I doubt money will be a problem for the victims, since the government has set up a £5 million fund for them. Grenfell Tower had 120 flats, so that averages nearly £42,000 per home. Equivalent rental and mostly council flats should easily be furnished and re-equipped with that much money.

 

Their personal losses and the horrific experience they lived through can never be compensated, but at least they have no material worries now.

.

I hope that was intended to be sarcastic, in unlikely event that it was not... 42k would not go far, replace the entire contents of a flat, replace bedding and clothes , additional costs in extra medical visits for damaged respiratory tract, burying family members

I hope that was intended to be sarcastic, in unlikely event that it was not... 42k would not go far, replace the entire contents of a flat, replace bedding and clothes , additional costs in extra medical visits for damaged respiratory tract, burying family members

 

No, it wasn't intended to be sarcastic. These were mainly council flats with a very high proportion occupied by immigrants, many recent including from such as Syria, Libya etc and arriving here with nothing. They are unlikely to have high levels of possessions or particularly expensive ones.

 

Of course I'm not including medical and funeral costs, as I stated only material possessions. And of course the government grant will not be the only help, far from it, as Dave's Easyjet example shows.

.

No, it wasn't intended to be sarcastic. These were mainly council flats with a very high proportion occupied by immigrants, many recent including from such as Syria, Libya etc and arriving here with nothing. They are unlikely to have high levels of possessions or particularly expensive ones.

 

Of course I'm not including medical and funeral costs, as I stated only material possessions. And of course the government grant will not be the only help, far from it, as Dave's Easyjet example shows.

.

I have since seen the public press statements and it is termed Emergency relief, so once it starts , it should alliviate immediate problems..... Provided they can identify the refugees

A related matter is that there seems a very long delay in tabulating the statistics. .. How many people were expected to have been in the flats, how many are currently accounted for as safe or minimally physically injured, the number of seriously ill and the number of known fatalities ( this seems to be the only published number) . The number of people who exited the building on their own and the number who were assisted by the fire service

Obviously some of this data is difficult to collect , but crèches , school attendance lists, medical services social services and rent books, and voter registration, should have been combined by this stage.

we own it let the fkn ppl that need it use it

we own it let the fkn ppl that need it use it

.. I don't think you the people own it. You need to be a republic first. There is a reason why you are called subjects.

it is if we got to pay to fix it because it is a fire death trap as well pmsl:D

I have since seen the public press statements and it is termed Emergency relief, so once it starts , it should alliviate immediate problems..... Provided they can identify the refugees

A related matter is that there seems a very long delay in tabulating the statistics. .. How many people were expected to have been in the flats, how many are currently accounted for as safe or minimally physically injured, the number of seriously ill and the number of known fatalities ( this seems to be the only published number) . The number of people who exited the building on their own and the number who were assisted by the fire service

Obviously some of this data is difficult to collect , but crèches , school attendance lists, medical services social services and rent books, and voter registration, should have been combined by this stage.

Apparently our 'overwhelming fascist government' do not actually have accurate data on all of us.

I have seen it said that Amazon or Google probably have more accurate data than the Council.

Sadly, we must steel ourselves for the fact that the number who were killed may never be accurately known.

Bear in mind, not only were there residents in these flats, but visitors etc.

The Police hope that some who escaped, not being able to speak English, have not reported their survival, but that is a slim chance.

I do not envy the Fire Service, Police and Ambulance in the task ahead of them to search each flat, rake through the ashes to determine whether, seeing just how hot the fire was, there are any human remains.

Sad, sad times.

Theresa May has not any idea how to be compassionate,not once in her interview did she suggest care,more concerned that she should not be distracted from her robotic answers.

This is typical why she lost so badly in the recent election ,she doesn't understand people and how to react to grief.

She finds it very difficult to say sorry.

She has to go,she is useless for our country.

