June 17, 20178 yr Care to back that statement up? Links please! In the meantime you can run your eye down this long list of your leaders terrorist supporting activities Invited two IRA members to parliament two weeks after the Brighton bombing. Attended Bloody Sunday commemoration with bomber Brendan McKenna. Attended meeting with Provisional IRA member Raymond McCartney. Hosted IRA linked Mitchell McLaughlin in parliament. Spoke alongside IRA terrorist Martina Anderson. Attended Sinn Fein dinner with IRA bomber Gerry Kelly. Chaired Irish republican event with IRA bomber Brendan MacFarlane. Attended Bobby Sands commemoration honouring IRA terrorists. Stood in minute’s silence for IRA gunmen shot dead by the SAS. Refused to condemn the IRA in Sky News interview. Refused to condemn the IRA on Question Time. Refused to condemn IRA violence in BBC radio interview. Signed EDM after IRA Poppy massacre massacre blaming Britain for the deaths. Arrested while protesting in support of Brighton bomber’s co-defendants. Lobbied government to improve visiting conditions for IRA killers. Attended Irish republican event calling for armed conflict against Britain. Hired suspected IRA man Ronan Bennett as a parliamentary assistant. Hired another aide closely linked to several convicted IRA terrorists. Heavily involved with IRA sympathising newspaper London Labour Briefing. Put up £20,000 bail money for IRA terror suspect Roisin McAliskey. Didn’t support IRA ceasefire. Said Hamas and Hezbollah are his “friends“. Called for Hamas to be removed from terror banned list. Called Hamas “serious and hard-working“. Attended wreath-laying at grave of Munich massacre terrorist. Attended conference with Hamas and PFLP. Photographed smiling with Hezbollah flag. Attended rally with Hezbollah and Al-Muhajiroun. Repeatedly shared platforms with PFLP plane hijacker. Hired aide who praised Hamas’ “spirit of resistance“. Accepted £20,000 for state TV channel of terror-sponsoring Iranian regime. Opposed banning Britons from travelling to Syria to fight for ISIS. Defended rights of fighters returning from Syria. Said ISIS supporters should not be prosecuted. Compared fighters returning from Syria to Nelson Mandela. Said the death of Osama Bin Laden was a “tragedy“. Wouldn’t sanction drone strike to kill ISIS leader. Voted to allow ISIS fighters to return from Syria. Opposed shoot to kill. Attended event organised by terrorist sympathising IHRC. Signed letter defending Lockerbie bombing suspects. Wrote letter in support of conman accused of fundraising for ISIS. Spoke of “friendship” with Mo Kozbar, who called for destruction of Israel. Attended event with Abdullah Djaballah, who called for holy war against UK. Called drone strikes against terrorists “obscene”. Boasted about “opposing anti-terror legislation”. Said laws banning jihadis from returning to Britain are “strange”. Accepted £5,000 donation from terror supporter Ted Honderich. Quite something when you put it all down in one place… I only have to look at number 48 regarding philosopher Ted Honderich to see how grossly biased your view of these events is. Jeremy Corbyn is one of the good guys, the world needs many more respecters of humanity like him. .
