@[mention=10362]warrah[/mention]. You built this bike in 2012. If you were to build another one for the same purpose (30mph, 30m range), would you use the same components?

 

This bike is being offered for sale at the moment, a would be buyer would compare and contrast its features against a new built or ready made before making an offer. From that angle, one could see that this bike, sold as is, has lost much of its appeal except it's road legal. RobF's comment seems harsh but not without reason.

 

 

I figured what would i do differently if building again (first question), and 'the bike compares poorly to a new build/ready made' (second statement) are related so i can address them both at once.

 

The battery on the bike is a 60v 20ah LiFePo4 battery. The new ones i have built use LiNiMnCo chemistry, which has a higher power density. That said, in the 3 years since LiFePo4 was the best choice for me, LiNiMnCo has not taken its place in the market; its price, dollar for amp hour, is still much higher.

 

I'd use a more purpose built high-power ebike frame, as these have started to appear last year. There was only one in 2012, the greyborg, so all this choice is like a dream come true.

 

Everything else hasnt dated in the slightest. I wish it had and we were talking about a thrusting young industry making leaps and bounds, and in 2015 motors were using superconductive magnets and other sci fi stuff. The Cycle analyst is still the standard for the display. Infineon controllers do what they do well and havent undergone any game changing transformations. Guess i might try a sine wave controller one day? they make the motor completely silent, which sounds fun. But its all about the battery really, thats what needs to make leaps and bounds in the LEV world in order for progress to happen.

 

I would caution anyone about assuming 30mile range/30mph has been surpassed by inevitable progress in off the shelf ebikes. The laws governing what legal ebike manufacterers can claim in their numbers for range and speed are not tight enough, and as im sure most people will already be aware, this allows them to quote the max speed (16mph) that the bike can do right next to the max range it can do (IF TRAVELLING AT LOWER SPEEDS, the part they dont mention), which obviously creates a very profitable misunderstanding for them. The way to cut through all this BS is to use a simulator like this one http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html, that uses the basic facts of physics to tell you what range you will get for a given speed, battery capacity, etc. What you'll notice is that the combo of parts on my bike can do 30mile range at 30mph, but if you decrease the throttle to 50% and take the speed down to 16mph, then it can do 65mile range. So unlike unscrupulous ebike manufacters who would say '30mph, 65mile range', ive quoted the max speed it can do next to the corresponding range that max speed will get you, but you can get a whole lot more if you baby the bike while there are no cars around.

 

 

Please ignore the childish insults of the few.

And remain to help the positive side of this forum.

My 2d worth is what about wind resistance.

The HPV crowd are clear that +90% of energy is lost in wind resistance.

cd Coefficent of Drag is the standard measurement tool for this parameter.

I would expect Your bike to have a Cd of 1 to 1.2

Basic tuck and fairing could improve that to 0.8

Going to a recumbent would bring the Cd into the sub 0.5 range

Fairings improve the Cd potentially down to 0.2.

and a full velomobile could get the drag beneath 0.12.

 

What would you expect from the above?

Well at best a ten fold reduction in wind resistance, leaving it at a similar level to rolling resistance. Almost like riding a perminant tail wind?

 

Some figures for a 1kw drive suggest the following speed ranges.

Normal bike 30

Recumbent 45

Faired. 50

Velomobile 70+

Therefore you could almost double the speed and range of an electric bike by going Bent!

 

Yup! This is such a good/important point. When in 2013 i found that same data you quoted on the benefits of faring, and low drag, i instantly wanted to MSVA (motorcycle single vehicle approval) a recumbant! and it was heartbreaking, because numerous criterea in the MSVA manual state the minimum height of lights, etc. Its quite high, and would have resulted in me needing to mount the lights on little stalks in order to meet the requirements, which would have looked... unusual. Im thinking all the time about all the ways i could do it though, because honestly, appearance mean much less to me then efficiency. When you think about these minimum height rules, they make total sense... if road vehicles were too low to the ground, they would be difficult for trucks etc to see. Our civilizations history with petrol vehicles means we never needed to care about maximum efficiency and squeezing every possible mile of range, and so this average safe height rule is set by petrol vehicles, even though, if *all* vehicles were to decrease their height together, there wouldnt be this issue of some not being able to see others, and they would all save petrol through increased efficiency!

Edited January 28, 201511 yr by warrah

Your experience is invaluable, thank you for answering my questions. I am looking forward to your next build.

