Looks like you're starting to get it, Flud, but there's one more point you need to understand. Most hub-motors in ebikes that you'll see on our roads have internal gearing. Different motors have different internal gearing, which affects the wheel-speed at which the motor can produce high torque and efficiency. Some motors have 5:1, some 8:1, and now we're starting to see higher ratios.

 

Also, the motor can be wound for different speeds. For a bike with a limited speed of 15 mph, it's typical for the motor to be wound for a maximum speed of around 20 to 22mph so that it makes high power at maximum efficiency in the area of 15 mph. If you want a good hill-climber, you could wind it for a maximum speed of 15 mph, which shifts the whole power and efficiency curves down the rpm axis in direct proportion. Take a typical Bafang 250w SWX motor that's commonly found in ebikes. You can get it in 180, 201, 230, 250, 270, 320 rpm versions, so 180 rpm if you need hill-climbing, 320 rpm if you want speed. The advantage of the crank-drive is that it can do both with the same motor, not that it's better than a hub-motor at either end of the scale.

 

While I'm on the subject, I opened up one of the recent small Bafang front motors yesterday to find that it now has two-stage gearing inside like the Q100, so it looks like they've increased the reduction ratio from 5:1 to about 8:1. It has helical gears on the motor output shaft and straight-cut ones to the hub.

 

 

Seems you may well have convinced me, but not everybody sees it that way ???

People have been spreading these myths for years. They're only showing their ignorance. If they qualified their statements, we might get nearer the truth, like, "out of the bikes that you find in an average ebike shop, the crank drives will probably climb btter than the hub-motors "

https://proaddicts.com/es/video?video=209

O

People have been spreading these myths for years. They're only showing their ignorance. If they qualified their statements, we might get nearer the truth, like, "out of the bikes that you find in an average ebike shop, the crank drives will probably climb btter than the hub-motors "

 

I,m just glad I found the sole enlightened forum dedicated to legal pedelecs. ( bet my smilie doesn't show)

 

Another unenlightened journo...

just all over place...

Edited April 18, 201610 yr by (NoLongerRegistered#15675)

O

 

I,m just glad I found the sole enlightened forum dedicated to legal pedelecs. ( bet my smilie doesn't show)[ATTACH=full]13678[/ATTACH]

 

Another unenlightened journo...

just all over place...

I think that linking to information, or at the very least including a source, might help when putting forward an argument. Anyone can write anything on the Internet, so random unqualified screenshots aren't going to do you any favours.

I,m not asking for favours. I,m pointing out there is a vast amount of " information" and "evidence" contradicting the concepts generally held on here..

 

Both " screenshots" taken from highly regarded sources.( and different)

 

I,ll post sources, thought it was on heading.

( ebike " an introduction" )

You know full well the views expressed are quite common, and quoted in most other sources.

Criticising my finding / posting/ not quoting source does not change the common held belief expressed in the quotes.

Edited April 18, 201610 yr by (NoLongerRegistered#15675)

What I find absolutely astonishing is that I come on here in good faith,in that I,m neither promoting or selling anything, insult no one,put nobody down , accept and post that yes hub drives have their place and obviously suit many happy riders but offer practical help to OP ( loan of my bike), offer to meet up at similar hill to try and objectively work out issues bloke is facing and along way dare to suggest for reasons outlined that perhaps he,d be better suited with a CD unit . Only criticism I have offered has been to Amp bikes and supplying shop for not helping..Result..I,m trolling, I,m ignorant. I don't listen. I don't understand. Shut up. Offer of races to prove superiority of hub and not a word from anyone...

Then I mis spell some posters name, yes deliberately and some body is all hurt.

This place is insular. It needs new members.

I,ll stop posting.

OP good luck.

Don't stop posting it's always good to hear different points of view from informed people.. Plus I think most of us on the forum enjoy the exchanges it adds spice to what would otherwise be maybe a little mundane for most readers. Don't take things personally stay with us and fight your corner.

I,m not asking for favours. I,m pointing out there is a vast amount of " information" and "evidence" contradicting the concepts generally held on here..

 

Both " screenshots" taken from highly regarded sources.( and different)

 

I,ll post sources, thought it was on heading.

( ebike " an introduction" )

You know full well the views expressed are quite common, and quoted in most other sources.

Criticising my finding / posting/ not quoting source does not change the common held belief expressed in the quotes.

 

The 'concepts' are not generally held on here.

 

A couple of the big beasts on the forum make a lot of noise, as such folk do.

 

But much of what they post is cobblers, and certainly not generally agreed with.

 

Your general point is a good one.