June 17, 20178 yr We can all see the burnt cladding, so there is little doubt how the fire spreaded. A sprinkler system would have saved lives but whose fault is this for not having one installed? the architects? the H&S regulations? or TM? As far as looking for a political dimension in this tragedy, I much prefer waiting for the inquest before making/choosing one. Less chance of barking up the wrong tree. What you express as political opinion looks like scapegoating to me at this moment in time. I can only assume that you've been living in a cave and have expressly ignored the post immediately before mine which shows that this Government's aim has long been to degrade the H&S regulations which help keep us safe in out beds.You are also clearly unaware of the circumstances surrounding this tragedy and your faith in some future inquiry/inquest in establishing the facts may be misplaced. However here are some facts so feel free to argue these: The residents' action group sought legal aid to force KTCMO to improve safety in Grenfell Tower but could not afford this due to cuts in Legal Aid....a result of Tory legislation. All complaints were ignored and the Group issued a statement at the time which said " “[we] firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders.” 90% of residents signed a petition for an investigation into KCTMO’s handling of safety concerns. In 2009 after yet another fatal Tower block fire a Coroner's report recommended that sprinklers be fitted to all Tower blocks due for refurbishment. This was refused by Government Minister Brandon Lewis who said that he knew that these were effective but refused on the basis that enforcement would add to the"burden of regulations". Edited June 17, 20178 yr by Georgew
June 17, 20178 yr Care to back that statement up? Links please! In the meantime you can run your eye down this long list of your leaders terrorist supporting activities Invited two IRA members to parliament two weeks after the Brighton bombing. Attended Bloody Sunday commemoration with bomber Brendan McKenna. Attended meeting with Provisional IRA member Raymond McCartney. Hosted IRA linked Mitchell McLaughlin in parliament. Spoke alongside IRA terrorist Martina Anderson. Attended Sinn Fein dinner with IRA bomber Gerry Kelly. Chaired Irish republican event with IRA bomber Brendan MacFarlane. Attended Bobby Sands commemoration honouring IRA terrorists. Stood in minute’s silence for IRA gunmen shot dead by the SAS. Refused to condemn the IRA in Sky News interview. Refused to condemn the IRA on Question Time. Refused to condemn IRA violence in BBC radio interview. Signed EDM after IRA Poppy massacre massacre blaming Britain for the deaths. Arrested while protesting in support of Brighton bomber’s co-defendants. Lobbied government to improve visiting conditions for IRA killers. Attended Irish republican event calling for armed conflict against Britain. Hired suspected IRA man Ronan Bennett as a parliamentary assistant. Hired another aide closely linked to several convicted IRA terrorists. Heavily involved with IRA sympathising newspaper London Labour Briefing. Put up £20,000 bail money for IRA terror suspect Roisin McAliskey. Didn’t support IRA ceasefire. Said Hamas and Hezbollah are his “friends“. Called for Hamas to be removed from terror banned list. Called Hamas “serious and hard-working“. Attended wreath-laying at grave of Munich massacre terrorist. Attended conference with Hamas and PFLP. Photographed smiling with Hezbollah flag. Attended rally with Hezbollah and Al-Muhajiroun. Repeatedly shared platforms with PFLP plane hijacker. Hired aide who praised Hamas’ “spirit of resistance“. Accepted £20,000 for state TV channel of terror-sponsoring Iranian regime. Opposed banning Britons from travelling to Syria to fight for ISIS. Defended rights of fighters returning from Syria. Said ISIS supporters should not be prosecuted. Compared fighters returning from Syria to Nelson Mandela. Said the death of Osama Bin Laden was a “tragedy“. Wouldn’t sanction drone strike to kill ISIS leader. Voted to allow ISIS fighters to return from Syria. Opposed shoot to kill. Attended event organised by terrorist sympathising IHRC. Signed letter defending Lockerbie bombing suspects. Wrote letter in support of conman accused of fundraising for ISIS. Spoke of “friendship” with Mo Kozbar, who called for destruction of Israel. Attended event with Abdullah Djaballah, who called for holy war against UK. Called drone strikes against terrorists “obscene”. Boasted about “opposing anti-terror legislation”. Said laws banning jihadis from returning to Britain are “strange”. Accepted £5,000 donation from terror supporter Ted Honderich. Quite something when you put it all down in one place… Tommie, the use of a word like "terrorist" is intended as a put down and to stifle debate. Virtually every" freedom fighter" anywhere in the world has been labelled a terrorist by an opposing view. It is the simplest of responses to make. Are the American service men and women controlling remotely controlled gun and missile platforms from the safety of bases in the US terrorists,? are the mossad agents who occasionally assinate terrorists,? are the Russian green men who went into a supposed free Ukraine Crimea, terrorist , are the north Korean infiltration agents in south Korea terrorist? Were the members of the French secret service who blew up a Greenpeace boat , killing a crew member, in Australia terrorist.? Were the "unionist supporters" who bombed Dublin and Monaghan, at the time of a critical vote on security, also terrorist?. Are the Spetnetz, the SAS, the Seals, and all the other special forces, who do their governments dirty work terrorists or patriots..? .