My previous comment should be taken in the context of a prospective buyer. 'What do I get for my money?' - of course, it's a legal bike, but there are also other aspects to consider: esthetics, weight, power consumption, noise, remaining life expectancy etc. Another inevitable question will be 'should I buy this bike or build another one and follow the same route to MSVA?'

Edited January 28, 201511 yr by trex

this average safe height rule is set by petrol vehicles, even though, if *all* vehicles were to decrease their height together, there wouldnt be this issue of some not being able to see others, and they would all save petrol through increased efficiency!

 

Indeed, and to make things worse, low cars which were previously designed with pride in their having a low CD factor have increasingly been replaced with much higher cars due to consumer preference for coping with other high traffic.

 

The problem is trucks of course, making them much lower within the restrictions of existing roads would so greatly affect their payload that there would be a serious economic effect.

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Indeed, and to make things worse, low cars which were previously designed with pride in their having a low CD factor have increasingly been replaced with much higher cars due to consumer preference for coping with other high traffic.

 

The problem is trucks of course, making them much lower within the restrictions of existing roads would so greatly affect their payload that there would be a serious economic effect.

.

 

Good point, trucks have to have that height. Im picturing in my head though a truck with a lower front cabiny part but unaltered rear cargo part, so that, in this fictional world of all velomobile/recumbents, they are able to see all the other road users. Is there a reason they have to be so high up that relates to the high cargo they have behind them?

Good point, trucks have to have that height. Im picturing in my head though a truck with a lower front cabiny part but unaltered rear cargo part, so that, in this fictional world of all velomobile/recumbents, they are able to see all the other road users. Is there a reason they have to be so high up that relates to the high cargo they have behind them?

 

Answer from a one time truck mechanic. The height is due to a fair extent to the engine being within the cab structure and under the driver, this in turn being desirable on restrictive roads to retain the maximum length for cargo. They are described as forward control cabs. In any case the cab height is often increased by a deflector to improve the airflow over the cargo body.

 

In countries where space is not at a premium like the USA and Australia, large trucks often have engine bonnets forward of the driver, making the vehicle longer. Perversely though, those cabs are often high.

 

The best solution for a low forward area is for the cab to sit low and forward of wheels and any mechanicals, and some municipal vehicles and coaches are like that. Apart from the loss of cargo length, the snag for trucks using that solution is the lack of front ground clearance on undulating ground, so unsuitable for trucks entering construction sites or other rough land.

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Edited January 28, 201511 yr by flecc

Your experience is invaluable, thank you for answering my questions. I am looking forward to your next build.

My previous comment should be taken in the context of a prospective buyer. 'What do I get for my money?' - of course, it's a legal bike, but there are also other aspects to consider: esthetics, weight, power consumption, noise, remaining life expectancy etc. Another inevitable question will be 'should I buy this bike or build another one and follow the same route to MSVA?'

 

Its a worthwhile point to make. The bike im selling does sit in an uncomfortable place in the market, where a buyer needs to know how these kinds of DIY ebikes work, in order to fix any faults that might arise through normal road use wear and tear (i stated in the advert that its unlikely car garages will know how to fix an ebike). But if they have that knowledge already, then why not just make one themselves? Im looking for a very rare kind of buyer, one whos had the drive to acquire all this knowledge, and yet doesnt have the time to go through the process of modifying an ebike to pass the MSVA.

 

Also, being 3 years old, its battery isnt new anymore. Given all these issues, i can see myself having to steadily reduce the price until its a bargain for someone.

 

EDIT. im pretty confident such a person exists though. The MSVA is a long, tedious, and unforgiving process to grope your way through first time, and buying an ebike that already has the MSVA will save someone alot of time. That they can then use doing what they love, making ebikes.

Edited January 28, 201511 yr by warrah

Love the bike, love the concept. Really love that you have got the government to sign off your bike as approved so there is no doubt of its legal status. - It's not for me however. I went Ebike specifically because I had to surrender my driving licence on medical grounds so I could never buy that even if I wanted to, nor could anyone else in my position.

Love the bike, love the concept. Really love that you have got the government to sign off your bike as approved so there is no doubt of its legal status. - It's not for me however. I went Ebike specifically because I had to surrender my driving licence on medical grounds so I could never buy that even if I wanted to, nor could anyone else in my position.

 

even provisional license? ive been riding around on these high powered ebikes with just a CBT for years

even provisional license? ive been riding around on these high powered ebikes with just a CBT for years

 

From the DfT on using a provisional licence for all motorcycle and moped types:

 

"You must take and pass the theory and motorcycle tests in 2 years."

