Gentlefolk. Stick to this Topic. We're way off the subject now and being of little use to Terry.

I have met Terry, he is an intelligent adult and quite capable of sifting through the froth.

 

So far it seems that other than Rob and Kiwi's comments an independent comparison is not forthcoming, so should we just let this thread wither and die?

If we do keep posting the thread won't get buried and there is always a chance that someone, remote as that may seem, will offer a comprehensive review of the two bikes that Terry mentioned at the start of this thread.

I have met Terry, he is an intelligent adult and quite capable of sifting through the froth.

 

So far it seems that other than Rob and Kiwi's comments an independent comparison is not forthcoming, so should we just let this thread wither and die?

If we do keep posting the thread won't get buried and there is always a chance that someone, remote as that may seem, will offer a comprehensive review of the two bikes that Terry mentioned at the start of this thread.

Well said.

I agree, the post has gone way off topic. A few of us even trying desperately to sell bikes that are not mentioned?

 

This was a direct request for a comparison between two bikes. Hence the discussion on centre motors vs hub motors, throttles etc. All relevant stuff surely.

 

All the best David

David (Amps)...please give us the name of the contact at the DfT so that all disabled persons can write into him to tell him the stupidity of linking throttles to type approval,without a mechanism to achieve type approval.

My experience is government employees hate personal publicity,they prefer to be mandarins in the background protecting their gold plated pensions.

Contact name please?

KudosDave

 

Hi Dave if you or anyone else would like to email me the name and email addresses of anyone interested I will happily put together a letter.

 

All the best David

Hi Dave if you or anyone else would like to email me the name and email addresses of anyone interested I will happily put together a letter.

 

All the best David

 

No David....we need to know the name of the guy who is responsible for developing the regs such that throttles are linked to type approval and no mechanism has been provided to achieve that type approval.

You can have many meetings in private which appear to achieve nothing,but 100 disabled people writing into this guy,with press involvement will be very effective. Writing with emotion and explaining that this decision has taken away their independence to ride bicycles will achieve so much more.

The government have just updated a paper specifically to support disabled people in their quest for more independence,this decision to delete these throttles is in direct opposition to that paper and directly in contrast to Camerons big society.

Names please who attended the last meeting on this subject?

This subject has been kept too much behind closed doors we need to lobby those involved to get some action to resolve this issue.

You know that once I get my teeth into an issue I wont leave it alone.

KudosDave

Ok ,to return to the OP.

The Keram is very similar to any number of other Bosch powered bikes,it has the same specification to justify the around £2k price. The choice between these seems to come down to minor spec,style or even clour choice.

The Wisper is a compltely different bike,with its hub drive. David does not give a full spec so its difficult to determine...but assuming hydraulic brakes,BPM type of motor and good secondary parts £1499 seems about right.

The bikes will ride completely different,the Keram will have a smooth even placid ride,all these Bosch bikes are much the same. Assuming the aforementioned BPM hub motor,the Wisper will have more hillclimbing grunt especially above 6 mph

Being so different,you will like one and reject the other,its all down to a test ride,its whatever type you like.

Is that back on topic.

KudosDave

Ok ,to return to the OP.

The Keram is very similar to any number of other Bosch powered bikes,it has the same specification to justify the around £2k price. The choice between these seems to come down to minor spec,style or even clour choice.

The Wisper is a compltely different bike,with its hub drive. David does not give a full spec so its difficult to determine...but assuming hydraulic brakes,BPM type of motor and good secondary parts £1499 seems about right.

The bikes will ride completely different,the Keram will have a smooth even placid ride,all these Bosch bikes are much the same. Assuming the aforementioned BPM hub motor,the Wisper will have more hillclimbing grunt especially above 6 mph

Being so different,you will like one and reject the other,its all down to a test ride,its whatever type you like.

Is that back on topic.

KudosDave

 

Dave,

You can see the full specification of the Wisper if you click on the drop down menus for each component on this page https://amps.bike/product/wisper-905-torque/

If that is the bike Terry decides on I would recommend opting for the higher capacity battery although that does bump the price up to £1699.

 

David,

 

If Terry does buy the Wisper don't forget the usual commission;)

 

Just a reminder, the Heinzmann is £200 cheaper:)

Ok ,to return to the OP.

The Keram is very similar to any number of other Bosch powered bikes,it has the same specification to justify the around £2k price. The choice between these seems to come down to minor spec,style or even clour choice.

The Wisper is a compltely different bike,with its hub drive. David does not give a full spec so its difficult to determine...but assuming hydraulic brakes,BPM type of motor and good secondary parts £1499 seems about right.

The bikes will ride completely different,the Keram will have a smooth even placid ride,all these Bosch bikes are much the same. Assuming the aforementioned BPM hub motor,the Wisper will have more hillclimbing grunt especially above 6 mph

Being so different,you will like one and reject the other,its all down to a test ride,its whatever type you like.