June 17, 20178 yr Author I don't think I need add anything to this video clip. https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1479297055424759 Tom
June 17, 20178 yr While Tom consults with his lefty mates, if they're not out rioting of course, i note a certain Mustafa Almansur, who is the organiser of Friday's Grenfell Tower demonstration, in which protesters stormed Kensington Town Hall, is a Jeremy Corbyn-supporting political activist who was once arrested on suspicion of terrorism offences, it`s a sad day in this country when a political movement can hijack a terrible tragedy and use it to vent their anger at losing an election ... As you will see in my other response to you I do not always agree, but in this case I can . Political activists and opportunists are always ready to jump on a derail protest. Case in point, I like many other Dubliners marched to the British Embassy on Stephens green on the day following the massacre of Irish people in the Bloody Sunday in Derry \ London Derry. It was a peaceful protest until a lorry load (actually a Bedford lorry )of trained provocativers arrived and within 10 minutes the scene became very ugly, with petrol bombs being thrown at the hapless guard on duty. I immediately left, with the firm resolve never to accept anothers opinion on trust. So I can fully accept that the understandable anger of the local community is being manipulated. The place to sort these things out is in court not on the street. There are plenty of avenues open to the wronged including inquests, commercial courts, criminal negligence, civil actions, the state if necessary can be brought before the ECJ and other bodies.
June 17, 20178 yr While Tom consults with his lefty mates, if they're not out rioting of course, i note a certain Mustafa Almansur, who is the organiser of Friday's Grenfell Tower demonstration, in which protesters stormed Kensington Town Hall, is a Jeremy Corbyn-supporting political activist who was once arrested on suspicion of terrorism offences, it`s a sad day in this country when a political movement can hijack a terrible tragedy and use it to vent their anger at losing an election Good heavens. You tell me this now? If I had known that Tom was a lefty and also a rioter I'd never have supported his views...dear me no. I mean that's bad enough but now you say that the organiser of a Grenfell protest is a brown person and supports Corbyn and was a suspected terrorist. Holy Jasus....if he's also a member of the DUP I'm going to kill myself. This country's gone to hell.
June 17, 20178 yr ... The place to sort these things out is in court not on the street. There are plenty of avenues open to the wronged including inquests, commercial courts, criminal negligence, civil actions, the state if necessary can be brought before the ECJ and other bodies. May God place a flower on your head......such innocence should not be allowed to go unrewarded.
June 17, 20178 yr Thats a silly argument Dan, going by that then you can say that both sides in WW1 and 2 were `terrorists`, maybe you`re purposely trying to muddy the waters?! Now lets have your take on this example, An IRA cell in Warrington blew to pieces two young innocent boys who had no idea what politics were, they were defenseless innocent young children. Now are you going to tell me `Oh well it wasn`t an act of terrorism the IRA were `freedom fighters`??!! Freedom from what could justify that act? and I don`t want to hear one of your long-winded diatribes that skirts around the issue
June 17, 20178 yr However here are some facts so feel free to argue these You seem to know what has happened and how it happened and who is to blame. there are about 4,000 high rise buildings being used for housing in and around London alone. If you were the housing minister or the head of H&S, would you guarantee that none will ever burn on your watch?
June 17, 20178 yr You seem to know what has happened and how it happened and who is to blame. there are about 4,000 high rise buildings being used for housing in and around London alone. If you were the housing minister or the head of H&S, would you guarantee that none will ever burn on your watch? Just think...if you had bothered to find out you also would be informed. As to your last remark...it's silly and really warrants no reply....however as a believer in self-improvement I would say that if I was really concerned with fire safety then I wouldn't do as Boris has done and have cut the London Fire Service. "Boris’s cuts in 2014 saw the closure of 10 fire stations, the loss of 552 firefighters’ jobs and the removal of 27 engines. " I wouldn't have relaxed the legislation concerning building regulations either I confess or abused those who objected to this.....but then that's just me. As the Guardian says....... "It will take months, perhaps years, for the inquiry into the Grenfell Tower disaster to conclude, but what is apparent is that the public and firefighters have been catastrophically let down. A fire like this should never have happened, a fire should not spread like this across the outside of a building and a fire in a high-rise building should be contained within the compartment of origin. There are many serious questions to ask, and the answers must not only be given but, crucially, action must be taken." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/15/cuts-fire-service-putting-lives-at-risk Edited June 17, 20178 yr by Georgew
June 17, 20178 yr there is really no need to be patronizing in this day and age of the internet. most of the known facts are summarized in the wiki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fire#Grenfell_Tower Are you assuming that I post before googling?
