When I started Kudos,some 5 years ago,Bosch absolutely refused to supply motors to be fitted into Asian assembled bikes. They did that to protect the pricing structure of German assembled bikes.

The Chinese have tried during that time to produce crank drive motors with varying success,some of the motors were cheap but crude in operation,the crank system has to have some method of winding the power down on gear change to avoid gear change,under load,problems.

The latest Bafang crank drive system seems the equal to the Bosch,so is the Yamaha,so they now have some competition.

In the meantime the Chinese developed hub drive to the point that it matched many of the features of crank drive and avoided the complications of gear changes under load,the latest Bafang BPM motors have such a wide torque spread especially at low speed.

I think Bosch has done a wonderful marketing job,especially in the critical German market and the German bike assemblers have a vested interest in protecting the Bosch product to maintain their higher pricing structure.

Ironically,in the UK,we are late to the Pedelecs party and much more flexible in our approach to buying choice,Bosch still has a strong presence but customers will consider alternatives hence the success of hub drive in the UK.

I have looked at the Bafang crank system but the rrp would have to be close to German prices and we have an attitude in the UK that German build must be the best and prepared to pay a premium for it.

So hub drive does what most people in the UK want from their e-bike and at a price level most are prepared to pay.

Having just read Eddies post above I do agree about difficulties on changing a tube,but on any e-bike it is not easy due to the weight of the bike,one of those easy change tubes and a simple pump should be essential spares on a pedelec.

KudosDave

Edited December 5, 201510 yr by Kudoscycles

Hub or mid drive.... which is best ?... Only one way to find out..

 

http://i1.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/incoming/article9196658.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/harry-hill-fight-ap-wdc5.jpg

I agree that 'crank drives eat chains' is not borne out by experience.

 

Just to complicate matters, I believe my Rose doesn't wear the chain partly because it has hub gears - the chain line is always perfect and there's no scraping across a cassette to change gears.

 

If there is a difference in wear rate, it's not big enough to be worth considering as part of the buying decision.

 

Always assuming you are comparing quality with quality with quality.

 

Eddie's two bikes are a good example - a quality crank drive and a quality rear hub drive.

 

I would be happy to ride either.

Yamdude, they are just different.

 

Everyone's a winner.

I tried the link to the Wisper 905 but the spec is not visible....unlike David he is normally very precise in his descriptions....what is the hub motor used in the Wisper?

One wonders what would be the situation if Bosch had produced a hub drive and put their marketing and r&d behind hub drive,would crank drive have ever been considered?

KudosDave

Edited December 5, 201510 yr by Kudoscycles

That would make for a very interesting and separate topic. Not a which is better, but a history of and development of topic. From I'm guessing home brew starter motor powered bikes using lead acid car batteries, to what we have now and what the future might hold.

Edited December 5, 201510 yr by EddiePJ

Off topic for a moment....

 

Absolutely right Eddie, ten years ago when I started Wisper, the choice of motors and more importantly controllers was nothing compared to today. Most importantly though, I would not have had a clue what the difference was between the systems anyway!

 

The motor we use on our latest bikes is built for export only by probably the biggest producer of motors in China. We were attracted to it by the size, weight and hi torque. What we have done, and what makes the new Wispers a little different, is to concentrate on how the motor is run by the controller software.

 

Using a sine wave controller goes a long way to reduce noise, however the algorithm we have developed along side our partners in China is the real break through. It cleverly splices information from the three sensors in the system to give a very smooth and quiet ride. Very much like the Bosch system but IMO better.

 

I know I get carried away in these discussions and apologise for doing so. I really do try not to get involved and am normally happy just to "lurk" in the background. I am simply very passionate about what I do for a living. So please excuse me!!

 

I would be very happy to expand in a separate thread on the history and development of Wisper, the ups and the downs, there have been a few of those!

 

All the best, David

Edited December 5, 201510 yr by Wisper Bikes

Don't I get a medal for being the only one who replied to the OP's question without wandering off subject? I mean it isn't like I ever wander off subject...

