I posted here about a year ago when I first considered a Pedelec. SInce then, my ropey Kawasaki managed another years MOT so the buying decision was delayed.

 

I have been researching extensively since then and have ridden a number of different bikes to help narrow my choice.

 

I'm down to two - both of which I have ridden and like. The first is the Bosch powered Orbea Keram Comfort, the second is the Wisper 905 Torque described as "a real Bosch alternative". The £300 price differential (5765Wh Wisper) is a factor but not an over-riding one if the Orbea is clearly £300 "better"

 

Any thoughts on the relative merits from the wise and experienced people here ?

 

http://www.orbea.com/gb-en/ebikes/keram-comfort/

 

https://amps.bike/product/wisper-905-torque/

 

 

TIA

 

Terry

No hurry Terry, take your time before parting with your hard earned;)

 

BTW, for that kind of money you can get one of these http://cyclezee.com/pan-etr-hybrid-bikes.html

Battery position on the Keram + 28" wheels + frame lock + sexier looks (eye of beholder) would be my choice.

The Orbea looks expensive for what it is - more than £2K for basic bike bits, an active motor and the smaller battery.

 

Have a look for KTM and Cube bikes.

 

You could get better bike bits, the 500wh battery and the Performance motor for the same, or less.

One of the nicest features of the Bosch is the torque sensor, giving a more natural response from the pedals.

 

But the Wisper also provides this same sensation by using a torque sensing BB and a rear hub motor.

 

So with the Wisper the difficulties with a centre drive transmission train are eliminated.

 

I'd go with the Wisper, for now, until we show a similar arrangement in the spring.

The Heinzmann that I eluded to earlier has a bottom bracket torque sensor, tried and tested bullet proof totally silent motor, plus 555w downtube battery, two year warranty, choice of frame sizes etc. for less money than any of the bikes mentioned so far.

The Heinzmann that I eluded to earlier has a bottom bracket torque sensor, tried and tested bullet proof totally silent motor, plus 555w downtube battery, two year warranty, choice of frame sizes etc. for less money than any of the bikes mentioned so far.

Yep. The system of torque sensing BB and rear hub drive has a lot of advantage in my view.

My Kudos Rapide...BPM hi-torq motor,Tectra hydraulic brakes,30 speed Deore gears,anti aqua plane tyres,wind cheating battery,£1395.00

There will be an ex demo bike coming up soon,priced about £1000.00.

KudosDave

Anti aquaplaning tyres on a bike, wind cheating battery, sounds like a load of M.B.E.

Thanks for considering the new Wisper Terry.

 

Good luck with your search. If I can be of assistance please get in touch.

 

All the best, David

Anti aquaplaning tyres on a bike, wind cheating battery, sounds like a load of M.B.E.

 

MR sheldon brown. RIP ( bookmark http://sheldonbrown.com/ him if you haven't already) says hydroplaning doesn't happen on bikes as we are too slow. Think circa 70 mph. If the wind cheating battery lets you do that then I want one!

Ps would you do 70 in the wet or save it for dry days?

Edited December 5, 201510 yr by D8ve

Let's not get off topic. The OP asked specifically about two bikes.

I wonder how Terry narrowed his choice down to 2 bikes from the 524 listed here? http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/buy/find-an-electric-bike-for-sale/

I wonder how Terry narrowed his choice down to 2 bikes from the 524 listed here? http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/buy/find-an-electric-bike-for-sale/

 

He said he researched and test rode bikes for a year!

I wonder how Terry narrowed his choice down to 2 bikes from the 524 listed here? http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/buy/find-an-electric-bike-for-sale/

Well, that's not for us to know. But we'd surely just complicate his choice unless we stick to the differences between those two bikes, contributing what we think about their comparative features.

Edited December 5, 201510 yr by JuicyBike

Let's not get off topic. The OP asked specifically about two bikes.

This comes over like a gagging order.

I'm sure that I am not the only one to wonder what it was about those two bikes that put them above the host of others available and hope that Terry might enlighten us.

I wondered as well. More than likely the local availability of the products and the availability of first class local support would have had a lot to do with it. If you then narrow the price band to £1,500 to £2,000 and demand torque control, the choice of bikes decreases quite dramatically?

 

All the best David

This comes over like a gagging order.

I'm sure that I am not the only one to wonder what it was about those two bikes that put them above the host of others available and hope that Terry might enlighten us.

Ha! No - not anything other than my observation. Your post was about a bike with a Torque sensor. Absolutely almost completely on topic!

So with the Wisper the difficulties with a centre drive transmission train are eliminated.