I dread to consider how she is going to negotiate Brexit which needs an understanding of all the elements,appreciate all the conflicting outcomes,it needs a deft touch which is not part of her CV.

KudosDave

you watch the council will sell that site when all is done and make a tidy profit on it to the tune of 10s of millions for private 1million quid flats 6x24 150 million quid for a developer.

 

and i bet not 1 council house is built even anywhere near it any time soon if at all.

My job involves me staying in hotels throughout the world. I used to think the wallpaper,widely used,was wood chip,but a manager explained it was additional fireproofing containing fibreglass.

I am sure that private buildings such as hotels are forced to incorporate fire protection,I remember constantly being forced by councils to install hard wire smoke alarms,fire proof materials,extinguishers on even 2-story houses.

Seems councils don't put the same standards,when they have to pay for it themselves.

Looks like big money will have to be spent on these old high rise buildings to upgrade the fire safety protection....Theresa May get the piggy bank out.

KudosDave

I am inclined to agree with you d8veh, but there are certain aspects of this current catastrophic event which may have a political dimension.

 

'Danidl', you have the same rather irritating habit as Henry Kissinger in that you portray a character wishing to appear neutral but in reality, you run with the hares and hunt with the hounds.

 

Of course there is a political aspect to this tragedy - one only has to consider the cuts capitalist government has imposed on local councils, on emergency services budgets and all the forced outsourcing from direct labour to profit-motivated private companies.

 

This horrendous tragedy presents many features distinguishing it from simply a terrible accident to something far more sinister, something that may well in due course place the root cause at the door of the tory party and their economic policies.

 

My comments on this matter have drawn the wrath of the right-wing extremist contributors on this forum because all those who support far-right politics just will not hear a word against their beloved tory party. If anyone should be to blame for each and every ill in the UK, it is always the fault of someone else and not the tory government or their supporters. It seems that it must have been the poor, the sick, the pensioners, the homeless, the immigrants and the socialists who created all the problems which beset the UK.

 

It is no surprise that the far-right wish to silence those who seek to apportion responsibility where it belongs - such is the way of all fascists.

 

The scenes of volunteers helping to distribute aid to those made homeless is not something organised by tory HQ; it is an expression of humanitarianism, the basis of socialism, at work. This help is freely given by people who don't question the origins of those in need. However, I have been disgusted by some comments I have read on social media and heard elsewhere regarding the fact that Grenfell Tower was largely occupied by immigrants, many of whom were muslim, black, etc..........and some really extreme advice as to how we need more Grenfell Towers to sort these problems.

 

No doubt, that kind of remarks will be regarded by the right-wingers as fair comment, just as the murder of Jo Cox MP was so blithely accepted as just a bit of collateral damage in the bigger picture of achieving independence from 27 other states, none of which share the English language.

 

I didn't turn 'Brexit' into the poisoned chalice and hot potato it has become. Neither did I exert political influence in London by anything I may have said or done. Those who complain that this human tragedy should not be politicised really need to take a step back and examine, for example, the actions of Boris Johnson, particularly in regard to water cannon, fire station closures and their subsequent sale to his cronies for next to nothing - they need also examine the tory party's savage cuts to local authority budgets.

 

These things are nothing if not political choices and as a result of such political choices, we are faced with possibly the biggest human disaster in London since the 1950s rail crashes at Lewisham and Harrow & Wealdstone. Lessons were learned from those tragedies and changes implemented to prevent recurrence. Sadly, it appears that little has changed since the wake-up call of the 2009 Camberwell tower block fire.

 

Tom

oldtom, this thread should be about the catastrophic failure of a solution to building insulation.

Politicising it is simply wrong.

wrong place, wrong time.

oldtom, this thread should be about the catastrophic failure of a solution to building insulation.

Politicising it is simply wrong.

wrong place, wrong time.

 

As I was the OP on this thread, I really don't need your advice as to how or what I should contribute to the story.