Is that back on topic.

KudosDave

 

Thanks Dave,

 

I'll need to change my website! If you click on the various headings under specifications you will find a detailed description of all the components. If you can't find them, no one will!

 

The bike has decent hydraulic brakes, a good cassette, rather than a freewheel, good suspension form Sunrace with pretension and lock out. £1,499 is tight!

 

All the best, David

No David....we need to know the name of the guy who is responsible for developing the regs such that throttles are linked to type approval and no mechanism has been provided to achieve that type approval.

You can have many meetings in private which appear to achieve nothing,but 100 disabled people writing into this guy,with press involvement will be very effective. Writing with emotion and explaining that this decision has taken away their independence to ride bicycles will achieve so much more.

The government have just updated a paper specifically to support disabled people in their quest for more independence,this decision to delete these throttles is in direct opposition to that paper and directly in contrast to Camerons big society.

Names please who attended the last meeting on this subject?

This subject has been kept too much behind closed doors we need to lobby those involved to get some action to resolve this issue.

You know that once I get my teeth into an issue I wont leave it alone.

KudosDave

 

Hi Dave, it was a closed meeting so I don't feel comfortable disclosing everyone's name. However several EBike producers were there along with the MCIA and some big retailers. I appreciate you don't enjoy associations and have had bad experience of them in the past, however we would welcome you as a member anytime, you could then be 100% in the picture. The same applies to anyone in the trade who would like to become a member. Flecc you, as discussed previously have an open invitation as a guest.

 

Best regards, David

it was a closed meeting so I don't feel comfortable disclosing everyone's name. However several EBike producers were there along with the MCIA and some big retailers.

 

Really! I can't for the life of me think why this can't be in the public domain unless BEBA is the name of a masonic lodge.

 

Tom

BEBA is the name of a masonic lodge

Ha! It's open for all in the industry to join, now as the Bicycle Association of GB with specialist groups such as the E-Bike Group (mainly ex-BEBA). Nothing sinister about it.

I'm sure the appropriate person will divulge all when there's something clear to say.

Now, does anyone know how to untie a trouser leg... or should I start another Thread?

I haven't got a clue what BEBA past and present have achieved for the community. Isn't it one of those acronyms like the guild of master double-glazers or some thing such, that companies pay £100 per annum for their own marketing purpose.

David (Amps).....sorry about my misunderstanding about your website,but maybe it's operation is not obvious....I get talked into new ideas by IT guys that are not always practical but need hindsight to reveal the effect.

My wish to avoid membership of BEBA was borne out by the end result...anyway I don't approve of closed meetings,these decisions affect us all so democratically the discussions should be visible to all.....I would have revealed all,maybe you wouldn't have wanted that?

Anyway,the current situation appears the worst possible outcome.

I think it would have been better to take EN15194 and only allowed 4 mph throttles...I am currently specifying 2 new bikes(500 units),both would have been ideal with 15 mph throttles especially for disabled riders.

Surely if the DfT linked full speed throttles with type approval then they should have given us a grace period to achieve this type approval before releasing the regs,we really need 12 months to determine whether type approval is practical on these pedelecs.

But,we are 3 weeks away from the 1st January deadline and VOSA have no classification to type approve a Pedelec....in fact all the communications I have had with VOSA suggests that they have no intention of testing Pedelecs.....my local VOSA test centre wants to test one under L1e,as a moped.

Surely it would be better to put this deadline back 12 months to give the DfT chance to organise themselves properly ,develop an applicable VOSA classification and write the regs sensibly.....has anyone questioned whether they know what they are doing? Do they understand pedelecs? Do they understand the industry.?

I am very tempted to put full speed throttles on these new bikes and sell them for 'private land use only',it doesn't seem to have limited the market for S-class,dongles and Trading Standards seem not to care.

Please give us the contact of the government dept that is dealing with this matter...that surely is part of the public domain.

KudosDave

Ha! It's open for all in the industry to join, now as the Bicycle Association of GB with specialist groups such as the E-Bike Group (mainly ex-BEBA). Nothing sinister about it.

I'm sure the appropriate person will divulge all when there's something clear to say.

Now, does anyone know how to untie a trouser leg... or should I start another Thread?

 

Bob....I think we have answered Terry's enquiry and this discussion seems to be working just fine here.

Do I read into your posting that despite all the meetings with the DfT there's currently nothing to say? We are 3 weeks away from the deadline date when full speed throttles are to be banned and the 'appropriate person' doesn't seem to have anything to say.

We should have been working on type approving,over the last 12 months,so as to prepare for this deadline date....but there is not a classification at VOSA to apply to.

We are going to end up with the same situation of legality like S-class and dongles....there will be some suppliers who will sell illegals with full speed throttles.

Has nobody asked at these meetings how we get type approval?

If you wonder why I am concerned I have 500 units in build at the moment and am at the decision point of 4 mph or 15 mph throttles?