June 17, 20178 yr Thats a silly argument Dan, going by that then you can say that both sides in WW1 and 2 were `terrorists`, maybe you`re purposely trying to muddy the waters?! Now lets have your take on this example, An IRA cell in Warrington blew to pieces two young innocent boys who had no idea what politics were, they were defenseless innocent young children. Now are you going to tell me `Oh well it wasn`t an act of terrorism the IRA were `freedom fighters`??!! Freedom from what could justify that act? and I don`t want to hear one of your long-winded diatribes that skirts around the issue .. Those murders were not justified . The shooting dead of the perpetrators of the London bridge attack was justified, there was direct threat to innocent life. I don't think you are in a position to discuss the reasons for WW1, and I have no interest in seeking to enlighten you. Many historians would view WW2 as unfinished business from WW1, ... As a clue look to economics.
June 17, 20178 yr there is really no need to be patronizing in this day and age of the internet. most of the known facts are summarized in the wiki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fire#Grenfell_Tower Are you assuming that I post before googling? Not at all....not at all...I'm not assuming anything at all as it's clear you hadn't read any of the press accounts or any of the many background reports before posting. Nothing wrong with that of course...dear me no...but to condemn those who have as "politicising" the tragedy and of "bad taste" does invite repercussions..."patronising" though these may be. Being informed does have certain advantages when involved in debate.
June 17, 20178 yr being informed usually involves self doubt and systematic scepticism while politicising presumes a number of precepts. Until the inquest(s) are held, we don't even know how the fire was started leave alone circumstances leading to so many deaths.
June 17, 20178 yr being informed usually involves self doubt and systematic scepticism while politicising presumes a number of precepts. Until the inquest(s) are held, we don't even know how the fire was started leave alone other circumstances leading to so many deaths. As a very old person I have oodles of self-doubt usually arising from my now imperfect control of my bladder and I'm riddled with scepticism...systematic or otherwise. I find your faith in the integrity of the justice system touching but having viewed inquiries and inquests for nearly eighty years I'm unable to share this. It really doesn't matter how the fire was started...not a jot, what does matter was that it was not contained and spread. Again, there is already plenty of evidence that the panels used were a fire hazard and had been banned in many countries because of this (here Google is your friend). It does seem that the tenants themselves were only too aware of this and tried to take their complaints to law but unfortunately were unable to afford this.
June 17, 20178 yr May God place a flower on your head......such innocence should not be allowed to go unrewarded. .. the alternative is mob rule. The right way might be slower but it is surer. If one engages in street politics, it feeds into the narrative and the result is that the forces of law and order ( emphasis on order) are provided with the excuses for repression.
June 17, 20178 yr find your faith in the integrity of the justice system touching but having viewed inquiries and inquests for nearly eighty years I'm unable to share this. It really doesn't matter how the fire was started...not a jot, what does matter was that it was not contained and spread. Again, there is already plenty of evidence that the panels used were a fire hazard and had been banned in many countries because of this (here Google is your friend). It does seem that the tenants themselves were only too aware of this and tried to take their complaints to law but unfortunately were unable to afford this. it seems that the GAG wasn't aware of the danger of the new cladding. With hindsight, those panels, the timber battens etc should have never been used and the sprinklers installed, but those are issues for the architects supervising the project, not TM or the conservative party.
June 17, 20178 yr .. the alternative is mob rule. The right way might be slower but it is surer. If one engages in street politics, it feeds into the narrative and the result is that the forces of law and order ( emphasis on order) are provided with the excuses for repression. Let heaven save me from such a false dichotomy....you should be ashamed. Some might reflect that an overhaul of the whole system might be an answer rather than taking to the streets and throwing things. Now if I were an English person I might think that eliminating the class division permeating the justice system may offer a way forward...but then that's just me. Anyway there is evidence that the State needs no excuse for repression as past events have shown.