 

Your needless regurgitation of a previously made point just illustrates how you cannot accept that this tragedy was born out of political choices, systems, finances, lack of attention to rules and regulation, H&S issues, all abused or ignored by individuals and/or groups. I will press the case that this tragedy requires to be addressed on a political level now - not some unspecified time in the future which you or any other dissenter may deem decent and prudent.

 

Let's just take a quick look at some of the material from the media:

 

Here we have the PM apparently meeting some of the brave firefighters from the scene of the inferno:

 

 

While those people may well have been frontline firefighters once upon a time, they are certainly not the ones who went inside Grenfell Tower.

 

Then we have a tory MP voice a poorly-chosen comment about the anger that was demonstrated yesterday by some in London:

 

 

He, of course, is not politicising the matter!

 

Political ideals drove the names on this list to vote against an eminently sensible proposal:

 

 

David Lammy MP make a fair case in this interview:

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154943595776939

 

Turning to the non-mainstram media, the web blogger, AAV, produces a fair critique of the man behind the company which produced the flammable insulating tiles:

 

tony-rice-is-not-bad-man-but-hes-cashed.html

 

Those who attempt to claim this matter is not political and find it unpleasant, uncomfortable or unacceptable to read any criticism which refers to politics or politicians really need to get their heads out of the sand and stop living in denial.

 

It is all about politics, all of it, so all this, 'Not the right time/not the right place' guff is just sham. It is an effort to divert criticism away from the political will which created the conditions for exactly this kind of tragedy.

 

Tom

Obviously some of this data is difficult to collect , but crèches , school attendance lists, medical services social services and rent books, and voter registration, should have been combined by this stage.

 

I think they prefer to make sure of the data before releasing any of it, and frankly I don't blame them, given how unforgiving the media and public are.

 

A high proportion of these immigrant residents won't be on the electoral roll or even registered to doctors etc, and in London there's often illegals staying with them. In the end there will be a final count of the human remains, which will probably produce the only accurate figure.

.

Edited June 17, 20178 yr by flecc

As I was the OP on this thread, I really don't need your advice as to how or what I should contribute to the story.

 

your comment shows members how arrogant you are.

This was the scene in London last night. Are all these people wrong to demonstrate their anger on the streets of the capital? Should they all wait till a year, or two, or ten, has passed before passing comment on this murderous government?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1592019870837920

 

With thanks to AAV,

Tom

To all those good people who seek to protect Theresa May and her right-wing extremist government from any form of criticism by extolling such platitudes as 'This matter shouldn't be politicised / not the time' etc, please get real. That very political party and their media organs have advocated, supported and brought about the very means by which the Grenfell tragedy occurred, just like this by way of example:

 

 

 

And you might wish to remember which group received an 11% pay rise.....

 

 

Tom

oldtom, this thread should be about the catastrophic failure of a solution to building insulation.

Politicising it is simply wrong.

wrong place, wrong time.

 

I think this is totally wrong.

 

To regard this as merely an engineering problem to be considered without any political dimensions is not only naive but profoundly mistaken.

To introduce politics at this very moment cannot be viewed as merely a question of bad taste and to reduce it to such is in itself grossly offensive. Whether you like it or not it is political and was so from the moment the responsible Council farmed the refurbishment contract out to an independent company in order to save money. It became political when in order to win the contract the company cut costs and a widely banned type of panel containing combustible material was used and no sprinkler system fitted. It became political when the Council which has a multi-million contingency fund, refused to listen to the tenants' group who told them that the they were in real danger from the shoddy and dangerous refurbishment.

 

I'm afraid that "bad taste" is not top of the agenda at the moment with those most closely involved with the tragedy and it certainly doesn't resonate with me. There are far more serious matters to deal with, among them would be the repression of a safety report on the dangers of these high blocks which had been handed to a Tory Minister some time ago but had never seen the light of day.

