went on to establish a museum of hoaxes,tricks and freaks that were a collection of illusions promoted by his own delusion of success.

His illusions were so convincing that he thought 'there's a sucker born every minute'. He died a happy,contented and wealthy man surrounded by his collection of freaks, some say that on his death bed they heard him say 'there's no such thing as bad publicity!

KudosDave

As a purchaser AND returner of the BS10 due to its illegality for road use together with its almost insurability I would suggest that you reconsider your purchase .I settled for a compliant Kalkoff .The IMPULSE Harmony Nu Vinci.I am a cyclist not a Dealer and talk from personal experience

 

Ans we have very different needs for the ebike too, but thanks for your opinion

Getting back to the crux of the OP - how can someone get an illegal bike on any of the C2W schemes?

 

What you need to do is deceive the operators of the scheme by telling lies. You tell them that you are buying a bicycle when in fact your intention is to buy a moped which you will ride uninsured, unregistered and all of the other things.

 

You do need to be comfortable with lies, fraud, committing traffic offences, jeopardising Ebike easements in law and putting at risk the cost savings benefits of Cycle to Work type schemes, so quite a self centred and generally dishonest attitude is helpful too.

 

Did I mention stupid? You do need to have been blessed with a good dollop of stupidity. Stupidity helps you construct the case for illegal bikes by enabling the conception of such phrases as:

 

"I used to ride a fast motorbike, so I know how to use speed appropriately."

 

"The 15 MPH cut off is too slow. I can exceed this speed down hill and road bikes pass me at a higher speed."

 

"The police don't care and are not at all knowledgeable about Ebike law, so I have nothing to worry about."

 

"I don't like the 15 MPH assist cut off, it doesn't suit me."

 

"Car drivers aren't restricted, why should I be?"

 

The very stupid believe that all of the above form the basis of a justification for riding an illegal bike. They can't understand that an Ebike, which is effectively a motorised vehicle, enjoys some very generous easements in law. Very generous indeed when you look at the restrictions placed on other forms of motorised transport. But for the stupid, this isn't enough, they want more and more. If the limit was raised to 25 MPH, they'd want 30. What the stupid and dishonest really want is motorbike / moped performance with bicycle legislation and bicycle running costs in terms of tax and insurance. That is their Holly Grail.

 

I can empathise with the guys who stick to selling the legal bikes. These traders stick to the rules and act responsibly, whilst the irresponsible ones effectively undercut / undermine them with their illegal offerings. Some credit must go to those who trade in legal bikes, because if everyone sold the 15 MPH+ mopeds, make no mistake about it, something would be done and we would all suffer the consequences. There must be a temptation to trade in illegal bikes in order to achieve a few more sales, so well done for being principled and resisting. The only reason that we get away with it now is that thankfully only the dishonest, selfish and stupid dabble in the illegal market.

Edited April 2, 201412 yr by tillson

What you need to do is deceive the operators of the scheme by telling lies. You tell them that you are buying a bicycle when in fact your intention is to buy a moped which you will ride uninsured, unregistered and all of the other things.

 

You do need to be comfortable with lies, fraud, committing traffic offences, jeopardising Ebike easements in law and putting at risk the cost savings benefits of Cycle to Work type schemes, so quite a self centred and generally dishonest attitude is helpful too.

 

Did I mention stupid? You do need to have been blessed with a good dollop of stupidity. Stupidity helps you construct the case for illegal bikes by enabling the conception of such phrases as:

 

"I used to ride a fast motorbike, so I know how to use speed appropriately."

 

"The 15 MPH cut off is too slow. I can exceed this speed down hill and road bikes pass me at a higher speed."

 

"The police don't care and are not at all knowledgeable about Ebike law, so I have nothing to worry about."

 

"I don't like the 15 MPH assist cut off, it doesn't suit me."

 

"Car drivers aren't restricted, why should I be?"

 

The very stupid believe that all of the above form the basis of a justification for riding an illegal bike. They can't understand that an Ebike, which is effectively a motorised vehicle, enjoys some very generous easements in law. Very generous indeed when you look at the restrictions placed on other forms of motorised transport. But for the stupid, this isn't enough, they want more and more. If the limit was raised to 25 MPH, they'd want 30. What the stupid and dishonest really want is motorbike / moped performance with bicycle legislation and bicycle running costs in terms of tax and insurance. That is their Holly Grail.

 

I can empathise with the guys who stick to selling the legal bikes. These traders stick to the rules and act responsibly, whilst the irresponsible ones effectively undercut / undermine them with their illegal offerings. Some credit must go to those who trade in legal bikes, because if everyone sold the 15 MPH+ mopeds, make no mistake about it, something would be done and we would all suffer the consequences. There must be a temptation to trade in illegal bikes in order to achieve a few more sales, so well done for being principled and resisting. The only reason that we get away with it now is that thankfully only the dishonest, selfish and stupid dabble in the illegal market.

