June 17, 20178 yr .. The commissioning architects should have been aware. That is professional responsibility. There are material data sheets , guidance notes , nicely produced technical data sheets, with nice wire tags for putting into filing cabinets. An inquiry is necessary to determine whether such information existed ... And it is apparent that it did, That someone or some agency then made a decision to use an inappropriate solution, either because regulations had not been updated or they were at fault. If it transpired that regulations were not updated then the fault lies the political group in power. there is also an issue with the planning department. Such work needed to pass building inspection. The timber battens would not have passed building regs on a high rise building. did the architects apply for planning consent?
June 17, 20178 yr By a weird coincidence, the day before this terrible fire a BBC Radio 4 program in the series "The Curious Cases of Rutherford and Fry" was discussing the subject of fire. As part of the program at 5 minutes 15 seconds there's a Building Research Establishment test in their Burns Hall of building cladding being set on fire, the subject and the test returned to at 10 minutes 58 seconds when there's a graphic description of burning cladding falling from the test building, just like the Grenfell event but broadcast the day before. The whole 19 minute program is interesting, or you can just listen on the i-player at the two times I've indicated. Obviously there exists much prior awareness of the risks of burning cladding spreading fire up the outside of buildings: Here's the link . Edited June 17, 20178 yr by flecc
June 17, 20178 yr we still need to know how the fire started and if it was accidental or not. A tenant has already said that the fire started in his flat due to a faulty Fridge......though why you should feel this is important escapes me. What is important is that the fire spread rapidly up through the outer cladding and it is thought that the composition of the cladding panels (filled with combustible material) and the gaps, which allowed an upward draft effect were responsible. I understand that this has been the case in tower blocks with similar outside cladding and it had been observed in testing procedures previously.
June 17, 20178 yr What is important is that the fire spread rapidly up through the outer cladding and it is thought that the composition of the cladding panels (filled with combustible material) and the gaps, which allowed an upward draft effect were responsible. I understand that this has been the case in tower blocks with similar outside cladding and it had been observed in testing procedures previously. In addition the block apparently had Upvc plastic window frames, which can burn and quickly transfer the indoor fire out to the cladding. It's clear from the images that most of the window frames have been burnt out, something that could never happen with steel window frames. .
June 17, 20178 yr A tenant has already said that the fire started in his flat due to a faulty Actually, it was hearsay. It certainly not words from the owner of the fridge. What caused the fridge to explode? was it a home made bomb? Was it started on the fourth floor or second floor? We still don't know. How did the fire get from the fridge (if it is confirmed) to the cladding?
June 17, 20178 yr This is what we should be concentrating on and why the cladding is permitted when it's not in other countries. Architects build to the regs, they do not set them.
June 17, 20178 yr More to the point, what is being done right now? A hollow drill 'core plug' design could be used to obtain samples very quickly from every suspect panel any where in the UK. It only needs a blow lamp to determine whether the material is highly/ low/ combustible or self extinguishing. Instead of dithering, Mrs May could use her Prime ministerial authority to order such test throughout the UK
June 17, 20178 yr Author This is how the Fire Commissioner spoke of her firefighters and we should all feel humble: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1479732225381242 Tom
June 17, 20178 yr Architects build to the regs, they do not set them. they have access to reynolux catalog. It's clear they could have chosen reynolux for fire - high rise building. Note these products have EN 13501-1 http://pdf.archiexpo.com/pdf/arconic-architectural-products-merxheim-frankreic/brcohure-our-fire-solutions-aluminium-facades-roofs-cladding/67104-294405.html right from page one: When conceiving a building, it is crucial to choose the adapted products in order to avoid the fi re to spread to the whole building. Especially when it comes to facades and roofs, the fi re can spread extremely rapidly. their clear warning is: as soon as the building is higher than a fireman ladder, the material has to be incombustible. Edited June 17, 20178 yr by Woosh
June 17, 20178 yr 'Danidl', you continue to surprise me by some of your offerings. As an Irishman, (you), I would have thought that you would know better than to imagine that a British government might be amenable to due process in any forum. Were the case otherwise, there would never have been any need for Irishmen and women to take up arms against the British occupiers of their land. Equally, those British settlers and their dependents in America would never have had to rise up against their former government and declare independence. We also witnessed in 1982, following the land grab of the Falklands, exactly how the British government prefers to deal with any insurrection. They dealt with the 1984-85 miners' strike and the 1919 'Black Friday' demonstration in Glasgow by the use of violence and, in the case of the Glasgow riot, by Churchill's deployment of tanks and troops on the streets of that city. Sadly, the only thing a tory government understands is direct action - it is simply not possible for the common people to utilise the systems intended for dispute conciliation to their advantage. The reason for that quite simply is that the judiciary is a major plank of the establishment elite which also comprises the monarchy, aristocracy, the CofE, the media and the brainwashed working class who see themselves as middle class with a need to vote tory just like their bosses. The system is bent and broken and the recent disparaging remarks directed towards the Scots with regard to having a further independence referendum illustrated once again the contempt with which the establishment and their tory political representatives hold the Scots. The same is true for NI and Gibraltar. Having power is one thing; wielding absolute power is quite another as you well know but it is for that reason that people rise up and demonstrate against bad government. They are powerless to bring about change or improvement through any other means. Tom . Tom, those in power don't need the law, it is the less powerful who need the law to constrain the powerful. That is the principle that has guided law since Magna Carta. .. to put limits on arbitrary power. . Since the turn of the 20th century,, there has been a huge improvement in the rights of ordinary people . I confess I liked the Labour slogan .. for the many not the few Unfortunately the wealthy and power elites can afford to buy access to law and often attempt to buy changes in the law. The place to resist is now via the ballot box and the law courts. The alternative is revolution and mayhem. This does mean that there needs to be constant vigilance. Recognise that you do live in a country where there is rule of law, that there will always be groups trying to wrestle more power and privilege for themselves, and that this dynamic will continue. Coming from what is a weak country, .. our population is no more than the greater Manchester region, we can appreciate that all the more At the risk of getting another missive from your namesake, the respective different trajectories of the two tribes in NI . is illustrative. The republican tribe grasped the opportunities afforded by free access to higher education in the mid 1950s onwards, I don't recall the act, and opted to study law etc. The other tribe choose not to. By the late 1960s , there was a sufficient population of lawyers to question then established practices.. the civil rights marches in 1969 were the result. The official response from the local government was repression, and that left an opening for the IRA to exploit. All the gains achieved in NI have been by negotiation, not by violence. Edited June 17, 20178 yr by Danidl
June 18, 20178 yr Author Unfortunately the wealthy and power elites can afford to buy access to law and often attempt to buy changes in the law. The place to resist is now via the ballot box and the law courts. The alternative is revolution and mayhem. This does mean that there needs to be constant vigilance. Recognise that you do live in a country where there is rule of law, that there will always be groups trying to wrestle more power and privilege for themselves, and that this dynamic will continue. All the gains achieved in NI have been by negotiation, not by violence. 'Danidl', if only it were as simple as you suggest! Firstly, I don't accept for a moment that the achievements gained in NI have been the result purely of sensible discussion and negotiation. Without the armed struggle, there would never have been any meaningful discussions. I can think of many example, as I'm sure you can, where political change was effected only through armed struggle, often bloody civil war. Obvious examples would be France, the USA, Russia, Cuba, China but it becomes a very long list when one looks deeply enough. It is rather fanciful to suggest that the answer to the poor and underprivileged lies in the law and/or the ballot box. Were those systems not so rigged by the wealthy elite, that might be true. Unfortunately, those remedies failed the common people in all those countries I mentioned, as they have failed us in the UK time and time again. Negotiations have not helped the Palestinian people one bit in their struggle, nor have they helped resolve the problems elsewhere in the middle-east. I do agree, however, with your assessment of the slogan appended to the Corbyn campaign. When sufficient numbers eventually take off their blindfolds and examine dispassionately how little, centuries of what the media refer to as monarchical democracy has given the many, then the British political system might change. It is incredibly difficult though when the very sources of remedy you suggest are all in it together and we have such a skewed constituency arrangement which is democratic in name only. ps I had always thought that Corbyn-associated slogan sounded familiar and on reading the report of an address given yesterday in Brighton, the speaker referred to it more fully, like this: 'Rise, like lions after slumber In unvanquishable number! Shake your chains to earth like dew Which in sleep had fallen on you: Ye are many—they are few!' It is part of the poem, 'The Masque of Anarchy' by Percy Shelley. Tom Edited June 18, 20178 yr by oldtom
June 18, 20178 yr Author Should anyone be interested in the speech from Brighton yesterday, entirely relevant to the Grenfell tragedy, it is here: vacuum-of-accountability Tom
June 18, 20178 yr All the gains achieved in NI have been by negotiation, not by violence. But the effective IRA violence had to come first in order to trigger negotiations that brought results. This is why the Palestinians have achieved nothing, deprived of the arms and access necessary to really hurt Israel, there's no need for the latter to negotiate any advantage for the Palestinians. They can just carry on taking land and property at will in a form of slow motion genocide. .