I think they prefer to make sure of the data before releasing any of it, and frankly I don't blame them, given how unforgiving the media and public are.

 

A high proportion of these immigrant residents won't be on the electoral roll or even registered to doctors etc, and in London there's often illegals staying with them. In the end there will be a final count of the human remains, which will probably produce the only accurate figure.

.

.. a few hours after the fire , a member of the local council a councillor living adjacent to the tower block stated that 400 to 600 people lived in it. That is a variance of 30% . Now that was a reasonable comment for someone to make outside office hours, but it has not been revised, corrected or updated in the days that have followed.

Of course the actual number in the building will never be exactly known, people would be at parties , or on holidays elsewhere, but it would have been expected that a statement along the lines of . There were x registered as living there. .

I would have expected the authorities to have interviewed known survivors and ask them who were your neighbours, ?were they in or out etc?. This was basically a vertical village, and according to locals part of a vibrant community.

Like OT in his original post, I would agree with you,being careful with figures rather than sensational estimates for media consumption is preferable.

To regard this as merely an engineering problem to be considered without any political dimensions is not only naive but profoundly mistaken.

We can all see the burnt cladding, so there is little doubt how the fire spreaded.

A sprinkler system would have saved lives but whose fault is this for not having one installed? the architects? the H&S regulations? or TM?

As far as looking for a political dimension in this tragedy, I much prefer waiting for the inquest before making/choosing one. Less chance of barking up the wrong tree.

What you express as political opinion looks like scapegoating to me at this moment in time.

Edited June 17, 20178 yr by Woosh

As I was the OP on this thread, I really don't need your advice as to how or what I should contribute to the story.

I have a dream that your house would burn down with you in it. I don't think I'm the only one. If it happens I will personally post an obituary in the Socialist Worker, in which I'll mention that your burning was Theresa May's fault.

I would have expected the authorities to have interviewed known survivors and ask them who were your neighbours, ?were they in or out etc?. This was basically a vertical village, and according to locals part of a vibrant community.

 

Only outsiders think London is a big city, it is in fact a large number of villages, almost all with vibrant communities, often ethnic based. But I think you have little concept of life in flats, especially in this sort of tower block.

 

With five flats on each floor, it's not uncommon for occupants of one to not know most or even any of the others, while having close relationships with some on other floors and in other local buildings. And with front doors in this sort of block often apart and even out of sight of each other, it's not necessarily known who is in or out at any time.

 

I'm London born and bred and have lived the last 50 plus years in flats and have friends in two tall blocks of the kind in question, so know the circumstances extremely well. My current flat is in a more individual building with six flats in each three floor section. Sitting here typing I have no idea if there's anyone else in the other five flats at the moment. I know the current residents by first name and we have friendly relations, but we live our own separate lives.

 

However, like so much of London the community is very mobile with constant changes in residents, two of the six flats in my section empty since Mark and Kate who I'd known for just eight weeks moved from one and Beth who I'd known for less than a year from another, both moving last week. When others move in it will be a while before I get a chance to introduce myself, but our relationship may just remain casual with little knowledge of each other's lives.

 

However, I do have many friendships, some decades long, with others in neighbouring buildings and throughout the estate, which is largely a very vibrant community with numerous organisations we've set up. But in the event of a disaster, I doubt I could give much useful data on who is where and whether they were present at any one moment in time, despite this being my fiftieth year in this location.

.

This piece on the hugely unreliable BBC news web page certainly illustrates how this issue is undeniably political.

 

There is simply no escaping the fact that people, even people totally unconnected with those who have perished or those who now suffer as a result of the inferno, see this matter very clearly as a result of political choices.

 

blogs-the-papers-40310518

 

Tom

She's also busy sucking up to the horrific terrorist-backed DUP (the most extreme party in Westminster, who make the UKIP fruitcakes look like softy-moderates in comparison)

 

Care to back that statement up? Links please!