 

A quality crank drive is a good real world solution for those who want to be legal, do decent length rides, and not have to carry kilos and kilos of spare batteries.

flud, if you compare the two bikes, your Haibike against the Wisper 905SE torque, then most of what you said is applicable. But if you generalize your comments, then they are not.

Flud, I'm pretty sure that my last post doesn't read as if I am criticising or attacking you in any way, yet your reply reads (to me at least) in an extremely defensive tone. I was only trying to put across the fact that qualified evidence from a verified source holds much more weight and will only help your side of the discussion.

Hi Flud, May I assume you have actually ridden a Wisper Torque? You talk with such authority.

 

If not maybe you should consider holding back a little. Discussing a bike you know nothing about does t really make sense? What do you think?

 

It reminds me a little of the Blue Stone of Galveston.

• Percy: My Lord, you know they do say that the Infanta's eyes are more beautiful than the famous stone of Galveston.
  
• Edmund: Hm... what?
  
• Percy: The famous stone of Galveston, my Lord.
  
• Edmund: And... what's that exactly?
  
• Percy: Well, it's a famous blue stone. And it comes... * points with a look of far off wonder* from Galveston.
  
• Edmund: And... what about it?
  
• Percy: Well, my Lord, the Infanta's eyes are bluer than it, for a start.
  
• Edmund: I see. And have you ever seen this stone?
  
• Percy: *starts to nod head* ... Y... No... not as such, my Lord. But I know a couple of people who have, and they say that it's very, very blue indeed.
  

As I have explained, we are also the National Distributor for Riese & Muller, probably one of the finest ranges of Bosch powered bikes in the world. They are fantastic, but so are the Wisper Torques.

 

Both our brands have advantages and disadvantages, people that own Wisper Torque bikes love them, as do people who own R&M bikes.

 

The beauty of this industry is there are loads of choices and many bikes to fit all styles of riding and all pockets.

 

All the best,

 

David

What happened to ......

 

Posted by Flud...

 

This place is insular. It needs new members.

I,ll stop posting.

OP good luck.

Hi Flud,

 

Just a thought, not sure where you live, but if convenient, you would be most welcome to come to Kemsing and try some of our bikes. I would love to have the opportunity to show you what I am going on about. I'll even buy you some lunch!

 

All the best,

 

David

Hi All,

 

After the not so veiled mentions of miss-selling on this post, I was a little concerned about the OP. This morning I dropped him a line to ask if everything was OK.

 

Please see his reply. I am publishing, warts and all with his expressed permission...

 

Hi David

 

Great thanks. I've never cycled and enjoyed it so much.

Done 140miles in less than a week and that's with just leisurely cycle rides, no commuting.

 

Starting to get used to hill climbing now. I took your advice of 'mode 3 and apply a bit of throttle' which works great, but going easy on the throttle so as not to drain the battery. I'll revisit that steep Cromford Hill I mentioned in another post another day!

 

Had an initial problem with the front brake not working but was ok when I tested at the shop but didn't work that evening after it was exposed to a heavy downpour (although that shouldn't have affected it).

My local bike shop (c/o Juicy Bikes) soon sorted it and it's working fine now.

 

I thought i'd might get a bit more than 54 miles out of the battery having used the modes moderately, although it was the first charge after leaving the shop.

 

As mentioned before, a bit disappointed that the LCD display only shows the barest of information (speed and trip/odometer).

 

But, overall very impressed and pleased with it. a real joy to ride!

 

You can quote me on any of the above.

 

Cheers

 

K

David

I never mentioned Wisper Torque, which by the way I have ridden, unfortunately not on steep enough hills or over a,long enough time to give an objective review. I offered to meet up with OP at a severe climb near us both to compare bikes .(Offer still stands. Winnats Pass)

The thread quickly developed into a hub versus crank debate, which if you read comment a few posts back, it was a poster with apparently far more experience than myself stating in tho specific example my " general" assumption indeed applies.

I don't think it was helpful your posting opposing review to OP,s original post, but if he,s happy that's fine.

My point was, is, and always will be..." On a bike with restricted motor power ( ie 250w) the crank drive mtb will ,all other things being equal , be the better climber"( Yes ,I do realize this is not everyone's opinion but its mine)

Thanks for offer of lunch, next time I,m in Kent I will call in and take you up on your kind offer..

Looking forward to meeting you Flug, In am sure the debate will be lively and meaningful.

 

There have been a couple of posts within the thread intimating that maybe the OP was sold the wrong bike. I was concerned enough to write to him.

 

I posted his reply in response to these negative posts. Maybe I should have modified it by taking out the more critical notes?

 

Most importantly, we have a happy customer who feels comfortable and happy he has bought the right bike for the job.