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From the DfT on using a provisional licence for all motorcycle and moped types:

 

"You must take and pass the theory and motorcycle tests in 2 years."

.

 

to drive a motorcycle above 125cc. You need a CBT first, then pass theory and motorcycle test, and then you can drive a motorcycle above 125cc. If you have no intention of doing this and are happy to ride less then 125cc, you can just keep renewing your CBT.

Warrah.

Can I say,

Welcome to this Forum.

We need you.

The number of members who actually know what they are talking about is very small indeed.

Like all families, there will the rough with the smooth, pay no attention.

to drive a motorcycle above 125cc. You need a CBT first, then pass theory and motorcycle test, and then you can drive a motorcycle above 125cc. If you have no intention of doing this and are happy to ride less then 125cc, you can just keep renewing your CBT.

 

Thanks Warrah, their website link that I accessed didn't make this clear, just making the bald statement I copied and pasted.

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May be the easiest and lightest route if not the safest would be to just convert the lightest moped you can get hold of ~ pre-war winged wheel (?) and then update the brakes etc later

 

All you've done is change the engine

May be the easiest and lightest route if not the safest would be to just convert the lightest moped you can get hold of ~ pre-war winged wheel (?) and then update the brakes etc later

 

All you've done is change the engine

 

 

It would be possible to use a pre or post World War 2 Autocycle like the 1946 James one below. The BSA Winged Wheel was a 1950s bicycle attachment motor, also shown below, and not a vehicle to convert:

 

 

http://www.autocycles.co.uk/autocycles/photos/561p.jpg

Go for something more worthless like a 1960s Philip Panda, probably the most gutless bike I ever had. Mind you an easier bike may be a Honda P50

 

All those old mopeds have gone up in value as collectible items. Most of the cheaper ones need a lot of work, then re-registration and MOT. I was thinking of converting one a while ago, but it seemed too much hassle and cost.

Wouldn't any good mountain bike or a steel framed touring bike be suitable?

 

Were only talking about 30mph here and these bikes are strongly built to withstand a lot of stress.

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If using a hardtail, a fair sized box can be fabricated to fit the frame triangle for a battery, like Dave has done previously on his twin motored bike.

Wouldn't any good mountain bike or a steel framed touring bike be suitable?

The point is, trying to find an already registered frame to build up instead of going through the arduous task of registering a bicycle build as Warrah has done.

Oops! missed that completely

 

Thanks for putting me right!

No problem:)

 

Does anyone know of the insurance and test implications of buying a petrol scooter/motorbike and changing it to electric?

I don't think you can. The original frame would have been registered using the certificate of conformity issued by the petrol bike manufacturer.

If you modify the bike, you invalidate the CoC, you'd be riding an illegal bike.

warrah's approach is the best and cheapest way unless you import a Chinese bike with EU issued CoC.

No problem:)

 

Does anyone know of the insurance and test implications of buying a petrol scooter/motorbike and changing it to electric?

 

Best check the yougov website. My first guess is that what you would be doing would be like putting a different engine in a car or bike so no need for further testing. But having said that I think they have tightened up the laws there and you might need to take it to a testing station to have it looked over.

 

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles

I don't think you can. The original frame would have been registered using the certificate of conformity issued by the petrol bike manufacturer.

If you modify the bike, you invalidate the CoC, you'd be riding an illegal bike.

warrah's approach is the best and cheapest way unless you import a Chinese bike with EU issued CoC.

that triggered a slightly polyana train of thought (apologies if this is a complete tangent) - g-wiz's (going-green) are very very cheap at the moment (around £1000), moreso when running on defunct lead batteries, the spec of which is 48V 200 Ah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REVAi how difficult could it possibly be to shoehorn 20 16000mAh 6S lipos froom hobbyking (44V, 160Ah, £1600) in and have a light as good as new electric vehicle?

JC posted a very valid point, the engine counts only for 1 point in this list

 

DVLA uses a points system to decide what registration number to give a radically altered vehicle.

 

Keep the original registration number

Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame.

 

Part Points

Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer) 5

Suspension (front and back) - original 2

Axles (both) - original 2

Transmission - original 2

Steering assembly - original 2

Engine - original 1

 

It follows that the process of replacing the motor of a petrol moped may be worth looking into.

I still think there may be a problem Trex. The original is in class liable for VED while the resulting e-vehicle isn't.

 

Only re-registering could sort that.

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