The remain people just dont seem to be able to accept that they lost.

 

No, what we don't and won't accept is a full departure from the EU with the immense damage that will do. And the reason we won't accept that is the tiny margin making that decision and the fact that so much of the leave vote was nothing more that the usual mid term protest vote against the government in power.

 

The least we expect now is a compromise solution like the Norway deal to most accurately reflect the nation's indecision. That will be worse than what we've got now, but that's the price of the foolishness of leaving.

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Don't you think that will change now events are unfolding with things no where near as bad as was threatened! Even osborn is saying London will thrive and still remain the hub of world banking.

No, what we don't and won't accept is a full departure from the EU with the immense damage that will do. And the reason we won't accept that is the tiny margin making that decision and the fact that so much of the leave vote was nothing more that the usual mid term protest vote against the government in power.

 

The least we expect now is a compromise solution like the Norway deal to most accurately reflect the nation's indecision. That will be worse than what we've got now, but that's the price of the foolishness of leaving.

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So why are the remain politicians saying the vote was so decisive it can't be ignored

Don't you think that will change now events are unfolding with things no where near as bad as was threatened! Even osborn is saying London will thrive and still remain the hub of world banking.

 

Not really. Certainly some of the threats were stupid, but that was just the usual electioneering, both sides being equally guilty of that.

 

London always thrives in relative terms, it's the rest of the country that tends to suffer most and need propping up with London earnings. But what has happened now is especially dangerous since 80% of our export earnings are in services and most of those in the EU. No-one outside of Norway has managed to get services access to the EU market, so if we lose that we really will be in trouble.

 

And it's the more extreme leavers who seem willing to risk that without a shred of evidence of any alternative source of viable business. They smugly assume that the EU needs to please us to keep their business with us, but that is ill-founded. The EU leaders have been sick of Britain and it's attitudes for a long time now as David Cameron found when he tried to get a renegotiation deal. We are going to find negotiations very tough indeed and there won't be anyone willing to do us favours.

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So why are the remain politicians saying the vote was so decisive it can't be ignored

 

The operative word there is "politician", of course they will say that to placate the leavers and get the upper hand. Just wait for the reality of the outcome.

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The operative word there is "politician", of course they will say that to placate the leavers and get the upper hand. Just wait for the reality of the outcome.

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I suspected all, along that it wont actually happen and at the end of the day it wont make much difference to me either way and I have always been amused, and I really mean amused, by the way positions conduct themselves. One case I remember was when Mrs Thatcher was being interviewed by a group of 10 year olds and one asked if there was a nuclear war did she have a bunker she could go to ..

her convoluted reply, to a small child was.. well certainly not to the point.

Interesting days ahead I think..

To be fair, the rules from the eu thing wasn't what decided me personally.. For me it was the uncontrolled immigration and the way the remains tried constantly to make it racist to have this view, which was then compounded by Cameron's warning that pensioners could loose £35000 a year after Brexit, and as my pension is only £5000 per year it showed me just how out of touch the rich really are..

As for checking the so called facts offered by both sides.. I wouldn't know where to start!

again about facts.. less than 25% of the under 25's actually voted to remain.. I dont know if that's true or not, I suppose its a bit like the net or gross figure we pay in the the pot.. The remain people just dont seem to be able to accept that they lost..

I wonder if loosing is a new thing for some!

And now immigration remains the same as before, with the Government admitting it can increase if they want it to, so what have gained?

You should have known better than to listen to anything the Tory Government says,and yet took it as a matter of faith that their non stop sniping at the EU for the last 30 years was all true? Really?

And now immigration remains the same as before, with the Government admitting it can increase if they want it to, so what have gained?

You should have known better than to listen to anything the Tory Government says,and yet took it as a matter of faith that their non stop sniping at the EU for the last 30 years was all true? Really?

Sorry but I just don't understand... we haven't left yet and as far as I know nothing has changed. Still open borders and as far as I can see its the rather upset remainers that keep saying that nothing has changed when clearly nothing has.. stating the obvious . So surely it will depend on how, if or when the new pm gets things started.

Sorry but I just don't understand... we haven't left yet and as far as I know nothing has changed. Still open borders and as far as I can see its the rather upset remainers that keep saying that nothing has changed when clearly nothing has.. stating the obvious . So surely it will depend on how, if or when the new pm gets things started.

You really, really must start listening to what the politicians are saying to you as that has changed radically, but you're not listening hasn't has it? so you are not aware of the changing situation.

And when you listen, try to understand what they actually mean.

For example the Goverment has stated

Immigration will not stop, and it will increase if they think it's desirable, is that clear enough?

We cannot control our borders without increasing the 3 coastal patrol boats to over 300

Despite the like of Brendan thinking they will only cross the channel by the shortest route as they are coming in through Hull and though some have been caught who knows how many got through?

And by replacing the charity volunteers currently managing coastwatch after Government reduced the numbers of coastguards, so checking the shipping is not very good due to that.

You are not going to see any headway made on reducing immigration as cost rules that out, and if the French decide to stop holding the migrants at Calais we will have thousands more at Dover.