June 17, 20178 yr it seems that the GAG wasn't aware of the danger of the new cladding. With hindsight, those panels, the timber battens etc should have never been used and the sprinklers installed, but those are issues for the architects supervising the project, not TM or the conservative party. I'm afraid that you're still running to catch up but losing ground. The Action group had already stated: “It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders,” Last year, the fire brigade served an enforcement notice to KCTMO for Adair Tower nearby and looking very similar to Grenfell. "It criticised the organisation for a range of failures. It had failed to carry it a risk assessment, hadn’t properly introduced measures to prevent and protect from fire, wasn’t stopping the use of substances that could cause a fire, didn’t maintain proper exit routes, didn’t have a proper fire plan and had failed to ensure that the premises and emergency equipment stored there were kept in good working order." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-fire-grenfell-tower-cladding-kctmo-kensington-chelsea-sadiq-khan-a7790566.html As to the Tories having clean hands....good luck with that.
June 17, 20178 yr it seems that the GAG wasn't aware of the danger of the new cladding. With hindsight, those panels, the timber battens etc should have never been used and the sprinklers installed, but those are issues for the architects supervising the project, not TM or the conservative party. .. The commissioning architects should have been aware. That is professional responsibility. There are material data sheets , guidance notes , nicely produced technical data sheets, with nice wire tags for putting into filing cabinets. An inquiry is necessary to determine whether such information existed ... And it is apparent that it did, That someone or some agency then made a decision to use an inappropriate solution, either because regulations had not been updated or they were at fault. If it transpired that regulations were not updated then the fault lies the political group in power.
June 17, 20178 yr .. The commissioning architects should have been aware. That is professional responsibility. There are material data sheets , guidance notes , nicely produced technical data sheets, with nice wire tags for putting into filing cabinets. An inquiry is necessary to determine whether such information existed ... And it is apparent that it did, That someone or some agency then made a decision to use an inappropriate solution, either because regulations had not been updated or they were at fault. If it transpired that regulations were not updated then the fault lies the political group in power. Sigh............................
June 17, 20178 yr Author The place to sort these things out is in court not on the street. There are plenty of avenues open to the wronged including inquests, commercial courts, criminal negligence, civil actions, the state if necessary can be brought before the ECJ and other bodies. 'Danidl', you continue to surprise me by some of your offerings. As an Irishman, (you), I would have thought that you would know better than to imagine that a British government might be amenable to due process in any forum. Were the case otherwise, there would never have been any need for Irishmen and women to take up arms against the British occupiers of their land. Equally, those British settlers and their dependents in America would never have had to rise up against their former government and declare independence. We also witnessed in 1982, following the land grab of the Falklands, exactly how the British government prefers to deal with any insurrection. They dealt with the 1984-85 miners' strike and the 1919 'Black Friday' demonstration in Glasgow by the use of violence and, in the case of the Glasgow riot, by Churchill's deployment of tanks and troops on the streets of that city. Sadly, the only thing a tory government understands is direct action - it is simply not possible for the common people to utilise the systems intended for dispute conciliation to their advantage. The reason for that quite simply is that the judiciary is a major plank of the establishment elite which also comprises the monarchy, aristocracy, the CofE, the media and the brainwashed working class who see themselves as middle class with a need to vote tory just like their bosses. The system is bent and broken and the recent disparaging remarks directed towards the Scots with regard to having a further independence referendum illustrated once again the contempt with which the establishment and their tory political representatives hold the Scots. The same is true for NI and Gibraltar. Having power is one thing; wielding absolute power is quite another as you well know but it is for that reason that people rise up and demonstrate against bad government. They are powerless to bring about change or improvement through any other means. Tom
June 17, 20178 yr It is all the talk about direct action being the only thing that tories understand is why labour lost the election. There are people who would rather demonstrate "not my government " than actually vote. In spite of all the hype the young were not the most active voters.
June 17, 20178 yr In spite of all the hype the young were not the most active voters. True, but they did have the largest increase in voting engagement, higher participation than ever before. They only need to increase to the participation level of the over 40s and Labour will be in power. . .
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