Good points, but don't forget that your bike was illegal when you bought it, and, technically, still is. Where does one draw the line?

The legislation as it currently stands would be a good place to start.

 

When I bought my bike there was an official understanding from a government agency that it was acceptable for road use. There is no such understanding for the bikes we are talking about in this thread. The two situations are entirely different and can't be compared.

Having read these pages since 2008, I think Tillson's piece is the best summary of the criminal practice afflicting our EPAC market I have ever read and it has been discussed many times.

When you resort to calling names, however you dressed it up, it shows that you are quite incapable of holding a coherent and grown-up argument.

I love all this - really! It's great entertainment. I don't know how many times we've been through it before. Nothing's changed. It's a bit like watching your favourite comedy film. You start laughing before the funny bits because you know what's coming.

I totally agree with tillson for once. When someone 'buys' a bike under C2W scheme, he is only hiring it, the bike belongs to his employer until such a time the employer decides to sell him the bike.

Think about what your employer will do if they found out you got them to buy a BS10.

I love all this - really! It's great entertainment. I don't know how many times we've been through it before. Nothing's changed. It's a bit like watching your favourite comedy film. You start laughing before the funny bits because you know what's coming.

 

totally agreed, but I'd suggest it does need saying though...doesnt it, even if its every time. Because it only takes one extra person to stumble across this discussion and it'll be someone who will now know the situation, and won't be sold an illegal bike without knowing the potential problems and damage they are doing to the image of eBikes and industry as a whole.

 

Col

Good points, but don't forget that your bike was illegal when you bought it, and, technically, still is. Where does one draw the line?

Draw the line......EN15194....now I'll

I love all this - really! It's great entertainment. I don't know how many times we've been through it before. Nothing's changed. It's a bit like watching your favourite comedy film. You start laughing before the funny bits because you know what's coming.

 

Dell Boy just fell over the bar counter!!!!

It should be remembered in these discussions about e-bike legality that it is entirely legal for any person or company to sell e-bikes that don't conform to UK law, EU law or any other law.

 

Offences are only committed by usage in public places, what anyone does in genuinely private circumstances is largely a matter for themselves.

 

One may have a view on the morality of sellers on the grounds that they encourage illegal use, but that is one area where the motor vehicle market is relevant. The motor industry and motor traders sell vehicles that can greatly exceed all known UK and EU speed limits, but very few people present a moral argument against their behaviour.

 

Therefore in the interests of consistency and fairness, we should accord that same leniency of view to those who sell e-bikes that can be used illegally.

Edited April 2, 201412 yr by flecc

That is true Flecc but you do not genrally have any issues getting insurance for cars or other motor vehicles. However I am not against selling them. Therefore people can speed in cars if they so choose but will still have insurance if they cause an accident however the same can not be said of speed pedelecs currently. Unless someone can prove insurance is obtainable?

 

Most people do not have private land where there is no public access. So I would say it is similar but not the same.

Flecc..you are normally fair and impartial in these matters. If one imported an S class bike into the UK,such as the BS10 is it a simple matter to register it as a moped?

I have memories of photos of such a machine on this forum that had been registered and it looked like a mongrel between a bike and a moped...is that a mocycle?

Also you would be arrested by the fashion police if you wore a full face helmet on a bicycle,sorry I meant mocycle.

KudosDave

A bit of exaggeration there Tim!

 

The sophisticated Giant Lafree lite (below) was here in 2001 years before you started up and the Yamaha PAS models in 1999, a long way before you appeared. Both were quality good performing pedelecs and hardly monsters. The Lafree weighed just 22 kilos fully equipped with mudguards, mudflaps, strong carrier, lights, propstand and wheel lock, a weight many manufacturers still struggle to get down to today for such a well equipped e-bike.

 

Both are still in regular use and the Lafree in particular remains a highly valued pedelec for numerous owners.

 

http://www.flecc.co.uk/m/lafree.jpg

Ah, my old LaFree, I'm going to well up in a minute:(

 

Actually, I did have 3 or 4 at one time, but this one was my favourite

Ah, my old LaFree, I'm going to well up in a minute:(

 

Actually, I did have 3 or 4 at one time, but this one was my favourite

 

Yes, that's the Lite model, rode beautifully like a normal bike when with power switched off. No e-bike I've ever ridden since matched it in that respect.

Ah,the ol' Lafree, I remember them were the good ol' days. Didn't you have to have a little man with a red flag walking in front!!!!!

Bout time I retired disgracefully !!!

KudosDave