I

Edited July 8, 20169 yr by oldgroaner

You really, really must start listening to what the politicians are saying to you as that has changed radically, but you're not listening hasn't has it? so you are not aware of the changing situation.

And when you listen, try to understand what they actually mean.

For example

Immigration will not stop, and it will increase if they think it's desirable, is that clear enough?

Exactly as you say.. if it's deemed desirable... you make the mistake of assuming we all want to stop imigration and send the foreigners home...

The idea as I see it is to stop the eu jobless coming here and claiming benefits... and before you say it.. it may not happen where you are but it does here..

Exactly as you say.. if it's deemed desirable... you make the mistake of assuming we all want to stop imigration and send the foreigners home...

The idea as I see it is to stop the eu jobless coming here and claiming benefits... and before you say it.. it may not happen where you are but it does here..

For EU citizens these are the rules

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/coming-from-abroad-and-claiming-benefits-the-habitual-residence-test/eea-nationals-and-the-habitual-residence-test/eea-nationals-claiming-benefits-as-a-jobseeker/

 

For non EU persons the rules are here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points-based_immigration_system_(United_Kingdom)

 

pleas read the information carefully and make sure you understand it.

 

All immigrants have very stringent rules applied conditional on not being a burden on the welfare system contrary to what you have been led to believe

For EU citizens these are the rules

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/coming-from-abroad-and-claiming-benefits-the-habitual-residence-test/eea-nationals-and-the-habitual-residence-test/eea-nationals-claiming-benefits-as-a-jobseeker/

 

For non EU persons the rules are here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points-based_immigration_system_(United_Kingdom)

 

pleas read the information carefully and make sure you understand it.

 

All immigrants have very stringent rules applied conditional on not being a burden on the welfare system contrary to what you have been led to believe

It's not what I have been led to believe, it's what I see with my own eyes..

I know of a woman working here who's mother couldn't afford to retire so she brought her over here and because of her age she was guaranteed £160 per week and was renting her home in wherever without having to declare it. The chap that walked through the tunnel is now on £700 per month benefits (Acording to what I read). I go to the post office every day and see people drawing hundreds of pounds out whist being unable to speak a word of english, some even need help with inputting their pin.

And no amount of intelectual bullying will change that.

Whilst on holiday in majorca we found an article written by a local girl now living in Scotland detailing how to easily beat the system and have a free holiday on benefits..

Eu migrants can claim child benefit for their kids back home..

Go self employed selling the big issue...

Should I go on?

Perhaps I should be called.. another oldgroaner ... lol

The idea as I see it is to stop the eu jobless coming here and claiming benefits... and before you say it.. it may not happen where you are but it does here..

 

Quite right Phill, everywhere, including in London, there are those coming in just for the benefits. They are mostly in small numbers though and only a fraction of those who come here to work.

 

Much of the problem is that our rules allow abuse. Take the case of the Romanian man who is nominally here claiming benefits for himself and child allowance for his three children in Romania. While getting benefits he also works intermittently for cash in the black economy, though in all other respects he keeps within the rules and knows them in every detail. For example he regularly goes back to Romania, at least once a month, but takes care to ensure he is here three days in every week to fit the rules and avoid threatening his benefits. We also house him of course.

 

He also brings in other Romanians who work for him here in the black economy, while no doubt taking a cut from what they earn.

 

And he is completely unabashed about any of this, just smiling broadly and saying the British are very generous people! Indeed, he was entirely happy to have all this filmed by the TV people.

 

You can see how it's largely our own UK slackness that allows this sort of abuse.

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Quite right Phill, everywhere, including in London, there are those coming in just for the benefits. They are mostly in small numbers though and only a fraction of those who come here to work.

 

Much of the problem is that our rules allow abuse. Take the case of the Romanian man who is nominally here claiming benefits for himself and child allowance for his three children in Romania. While getting benefits he also works intermittently for cash in the black economy, though in all other respects he keeps within the rules and knows them in every detail. For example he regularly goes back to Romania, at least once a month, but takes care to ensure he is here three days in every week to fit the rules and avoid threatening his benefits. We also house him of course.

 

He also brings in other Romanians who work for him here in the black economy, while no doubt taking a cut from what they earn.

 

And he is completely unabashed about any of this, just smiling broadly and saying the British are very generous people! Indeed, he was entirely happy to have all this filmed by the TV people.

 

You can see how it's largely our own UK slackness that allows this sort of abuse.

.

What rubs salt in this for me is my situation.

My wife and I have worked all our lives even when we had three kids. I worked days and she worked nights and weekends bur because our pay was really low we elected for her to pay the married woman's stamp (still paying but not as much as a full stamp). The end result of this was that at her retirement age of 60 she had earned a pension of 12 pence per week.

I have already said I expected the result and forecast it, when others doubted remember?

Because people have been deliberately misled into thinking the government didn't agree to all the legislation coming out of the EU, when in fact they did and only in 2% of the case argued against something and lost.

Everything else they agreed to. Hardly a case of being domineered by the EU was it?

