Customer: Can I kill someone with these knives you're selling?

 

Shopkeeper: Yes quite easily, but it is illegal.

 

Customer: Thanks. I'll take three.

 

Exactly crE, a case where the sale of items that can very rarely be legally carried in public is not illegal in itself.

 

Knives have been used to commit countless murders, but no supplier has ever been pursued at law for the consequences of such use, even where the type of knife had no legitimate use.

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Can we please stop with the debate amoungst the same people about the same things. That wasnt my point in this thread.

 

I posted to ask anyone who sells these bikes or dongles to post if they do so blindly or with some legal backing.

 

The best i was hoping for was thay someone would have a statement along the lines of one I can see flecc posted a couple of years ago

 

Reasons: To have proof of warning the unaware attracted to such a model that they are illegal on the road. To show that the trader respects the law and does not wish it to be broken. To try to put off those who think of illegal use by making them think about the issues involved.

 

But it seems no one from the trade is saying anything yet on here. Will be interesting to see if it gets any replies.

 

I would love to see websites that say:

 

Using this will invalidate your warranty,

Or this bike can not be used legally on or offroad in the Uk.

here you go, on the woosh home page, two third down, in the frequently asked questions:

 

http://wooshbikes.co.uk

 

Can I derestrict your electric bikes?

 

No, it will void your warranty.

Also, if you derestrict your bike, you need to get it registered as an electric moped, attach a number plate, get a free tax disc, have it MOT'd, only ride it on roads (not cycle lanes or paths) and also wear a helmet.

If someone decides to report you for riding a derestricted bike on the roads without it being registered or without insurance and helmet, you will most likely lose your driving licence.

here you go, on the woosh home page, two third down, in the frequently asked questions:

 

http://wooshbikes.co.uk

 

50cycles likewise publish this restriction against the high speed models:

 

"TYPE APPROVAL CLASSIFICATION L1e light moped. To use this bicycle on a public road the user must first register it, fit a registration plate and then tax and insure it. Registration plate holder can be removed in those territories where these restrictions do not apply."

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https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/blog/post/how-to-derestrict-a-yamaha-ebike-speed-tuning-dongles/

 

3rd paragraph down.

I will have another nose at people's websites when I get back into work.

 

It is interesting to see what others have put in their small print. If we do decide to offer the unrestricted bikes to uk market it would not be in the small print.

 

https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/blog/post/how-to-derestrict-a-yamaha-ebike-speed-tuning-dongles/

 

3rd paragraph down.

 

 

It's statements like that, that concern us.

 

It's says:

 

Where can I use the Speed Tuning Kit?

Obviously the UK law states that eBikes should only be assisted to 15mph. Therefore the speed tuning kit is strictly for off road use only.

 

Which is not correct. They are just as illegal Offroad. Bridal ways and towpaths are actually likely to be sources of the biggest problems for eBikes .

 

Also there is no mention on there about the dongle invalidating your warranty.

This statement is technically not erroneous though:

 

"Obviously the UK law states that eBikes should only be assisted to 15mph. Therefore the speed tuning kit is strictly for off road use only."

 

Nowhere does it say off-road usage is legal, that is only an implication in the mind of the reader.

 

I understand your position though, I daresay you would prefer this wording:

 

"Obviously the UK law states that eBikes should only be assisted to 15mph. Therefore the speed tuning kit is strictly for off road use only in circumstances where such usage is legal."

 

Personally I think it best merely to state what the UK law is, and not make any statement about other possible usage, since that intrudes into very murky legal territory.

.

If we go back to the comparison with the mini motors, surely the dealer is only liable if they have made a statement to the effect that they are road legal.

 

There are a large number of items which one can sell that have legal restrictions as to where they are used, shotguns anyone, without the dealer being responsible for their illegal public use.

 

 

The question of warranty is totally separate and is a civil matter governed by contact law.

If we go back to the comparison with the mini motors, surely the dealer is only liable if they have made a statement to the effect that they are road legal.

 

There are a large number of items which one can sell that have legal restrictions as to where they are used, shotguns anyone, without the dealer being responsible for their illegal public use.

 

Absolutely, a retailer cannot make assumptions as to usage and proving any liability at court would at the very minimum entail proof that the retailer knew that the item would be used illegally.

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Absolutely, a retailer cannot make assumptions as to usage and proving any liability at court would at the very minimum entail proof that the retailer knew that the item would be used illegally.

.

 

We and any of the other brands selling these products... know they are going to be used illegally. I couldn't stand up in court and say, that I thought the bikes we sell are being used on private estates, because they aren't.

 

So i'm pretty confident we're not going to make the KTM s class bikes available in the UK. Don't think its worth the risk to us, our dealers, our customers or also the future sales of eBikes here, as I'm sure that the de restricted ones are going to be the cause of all the negative press that eBikes are going to get over the next couple of years as the're useage grows.

 

We and all the other brands are pushing the concept hard in the cycling and main stream media, and as such its not going to be a little niche anymore. People will know what they are, and we want to make sure that they are seen for what they are, pedelecs, and not electric motorbikes.