 

What difficulties?

 

 

 

Terry, unless your choice is based upon location of purchase, and as has already indicated to, I'd broaden your selection.

 

.

What difficulties?

None that can't be overcome by some careful design choices (gears, gear selection and chain), but there is a cost implication. The OP asks about the extra cost of the Bosch system.

Difficulties?

 

We supply Wisper and Bosch powered Riese and Muller bikes to the trade in the uk, so have no particular axe to grind.

 

The problem with centre drive motors apart from the noise when riding is the damage caused to the drive train. All that extra power gives premature chain stretch, premature wear on the sprockets and problems with Shimano hub gears on motors apart from the weaker powered models. Active in the case of Bosch.

 

On the other hand centre motors are great in that they have torque sensors rather than cadence sensors and are better for very steep hill climbing.

 

With more and more sophisticated hub systems coming onto the market the gap between the two systems is narrowing. It really is about personal preference.

 

All the best David

Running both systems I'm not buying into this.

 

I also asked Juicy to respond, as posting a sweeping comment/generalisation without expanding upon with reason, is completely pointless and meaningless to the thread, and is of no help to the OP.

 

The noise of the Bosch mid drive system is not even worthy of note when comparing, and certainly not when comparing either my past or present hub drive systems.

 

Premature chain wear and sprocket wear is significantly down to rider use and maintenance/ care of the system. Indeed from my experience, chain wear is just the same. Replacement cost is hardly going to break the bank.

 

As you and Juicy appear to be quick to dismiss comments by others, the Op's choice of mid drive does not have hub gears, so the comment about hub gears is completely irrelevant to the two choices, and to use the words of Juicy, "stay on topic"

 

To sum up, the one and only gripe that you can come up when dismissing crank/mid drive versus hub drive in the case of the OP's choice, is chain wear and noise. Both of which can easily be dismissed.

 

When comparing the two bikes, you should also mention the negatives of hub drive, such as the inconvenience and added hassle of rear wheel removal, for puncture repair, and weekly/routine maintenance.

 

As said Terry, widen your selection.

Edited December 5, 201510 yr by EddiePJ

Hi Eddie,

 

Great to see you are so passionate about electric bikes!

 

I have absolutely no gripe with Bosch mid drive systems, we sell hundreds of Bosch bikes. I love them! Just trying to give an unbiased view on the real differences between mid drive and hub drive.

 

There is absolutely no problem with wheel removal on modern hub drive bikes and probably less maintenance than Bosch, especially when considering chain and sprocket wear.

 

I am absolutely on Topic, discussing the differences between Bosch and hub drive. We sell and maintain both so we really do know what we are talking about.

 

Re the motor noise, the Wisper is significantly quieter than the Bosch system. Again a very important point when making the choice, don't you agree?

 

All the best

 

David

Terry should definitely try both bikes and if possible, broaden his selection (though after a year searching he may not want to). The £300 difference is a chunk of money, but if he values sensitivity of pedaling as the main factor, then I'd say there is little difference in the two bikes.

 

I think Eddie's experience is extremely valid and a useful perspective.

 

I have a preference for removing complexity in any system. For me, I'd go for the simplest solution to a goal - in this case I've assumed the goal is a natural pedal experience. Both bikes achieve that, one is more expensive.

If you were to ask Joe Bloggs to remove and refit a rear wheel using both drive systems, the mid drive is always going to be easier and less hassle. You don't need to be carrying and using an 18mm spanner for one thing, let alone confusing or daunting non mechanically minded owners with having to pull and refit connecting blocks. I have trouble with neither, but I know which I'd rather be changing in the dark on a rainy commute.

I would add, that being sensible, practice runs would be advisable to new owners of either system. It doesn't take much to be proficient at both.

 

In relation to chain wear, and from over time reading many comments just on this forum alone, many are getting very favourable mileage out of their mid drive systems. I have found no difference, and as said, the cost isn't exactly going to break the bank.

 

Noise wise, perhaps I have been lucky in that when I ride the Bosch powered bike, I can hardly hear it, and certainly when pedalling along side others when letting them try it, I can't hear it at all. I haven't tried a Wisper, so can't comment on that, but when compared with my past and previous hub drive, there probably isn't any difference, and I actually notice the hub drive noise far more.

 

What I should have added to my post above, but neglected to, was that if Terry is just choosing between the two bikes indicated, the Wisper would be my choice. This being based upon cost difference, and active support of supplier on the forum. The latter can count for a lot.

Edited December 5, 201510 yr by EddiePJ