 

All the best

 

David

David

I never mentioned Wisper Torque, which by the way I have ridden, unfortunately not on steep enough hills or over a,long enough time to give an objective review. I offered to meet up with OP at a severe climb near us both to compare bikes .(Offer still stands. Winnats Pass)

The thread quickly developed into a hub versus crank debate, which if you read comment a few posts back, it was a poster with apparently far more experience than myself stating in tho specific example my " general" assumption indeed applies.

I don't think it was helpful your posting opposing review to OP,s original post, but if he,s happy that's fine.

My point was, is, and always will be..." On a bike with restricted motor power ( ie 250w) the crank drive mtb will ,all other things being equal , be the better climber"( Yes ,I do realize this is not everyone's opinion but its mine)

Thanks for offer of lunch, next time I,m in Kent I will call in and take you up on your kind offer..

 

Unfortunately the term 250w is not accurately defined in legal type law here.

In pure engineering terms you are probably right. However the test applied is can a motor run at 250w continuous ( I.e. rated as 250 w)

Not an actual is the max power 250w.

Some ( lots of motors) can run at over 500watts for 10 mins. But the battery will die quickly.

Unfortunately the term 250w is not accurately defined in legal type law here.

In pure engineering terms you are probably right. However the test applied is can a motor run at 250w continuous ( I.e. rated as 250 w)

Not an actual is the max power 250w.

Some ( lots of motors) can run at over 500watts for 10 mins. But the battery will die quickly.

 

I see all that d8 but lets assume 2 scenarios.

A) hub and crank are fitted with identical "nominal" 250w motors/ cintrollers/ pedal sensors..

Owing ti the greater range of ratios available to the motor in the CD it must benefit at some place in its range of use...In this case I,d hazard a guess the cd would out climb the hub.

 

B) A nominal 250 w crank is tested against a nominal 250w hub. Yes chances are the 250w hub will be capable of drawing more current, it has to , to compete with crank when pulling higher motor ratio, so yes it may well compete in climbing but it loses out on endurance..

 

I know its repeating the point but just because hub motor is at an efficient point in its rev range does not mean another motor running lower ratio cant put more torque at back wheel ( with penalty of lower speed range)

 

A crank drive can be so low geared in its lower gears, wadinng through mud, running fatter tyres,going over obstacles would have far less effect .Yes 2 speed hub may well be in its ideal rev range, Irs almost arguing against use of a gearbox...Its not just there to put motor in ideal rev range,its there to ensure there is way more torque available than usually needed to cope with unexpected. ( rocks, ,mud, thick grass,water etc etc)

CD has choice of minimum 8..( mine has 20 of which bottom 10 hardly if ever used) Hub has at most ( at moment ) 2.

Yes, if you don't encounter stuff mentioned, always run 40 psi plys stick to tarmac etc etc then yes hub fine..

 

To my mind , yes the hub can compete , but its always at a disadvantage, to get around this disadvantage it needs to be capable of regularly drawing more current, then range suffers.

 

To argue the hub can compete throughout speed range and over any terrain ( from 2mph to 16) is to completely negate the point of having 10 ratios to choose from..

Its saying CD,s are pointless !

Looking forward to meeting you Flug, In am sure the debate will be lively and meaningful.

 

There have been a couple of posts within the thread intimating that maybe the OP was sold the wrong bike. I was concerned enough to write to him.

 

I posted his reply in response to these negative posts. Maybe I should have modified it by taking out the more critical notes?

 

Most importantly, we have a happy customer who feels comfortable and happy he has bought the right bike for the job.

 

All the best

 

David

 

Also I notice your Riese and Muller e mtb has Bosch crank drive.

Which one is best for climbing David.

The Wisper Hub or the Riese Muller ( Bosch ) Crank. ??"

 

In the blurb the Riese Muller mtb is aimed at serious moutain bikers going on challenging rides??

this is better if you can change the motor settings and dump power in to it it will fly up anything.

 

and they all moan about dongles:rolleyes:

I see all that d8 but lets assume 2 scenarios.

A) hub and crank are fitted with identical "nominal" 250w motors/ cintrollers/ pedal sensors..

Owing ti the greater range of ratios available to the motor in the CD it must benefit at some place in its range of use...In this case I,d hazard a guess the cd would out climb the hub.

 

B) A nominal 250 w crank is tested against a nominal 250w hub. Yes chances are the 250w hub will be capable of drawing more current, it has to , to compete with crank when pulling higher motor ratio, so yes it may well compete in climbing but it loses out on endurance..