This statement is technically not erroneous though:

 

"Obviously the UK law states that eBikes should only be assisted to 15mph. Therefore the speed tuning kit is strictly for off road use only."

 

Nowhere does it say off-road usage is legal, that is only an implication in the mind of the reader.

 

I understand your position though, I daresay you would prefer this wording:

 

"Obviously the UK law states that eBikes should only be assisted to 15mph. Therefore the speed tuning kit is strictly for off road use only in circumstances where such usage is legal."

 

Personally I think it best merely to state what the UK law is, and not make any statement about other possible usage, since that intrudes into very murky legal territory.

.

 

sorry missed this post.

 

"Obviously the UK law states that eBikes should only be assisted to 15mph. Therefore the speed tuning kit is strictly for off road use only."

 

it should say.

 

"Obviously the UK law states that eBikes should only be assisted to 15mph. Therefore the speed tuning kit is strictly for private land use only."

 

offroad is just the same as onroad in the eyes of the law... so that needs changing in this example. you can use it on private roads and private land. So the split is the private bit, not the on or offroad bit.

That is your commercial decision, you were asking about the legal position, not the moral one.

ok, I've just had a re-read though things and I should probably point out we're not worried about prosecution, its the liability that concerns us. This seems to have been lost in the debate a bit.

 

My concern is that it'll be an insurance company that comes after us, claiming for damages because their client has been involved in an accident involving an eBike that they shouldn't legally have been allowed to be using on the roads. Or their client has been hit by said eBike, or involved in an accident caused by the eBike.

 

Say, a de restricted eBike causes a horse to bolt on a bridleway and the rider is injured and forced to take a few weeks off work. Their insurance company is going to go hunting for someone to blame. This is what I'm worried about, not prosecution.

 

Is that a bit clearer?

Don't KTM have lawyers they can ask for clarification? i don't understand why you worry so much about ypur competitors

 

It does come across as if you are using the 'dongle' or S class issue as an excuse to slate your competition? Not saying you are doing this but it gives that impression. Perhaps they are using a bit of entrepreneurial spirit to provide a market for dongles but so are people in Germany and on ebay etc. There seems to be a growth market for the S pedelecs here (am I right?) and I was wondering if KTMs uK strategy was being reconsidered because of this niche market and a fear of falling behind the competition?

We and any of the other brands selling these products... know they are going to be used illegally.

 

But this simply isn't true Col, you cannot be certain they are to be used illegally. We have a number of members who pop their e-bikes into their motor caravans or on the back of their cars and leave the country.

 

Just two examples of well known personalities in here, there are many others:

 

Lynda uses her caravan loaded with her e-bike in this way. I know she goes to her holiday home in Spain, but retailers cannot know that, especially if the transaction is online.

 

EddieO does similar, loading two e-bikes into his motor caravan for many holidays abroad, and as a German speaker is often in that country where S class e-bikes can be legally used at up to 45 kph and with 500 watt ratings. He's bought e-bikes here and in Germany. So once again neither you nor any other retailer can make an assumption regarding illegal use.

 

That there are such legal usages of UK illegal e-bikes destroys any chance of a successful liability action in court taken against a retailer.

 

P.S. This also forms a reply to your last post.

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Don't KTM have lawyers they can ask for clarification? i don't understand why you worry so much about ypur competitors

 

It does come across as if you are using the 'dongle' or S class issue as an excuse to slate your competition? Not saying you are doing this but it gives that impression. Perhaps they are using a bit of entrepreneurial spirit to provide a market for dongles but so are people in Germany and on ebay etc. There seems to be a growth market for the S pedelecs here (am I right?) and I was wondering if KTMs uK strategy was being reconsidered because of this niche market and a fear of falling behind the competition?

 

We do, and we've asked, and they've said don't sell them. Which is why I was asking on here, why others feel comfortable taking the risk.

 

Its my job to worry about everything, the law, the competition, everything. Its not that we're worried about selling volume of bikes, we're not. We sold out this year and I think we'll sell out next year. What I'm worried about is one bike sale causing my business to go bust, or one bike sale causing eBike sales in the UK to stop - both of which are very important possibilities to me.

 

Most of the people selling these bikes / dongles in the UK aren't our competition, they are our customers. 50cycles, and e-bikeshop.co.uk are two of the examples that people have quoted above, both of these are shops, could in theory be selling KTM, so they aren't competition.

 

I'm not attempting to slate the competion, I've simply asked 2 very serious questions that I was hoping for some clarification on.

 

For instance there are dealers selling dongles to KTM customers, without telling them its invalidating their warranties. This is a problem for everyone concerned.

But this simply isn't true Col, you cannot be certain they are to be used illegally. We have a number of members who pop their e-bikes into their motor caravans or on the back of their cars and leave the country.

 

Just two examples of well known personalities in here, there are many others:

 

Lynda uses her caravan loaded with her e-bike in this way. I know she goes to her holiday home in Spain, but retailers cannot know that, especially if the transaction is online.