Your voting decision wasn't so much stupid as inevitable considering the info you had, but then again, you didn't check whether it was true, did you?

 

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

Well then all the politicians of both parties should have been honest. I believe we have been lied to all along about the aims and purpose of the Eu .

And now immigration remains the same as before, with the Government admitting it can increase if they want it to, so what have gained?

You should have known better than to listen to anything the Tory Government says,and yet took it as a matter of faith that their non stop sniping at the EU for the last 30 years was all true? Really?

OG it's only been two weeks since the vote. No one expected anything to change immediately.

What rubs salt in this for me is my situation.

My wife and I have worked all our lives even when we had three kids. I worked days and she worked nights and weekends bur because our pay was really low we elected for her to pay the married woman's stamp (still paying but not as much as a full stamp). The end result of this was that at her retirement age of 60 she had earned a pension of 12 pence per week.

 

Yes it's very wrong and we really should be attending to that and such similar matters, instead of allowing the scale of abuse of the benefits system that exists, both by our own population and a minority of immigrants.

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Well then all the politicians of both parties should have been honest. I believe we have been lied to all along about the aims and purpose of the Eu .

 

That's undeniable. The biggest lies were those at the time of John Major signing us up to Maastricht and a future single country called Europe.

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That's undeniable. The biggest lies were those at the time of John Major signing us up to Maastricht and a future single country called Europe.

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Perhaps the driving force that makes one want to be prime minister includes "at any cost"

Perhaps the driving force that makes one want to be prime minister includes "at any cost"

 

It's impossible to run a country and satisfy more than a tiny proportion of it's people. The only reason anyone might want to do the impossible job of running a country is as an outlet for their desire for power.

 

Never take any notice of the would be MP who says they want to serve and help others, in truth they just want to control. And so certain are they of their rightness, they will indeed pursue their aim at any cost, just so long as that cost is anothers and not theirs.

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It's not what I have been led to believe, it's what I see with my own eyes..

I know of a woman working here who's mother couldn't afford to retire so she brought her over here and because of her age she was guaranteed £160 per week and was renting her home in wherever without having to declare it. The chap that walked through the tunnel is now on £700 per month benefits (Acording to what I read). I go to the post office every day and see people drawing hundreds of pounds out whist being unable to speak a word of english, some even need help with inputting their pin.

And no amount of intelectual bullying will change that.

Whilst on holiday in majorca we found an article written by a local girl now living in Scotland detailing how to easily beat the system and have a free holiday on benefits..

Eu migrants can claim child benefit for their kids back home..

Go self employed selling the big issue...

Should I go on?

Perhaps I should be called.. another oldgroaner ... lol

 

Lets examine your quite reasonable distress.

I'll assume you followed the links and saw that there are rules to prevent this abuse set down by our Government.

Are we agreed on that?

Now ask yourself who is to blame for this situation?

Is the EU responsible for overseeing who comes in? NO

Are there rules these people are supposed to comply with to prevent these abuses? YES

Who's responsibility is it to enforce the rules to prevent the abuse?

Come on now its's your turn to answer a simple question

If the Government has set out rules to prevent this abuse, why are you blaming the EU for them being broken?

No one doubts that they are being broken and so it is the responsibility of who to put that right?

The Government.

Tell me now why were you expecting people to come over from Brussels to sort out the mess out Government has lost control of?

And why do you imagine for a moment the Government now will suddenly change and become competent and even interested in exercising the control it should have been doing all along?

And if there are loopholes being exploited (and there are) who is responsible for closing them

I'll give you a starter; it isn't the EU so who else can it be?

What rubs salt in this for me is my situation.

My wife and I have worked all our lives even when we had three kids. I worked days and she worked nights and weekends bur because our pay was really low we elected for her to pay the married woman's stamp (still paying but not as much as a full stamp). The end result of this was that at her retirement age of 60 she had earned a pension of 12 pence per week.

I agree it's terrible, and who is to blame really? the Government of course!

Again you are making assumptions.. I dont blame the eu for anything ... Wright or wrong I just want out.

I don't mean to be rude but you are coming over like a teacher trying to explain something to a small child.

Again you are making assumptions.. I dont blame the eu for anything ... Wright or wrong I just want out.

I don't mean to be rude but you are coming over like a teacher trying to explain something to a small child.

It was not my intention to come over like a teacher, simply to provide you with some information.

 

Ok why do you want out? lets consider that.

Well then all the politicians of both parties should have been honest. I believe we have been lied to all along about the aims and purpose of the Eu .

Not so the intention was there for all to see before it even began

http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/founding-fathers/pdf/winston_churchill_en.pdf

"He formulated his conclusions drawn from the lessons of history in his famous ‘Speech to the academic youth’ held at the University of Zurich in 1946: “There is a remedy which ... would in a few years make all Europe ... free and ... happy. It is to re-create the European family, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe.”

"His aim was to eliminate the European ills of nationalism and war-mongering once and for all"

Where you unaware of this?

Edited July 8, 20169 yr by oldgroaner