In the meantime you can run your eye down this long list of your leaders terrorist supporting activities

 

1. Invited two IRA members to parliament two weeks after the Brighton bombing.
   
2. Attended Bloody Sunday commemoration with bomber Brendan McKenna.
   
3. Attended meeting with Provisional IRA member Raymond McCartney.
   
4. Hosted IRA linked Mitchell McLaughlin in parliament.
   
5. Spoke alongside IRA terrorist Martina Anderson.
   
6. Attended Sinn Fein dinner with IRA bomber Gerry Kelly.
   
7. Chaired Irish republican event with IRA bomber Brendan MacFarlane.
   
8. Attended Bobby Sands commemoration honouring IRA terrorists.
   
9. Stood in minute’s silence for IRA gunmen shot dead by the SAS.
   
10. Refused to condemn the IRA in Sky News interview.
    
11. Refused to condemn the IRA on Question Time.
    
12. Refused to condemn IRA violence in BBC radio interview.
    
13. Signed EDM after IRA Poppy massacre massacre blaming Britain for the deaths.
    
14. Arrested while protesting in support of Brighton bomber’s co-defendants.
    
15. Lobbied government to improve visiting conditions for IRA killers.
    
16. Attended Irish republican event calling for armed conflict against Britain.
    
17. Hired suspected IRA man Ronan Bennett as a parliamentary assistant.
    
18. Hired another aide closely linked to several convicted IRA terrorists.
    
19. Heavily involved with IRA sympathising newspaper London Labour Briefing.
    
20. Put up £20,000 bail money for IRA terror suspect Roisin McAliskey.
    
21. Didn’t support IRA ceasefire.
    
22. Said Hamas and Hezbollah are his “friends“.
    
23. Called for Hamas to be removed from terror banned list.
    
24. Called Hamas “serious and hard-working“.
    
25. Attended wreath-laying at grave of Munich massacre terrorist.
    
26. Attended conference with Hamas and PFLP.
    
27. Photographed smiling with Hezbollah flag.
    
28. Attended rally with Hezbollah and Al-Muhajiroun.
    
29. Repeatedly shared platforms with PFLP plane hijacker.
    
30. Hired aide who praised Hamas’ “spirit of resistance“.
    
31. Accepted £20,000 for state TV channel of terror-sponsoring Iranian regime.
    
32. Opposed banning Britons from travelling to Syria to fight for ISIS.
    
33. Defended rights of fighters returning from Syria.
    
34. Said ISIS supporters should not be prosecuted.
    
35. Compared fighters returning from Syria to Nelson Mandela.
    
36. Said the death of Osama Bin Laden was a “tragedy“.
    
37. Wouldn’t sanction drone strike to kill ISIS leader.
    
38. Voted to allow ISIS fighters to return from Syria.
    
39. Opposed shoot to kill.
    
40. Attended event organised by terrorist sympathising IHRC.
    
41. Signed letter defending Lockerbie bombing suspects.
    
42. Wrote letter in support of conman accused of fundraising for ISIS.
    
43. Spoke of “friendship” with Mo Kozbar, who called for destruction of Israel.
    
44. Attended event with Abdullah Djaballah, who called for holy war against UK.
    
45. Called drone strikes against terrorists “obscene”.
    
46. Boasted about “opposing anti-terror legislation”.
    
47. Said laws banning jihadis from returning to Britain are “strange”.
    
48. Accepted £5,000 donation from terror supporter Ted Honderich.
    

Quite something when you put it all down in one place…

While Tom consults with his lefty mates, if they're not out rioting of course, i note a certain Mustafa Almansur, who is the organiser of Friday's Grenfell Tower demonstration, in which protesters stormed Kensington Town Hall, is a Jeremy Corbyn-supporting political activist who was once arrested on suspicion of terrorism offences,

 

it`s a sad day in this country when a political movement can hijack a terrible tragedy and use it to vent their anger at losing an election