 

EddieO does similar, loading two e-bikes into his motor caravan for many holidays abroad, and as a German speaker is often in that country where S class e-bikes can be legally used at up to 45 kph and with 500 watt ratings. He's bought e-bikes here and in Germany. So once again neither you nor any other retailer can make an assumption regarding illegal use.

 

That there are such legal usages of UK illegal e-bikes destroys any chance of a successful liability action in court taken against a retailer.

 

P.S. This also forms a reply to your last post.

.

 

all true, but it doesn't change the risk of liability should one of these people be involved in an accident whilst using their bike in the UK. Or are you seriously tell me that these people don't ride their bikes in the UK?

 

Also, if they are taking their bikes to ride abroad, they should be registered them over there, otherwise they are also breaking the law in Germany.

As long as you yourself and your business are not telling people how to derestrict for road use I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Just because they say it invalidates their warranty doesn't automatically make it so.

 

It would depend on the reason for the claim, broken frame for example? If you took the company to the small claims court for not honouring their warranty the court would make a decision as to whether the companies limitation of warranty was valid for the nature of the claim being made.

 

As you well know a company cannot use its warranty conditions to overrule the sale of goods act.

 

 

I seem to remember in days gone by one could buy, and maybe still can, kits to deristrict mopeds etc, I don't think anyone was ever prosecuted for selling them ~ they certainly had no off-road use.

 

I get the feeling we are just going round in circles and this thread has run its course.

Edited August 31, 201411 yr by the_killjoy

sorry missed this post.

 

"Obviously the UK law states that eBikes should only be assisted to 15mph. Therefore the speed tuning kit is strictly for off road use only."

 

it should say.

 

"Obviously the UK law states that eBikes should only be assisted to 15mph. Therefore the speed tuning kit is strictly for private land use only."

 

Your amendment is still incomplete though Col. It should read:

 

"Obviously the UK law states that eBikes should only be assisted to 15mph. Therefore the speed tuning kit is strictly for use on anyone's private land only."

 

The point being that e-bike law does not apply on any private land, the only offence being the almost impossible one to prosecute of trespass. All a landowner can do is ask someone to desist and leave their land. They cannot take legal action for a first offence, and if taking it after a second occurrence by the same offender, they most prove that, and also that they also had adequate warning against trespass through signage etc.

 

That's why trespass actions are virtually unknown in the courts and why there is such a high incidence of vehicular trespass, the offenders knowing that they are almost immune.

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all true, but it doesn't change the risk of liability should one of these people be involved in an accident whilst using their bike in the UK. Or are you seriously tell me that these people don't ride their bikes in the UK?

 

Also, if they are taking their bikes to ride abroad, they should be registered them over there, otherwise they are also breaking the law in Germany.

 

But you cannot be proven to know of any of this illegal usage Col, that is the point. Without that proof of your cognition and since the sale is entirely legal, no successful action is possible.

 

Such precedents as mini-motos, knives and shotguns with no liability issues have been mentioned and there are many more. And here's one appertaining to bicycles where the retailers are breaking the law and yet have still never been prosecuted for any liability:

 

Retailers selling bicycles by law have to supply a bell at point of sale*. It does not have to remain fitted but must be offered fitted on the bike. The great majority of retailers completely ignore that law, and we can be sure that those bicycles with no bell offered have been involved in pedestrian injury accidents and even very occasional deaths. Yet no retailer has ever been pursued at law for liability, even though the lack of an audible warning may well have contributed to or even caused the accident.

 

If those cycle retailers actually breaking the law are never sued in these potentially liable circumstances, you can be very sure that those acting entirely legally won't be.

 

* Pedal Cycles (Safety) Regulations 2003

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Edited August 31, 201411 yr by flecc

What happens when the KTM is out of warranty? - Surely it shouldn't be a problem that the owner should be able to make any modifications they want to make. inc. performance enhancements.

 

I know the German TUV system for motorbikes can be officious about owners fitting aftermarket mods and only specially approved and type marked items can be fitted. Is this what KTM wants to follow?

This isn't us, it's Bosch. We are just one of the brands who use Bosch drives.

 

If anything Bosch fails its Bosch who handle the warranty.

There's a massive market for derestricted bikes in the Uk. Nearly everybody (but mainly men) that I speak to wants to know how to do it. Hopefully, there will be so many on the road, that somebody will allow them just like they did with 250w bikes, which are also illegal. It wouldn't surprise me if the powers that would be are well aware of what's going on, and they're monitoring the situation. It would be difficult to make a temporary trial, so this way they get all the data without putting their necks on the line. As long as there's no adverse affects, I'm sure they'll some way allow them officially in the future. Maybe we need to get more on the road to strengthen the case.

But are Bosch concerned about motors being derestricted once the warranty period expires?

Of concern should be the parts supply chain for common component parts as you know (over two months for a rim) esp. for a still in production bike - anyway that's another topic.