KudosDave

Bob....I think we have answered Terry's enquiry and this discussion seems to be working just fine here.

Do I read into your posting that despite all the meetings with the DfT there's currently nothing to say? We are 3 weeks away from the deadline date when full speed throttles are to be banned and the 'appropriate person' doesn't seem to have anything to say.

We should have been working on type approving,over the last 12 months,so as to prepare for this deadline date....but there is not a classification at VOSA to apply to.

We are going to end up with the same situation of legality like S-class and dongles....there will be some suppliers who will sell illegals with full speed throttles.

Has nobody asked at these meetings how we get type approval?

If you wonder why I am concerned I have 500 units in build at the moment and am at the decision point of 4 mph or 15 mph throttles?

KudosDave

Your argument is with Government David. I sympathise and hope you can realise we are all in the same boat and on the same side.

 

BEBA and the BA and the MCIA have all been lobbying through the appropriate government channels, attending meetings with the DfT, writing to MPs, collecting opinions, demonstrating ebikes to the House of Lords and working very hard, putting in many, many hours of coordinated work over several years.

 

BEBA lobbied hard FOR full speed throttles and eventually won over the attitude of the BA, who were at first opposed, but are now on-side. The MCIA are also now around the table, working with the BA to present one unified voice, continuing to lobby and cajole right up to the wire.

 

The MCIA has actually been very helpful in identifying the easiest route to getting type approval for the UK's closest equivalent to S-Class, that being a £50 inspection at your local Vehicle Testing centre, as I understand (I'm not the expert there and have no interest).

 

Since the beginning of 2015 we have also been showing how there needs to be a type approval criteria and process in place and asking for the government to respond.

 

Woosh and Kudos have always been welcome to join the fight from within and BEBA has never been exclusive or elusive.

Let's hope we can keep a unified and cohesive response, directed towards the appropriate government channels rather than one and other.

There is a better thread to continue this topic... here.

I simply don't think I am free to disclose every name there. If you feel comfortable Bob then I will leave that to you. It's not a secret.

 

All the best, David

I haven't got a clue what BEBA past and present have achieved for the community. Isn't it one of those acronyms like the guild of master double-glazers or some thing such, that companies pay £100 per annum for their own marketing purpose.

 

Absolutely not Trex, we have been working for clarity for all and again have been sharing what we know with the community. I wish it were £100pa!

 

Regards David

Me neither. I'd sooner wait, patiently, through gritted teeth, for the DfT's response.

Dave (Kudos) I am out with our new sales guys at the moment, are you around for a chat later? All the best, David

Well, unless Terry is deeply interested in the politics of the UK electric bike industry he will be fast asleep by now:rolleyes: I note that his OP was his only one in this thread.

If the trade wish to communicate directly with one another, there is always the telephone or email.

I think it's great to read in public forum the leaders of the industry talking this over. To some of us it's of great personal interest. I wish Hatti would join in too! I think you should all specify full throttles. You can always leave them unplugged but I believe it is the government's intention to allow them.

Edited December 8, 201510 yr by hoppy

I think it's great to read in public forum the leaders of the industry talking this pver. To some of us it's of great personal interest. I wish Hatti would join in too! I think you should all specify full throttles. You can always leave them unplugged but I believe it is the government's intention to allow lleyes: I note tha

 

Hoppy.....don't worry,this subject is more relevant to the trade than the user...I have no doubt that throttles will be supplied for 'private land use only'.....note 'off road use' is so last year!

I find it amazing that there are so many cyclists who are happy to ride their 28 mph S-class dongled twist and go throttled bike around their private farmyard !!!!!!!

KudosDave

Older people need the throttle because of when the knees malfunction or the rheumatism plays up. Tendonitis etc. Cycling a lot wears out certain bits. Essential inclusion. It might make the difference from buying an ebike or not! Important for me for future proofing.

 

Shed for bikes is being built. Ergonomic grips add-on to straight handlbars are being thought about. If my knees worked properly I would not need an ebike for going up hills.

Edited December 9, 201510 yr by Perseus

I wonder what bike Terry chose? I wonder where he went?? Perhaps after all these off topic posts he gave up the will to live!!

 

Terryyyyyyyyyyy. Where are you?? What did you choose?? And why??

I have met Terry, he is an intelligent adult and quite capable of sifting through the froth.

 

And what froth ! - I love this forum - it ticks all the boxes and reminds me of the joke about how many Forum members does it take to change a lightbulb !

 

You've all just entertained my lunch break. I'll post something more considered (responding to a couple of individual points) later but in a nutshell, the choice was based on availability at a retailer I have found who has been very helpful.

 

John - I'm not buying until the New Year, if I can find time to pop in and try a Heinzmann I will (as you were so helpful in my initial search) - but it's still got too many gears for my liking ! (that should give you lot another few pages of posts in response)

 

Thanks again all