 

I know its repeating the point but just because hub motor is at an efficient point in its rev range does not mean another motor running lower ratio cant put more torque at back wheel ( with penalty of lower speed range)

 

A crank drive can be so low geared in its lower gears, wadinng through mud, running fatter tyres,going over obstacles would have far less effect .Yes 2 speed hub may well be in its ideal rev range, Irs almost arguing against use of a gearbox...Its not just there to put motor in ideal rev range,its there to ensure there is way more torque available than usually needed to cope with unexpected. ( rocks, ,mud, thick grass,water etc etc)

CD has choice of minimum 8..( mine has 20 of which bottom 10 hardly if ever used) Hub has at most ( at moment ) 2.

Yes, if you don't encounter stuff mentioned, always run 40 psi plys stick to tarmac etc etc then yes hub fine..

 

To my mind , yes the hub can compete , but its always at a disadvantage, to get around this disadvantage it needs to be capable of regularly drawing more current, then range suffers.

 

To argue the hub can compete throughout speed range and over any terrain ( from 2mph to 16) is to completely negate the point of having 10 ratios to choose from..

Its saying CD,s are pointless !

 

There ianD8veh and D8ve, we are different.

I was agreeing that your points were technically correct. Unfortunately cost/ simplicity and current conditions lead to D8veh,s argument that hub is just as good in a UK legal bike. Me I prefer a quality CD motor. I get great range even from the 8Fun one. Hub motor setups have been lower range, but that has also been due to gearing and bike setup.

Both have there place. Elegant efficiency or simple practicality. Price or range.

To argue the hub can compete throughout speed range and over any terrain ( from 2mph to 16) is to completely negate the point of having 10 ratios to choose from..

 

This is where the CD excels, I just got back from a short 13km ride, bit over 300m climbing including a hill that an Ezee cannot climb unassisted where as my BBS01 did it effortlessly albeit at low speed, in low gear.

 

I would love to see efficiency of and unassisted CD against an unassisted Hub of the same power on real world roads, I am convinced unassisted in hilly areas a CD is more efficient IF gear correctly and kept in high rpm range plus obviously capable of higher speed and steeper climbing using the same unit.

 

For example I can drop 1.5 to 2w per km just by keeping the motor spinning freely as opposed to allowing the rpm to drop by staying in a higher gear, speed ends up very close to the same (unassisted).

 

I can put a small amount of assist in now but it is so little that I have disregarded it for the above.

 

After all that the average user that can add some reasonable assist will probably be happy with either and a hub often means simpler/easier/quieter shifting.

flud, you failed to see that the Wisper 905 Torque offers the customers more than a regular Bosch CD bike does. It has both torque sensor and rotational sensor, controllable at the push of a button. It reminds me of the old BH Neo that had a switch on the handlebars to switch between the two.

Also, for the majority of customers, hub drives are more intuitive than CDs, it's just bliss for some when they don't need to think of gears or indeed change gears.

Just watch the Gtech advert.

A) hub and crank are fitted with identical "nominal" 250w motors/ cintrollers/ pedal sensors..

I think this is the bit that's confusing you. Hub-motors are not identical to crank motors. If the motor was taken out of your bike and put in a hub, it would probably be useless. Take a good climbing hub-motor like the cheapo Bafang BPM. The actual motor inside is about three times the size of yours.

 

Rather than keep making theories, go and try some or do what I did: Get yourself a wattmeter and go and do some tests. After that, you'll be making a lot of new theories.

Also I notice your Riese and Muller e mtb has Bosch crank drive.

Which one is best for climbing David.

The Wisper Hub or the Riese Muller ( Bosch ) Crank. ??"

 

In the blurb the Riese Muller mtb is aimed at serious moutain bikers going on challenging rides??

 

When you consider all the pros and cons on a steep hill, I would say the Wisper is better for gear change (although the gear sets are not as higher quality of most supplied with the RM) whilst climbing and more powerful than the Bosch Active Line. It's about on a par with the standard Performance but the CX is possibly the best, in Sport and Turbo.

 

More importantly many of the Riese & Muller bikes are specifically designed for off road and, as you say, for more challenging rides. Hence many of them have full suspension and are amazing all mountain bikes. Don't confuse these with Wisper bikes that are more about commuting and leisure riding, they are not designed for down hill mountain biking!

 

But all that is missing the point.

 

The Wisper is:

 

Less expensive

Quieter

Smoother

More responsive

Better for every day use

More user friendly with torque and cadence sensor options and a throttle style assistance regulator for prefect assistance adjustment

More discrete

 

After corresponding with the OP I think he has chosen the right bike.

 

Please remember, I have the choice of both to ride to and from work and I normally take the Wisper.

 

Looking forward to seeing you soon.

 

All the best

 

David

Edited April 19, 201610 yr by Wisper Bikes