June 18, 20178 yr Actually, it was hearsay. It certainly not words from the owner of the fridge. What caused the fridge to explode? was it a home made bomb? Was it started on the fourth floor or second floor? We still don't know. How did the fire get from the fridge (if it is confirmed) to the cladding? Really?....................OK. "The flat’s owner, said to be mini-cab driver Behailu Kebede, reportedly attempted to warn other residents about the blaze in his kitchen, potentially saving lives. Neighbours told how Mr Kebede, a father of one, immediately raised the alarm after discovering the fire in his flat, which was number 16 in the 24-story block, as well as contacting the police and fire services." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-cause-fridge-faulty-fourth-floor-london-kensington-disaster-latest-a7792566.html Edited June 18, 20178 yr by Georgew
June 18, 20178 yr [ATTACH=full]19779[/ATTACH] Tom The same has been happening for years with the London Ambulance Service, constant reductions and fiddling with the operational side to save money. By fiddling the figures they can still claim that 60 to 75% of calls meet the response time target of 8 minutes, but the reality is very different. Crews are regularly despatched on genuine emergencies but then diverted half way when something considered even more urgent crops up. They can even get diverted yet again, leaving the earlier callers stuck for up to an hour or more, simply because there are not enough ambulances any more. .
June 18, 20178 yr Attempts to view this as a tragic event, but one limited to mistakes made in the refurbishment of the Tower Block seem unlikely to succeed. Protests that the incident should not be politicised and that this amounts to "bad taste" appear to have been ignored. "The extent to which government ministers failed to act on expert warnings about inadequate fire safety rules before the Grenfell Tower disaster in London can be revealed by the Observer. As public outrage mounted and political pressure grew on Theresa May over the tragedy, former chief fire officer Ronnie King – who is secretary of the all-party parliamentary group on fire safety – said urgent requests for meetings with ministers and action to tighten rules were stonewalled. King also revealed that ministers had failed to insist that life-saving sprinkler systems were mandatory in the design of new schools in England, despite clear recommendations in reports commissioned by the government itself, which advocated their use." https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/17/tower-block-fire-warnings-grenfell-victims
June 18, 20178 yr [mention=13712]Georgew[/mention] Philip Hammond said this morning that flammable claddings that are banned in the USA and many EU countries are also banned in the UK. As for Mr Kebede, he's said nothing to the press and the police also said nothing on the cause of the fire. I try my best to stay factual.
June 18, 20178 yr Philip Hammond said this morning that flammable claddings that are banned in the USA and many EU countries are also banned in the UK. I think Hammond is just trying to be smart. Yes, inflammable claddings are banned, but the supporting backing for the claddings is often flammable and widely used. Expanded polystyrene for example. When the backing burns as in the Grenfell example, the disastrous effect is the same. .
June 18, 20178 yr [mention=13712]Georgew[/mention] Philip Hammond said this morning that flammable claddings that are banned in the USA and many EU countries are also banned in the UK. As for Mr Kebede, he's said nothing to the press and the police also said nothing on the cause of the fire. I try my best to stay factual. Good luck with that.........this is a Tory politician saying this.....right? Just has to be a fact then....I mean it's not as if he's involved in any way.
June 18, 20178 yr Good luck with that.........this is a Tory politician saying this.....right? Just has to be a fact then....I mean it's not as if he's involved in any way. may I add that the cladding may have not been the cause of deaths, the amount of PE core seems to me insufficient, and the PIR (polyisocyanurate foam) may be. often patience is really a virtue.
June 18, 20178 yr may I add that the cladding may have not been the cause of deaths, the amount of PE core seems to me insufficient, and the PIR (polyisocyanurate foam) may be. That's like saying guns don't kill, it's the bullets.
June 18, 20178 yr croxden, it takes a lot longer to set fire to the cladding than to the foam. Even if the core of the cladding were incombustible instead of just fire retardant (their PE core is treated with FR), the foam would still burn under the circumstance.
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