No throttle?

As a first bike, most people would prefer the throttle to torque sensor.

No throttle?

As a first bike, most people would prefer the throttle to torque sensor.

 

How do you arrive at that Trex? I disagree for this reason; cyclists don't have throttles on their push-bikes so when they first try out EAPCs, they expect them to behave much as their push-bike but with less effort required to pedal, particularly the difficult bits.

 

Gentle pedalling is enhanced a little, so no great effort is required to produce forward motion. When you add in the fact that increasing pedal effort brings about the same reaction as it does on a push-bike, surely that is what would be expected?

 

The introduction of a throttle is alien to the concept of cycling and is something borrowed from the realm of motorcycling. Why, then, would cyclists prefer a throttle? They didn't have one on any push-bike so just stopped for a breather if they got tired.

 

Perhaps everybody is in such a hurry today that stopping for a few minutes on a bike would cause something catastrophic to happen in their world? Given that the average age of EAPC users is closer to 95 than 15, I doubt very much if a few minutes here or there would make much difference.

 

Only those EAPCs equipped with a torque sensor successfully replicate the physical requirement of cycling.

 

Tom

How do you arrive at that Trex?

 

I have shown dozens of people how to ride an electric bike. A lot of people attracted to e-bikes are not proficient cyclists, they find easy and re-assuring to be able to ride an e-bike like a scooter to start with, then later on, as a pedelec. My guess is they will find their legs getting stronger over time and will not bother with the throttle anymore.

How do you arrive at that Trex? I disagree for this reason; cyclists don't have throttles on their push-bikes so when they first try out EAPCs, they expect them to behave much as their push-bike but with less effort required to pedal, particularly the difficult bits.

 

Gentle pedalling is enhanced a little, so no great effort is required to produce forward motion. When you add in the fact that increasing pedal effort brings about the same reaction as it does on a push-bike, surely that is what would be expected?

 

The introduction of a throttle is alien to the concept of cycling and is something borrowed from the realm of motorcycling. Why, then, would cyclists prefer a throttle? They didn't have one on any push-bike so just stopped for a breather if they got tired.

 

Perhaps everybody is in such a hurry today that stopping for a few minutes on a bike would cause something catastrophic to happen in their world? Given that the average age of EAPC users is closer to 95 than 15, I doubt very much if a few minutes here or there would make much difference.

 

Only those EAPCs equipped with a torque sensor successfully replicate the physical requirement of cycling.

 

Tom

 

You are still in denial. You ride an ebike. All ebikes have throttles.

 

Your throttle is foot operated.

As neither of the bikes mentioned in the OP have throttles how they are used is just a distraction. They are soon to be outlawed in the UK anyway from Jan 2016, as far as "bicycles" are concerned, much to my frustration.

... They are soon to be outlawed in the UK anyway from Jan 2016, as far as "bicycles" are concerned, much to my frustration.

 

talk of 'outlawed' without qualification is misleading.

The throttle will not be outlawed as such.

In view of the popularity of the throttle, some manufacturers will apply for type approval or reprogram the controller.

The Woosh Gallego for example has the full throttle enabled only if the PAS signal is received more or less continuously.

talk of 'outlawed' without qualification is misleading.

The throttle will not be outlawed as such.

In view of the popularity of the throttle, some manufacturers will apply for type approval or reprogram the controller.

The Woosh Gallego for example has the full throttle enabled only if the PAS signal is received more or less continuously.

Mmmmm. Might be a good subject for a New Topic....

Mmmmm. Might be a good subject for a New Topic....

 

Bob...you may have missed my recent thread....has any supplier found a way of type approving e-bikes so as to retain full speed throttles...there was much discussion but nobody seems to have a method of type approving in the UK.

My feeling is that most of us will supply with set off throttles,up to 4 mph,and 15 mph throttles are legally finished. Not that legals seem to mean much to many e-bike sellers,with the police and trading standards pretty much turning a blind eye to dongles and S-class bikes,which are prevalent on the roads,especially around London....I suspect there will be an equal number of suppliers who will just ignore the law and continue to supply 15 mph throttles.

KudosDave

talk of 'outlawed' without qualification is misleading.

The throttle will not be outlawed as such.

In view of the popularity of the throttle, some manufacturers will apply for type approval or reprogram the controller.

The Woosh Gallego for example has the full throttle enabled only if the PAS signal is received more or less continuously.

 

Tree,do you know a way of type approving an e-bike in the UK?

KudosDave

Currently there is no way Dave, although we are expecting clarification from DfT soon (ish)!

 

At a recent meeting of the Bicycle Association EBike group, after carefully reviewing current legislation, members have decided on a joint way forward. On some members' bikes throttles will be available as a boost start up to 4mph and then to 15.5mph whilst the pedals are being rotated forwards.

 

All the best, David

The use of a throttle on a EAPC is not compulsory. The fitting of a throttle simply makes cycling more inclusive.

Currently there is no way Dave, although we are expecting clarification from DfT soon (ish)!

 

At a recent meeting of the Bicycle Association EBike group, after carefully reviewing current legislation, members have decided on a joint way forward. On some members' bikes throttles will be available as a boost start up to 4mph and then to 15.5mph whilst the pedals are being rotated forwards.

 

All the best, David

That's not quite how I interpreted the document we discussed David and perhaps it's wise to wait for their final version.

Currently there seems to be only one type approval criteria - that for L1e. But we're way off topic discussing that here. I wouldn't want to hazard an interpretation ahead of their final decision, however sure I am of what's going to be allowed to be sold.

I just hope retailers aren't holding too much stock...

Currently there is no way Dave, although we are expecting clarification from DfT soon (ish)!

 

At a recent meeting of the Bicycle Association EBike group, after carefully reviewing current legislation, members have decided on a joint way forward. On some members' bikes throttles will be available as a boost start up to 4mph and then to 15.5mph whilst the pedals are being rotated forwards.

 

All the best, David

 

David....the operation of thumb throttles or twist and go up to 15mph whilst turning the pedals seems the norm on virtually every e-bike,certainly all the Chinese ones.

One of my employees spotted it by accident,hitting the throttle when pedalling. But this seemed of minor value,it gave you max power irrespective of the PAS setting,but you could achieve the same by increasing the PAS to max-not exactly an onerous operation.

The best use of the throttle is if disabled and unable to continuously pedal or going round a roundabout,sort of coasting,then spot a gap using the throttle to go for it.

I once loaded my little folder like a refugee,from the supermarket I bought too much ..... the stuff for a carload and suddenly remembered I had the bike.....the load would not allow turning of the pedals but using the throttle I happily made it home.

Most of the time the throttle is redundant but it has its moments,essential for a disabled person I suspect.....aren't our government supposed to help the disabled to get out?

Did not BEBA point out that the government by linking throttles and type approval without a method of getting type approval was stupid? Also that they would by creating such uncertainty do a lot of damage to the small UK e-bike industry?

With your involvement in the German e-bike industry how is it that the Germans seem to get type approval relatively easily...unfortunately they don't seem to have much interest in throttles.

KudosDave

Terry....the ex test bike Kudos Rapide is now on e-bay auction,that particular bike is almost new.....we didn't do many shows this year and at most did not offer test rides.

KudosDave

David (Amps)...please give us the name of the contact at the DfT so that all disabled persons can write into him to tell him the stupidity of linking throttles to type approval,without a mechanism to achieve type approval.

My experience is government employees hate personal publicity,they prefer to be mandarins in the background protecting their gold plated pensions.

Contact name please?

KudosDave

The pension is gold plated, but now mostly lead underneath.

It's pay into and receive pension based on the payments.

The full final salary thing was cut years ago.

Oh and the good pension was supposed to offset lower wage.

They have retained the lower wage part for public servants but perhaps not for elected officials.

Gentlefolk. Stick to this Topic. We're way off the subject now and being of little use to Terry.