Further to post #117, There remains a fault in the arithmetic of the fatality numbers at Grenfell Tower.

 

The word on the street is that there will be about 300 dead so the drip-fed figures issued so far must be way out. If there were hundreds more survivors than we have been given to understand five days after the event, where are they?

 

It is unlikely that several hundred residents all happened to go on foreign holidays at the same time so, as they have not appeared anywhere to confirm they are alive and well, I'll speculate and say they are still inside that shell of a building.

 

Now, I'd like to think that somehow, there must be another reason for the apparent absence of survivors but I cannot understand why the collator of casualty figures cannot, by now, at least give an approximation of the likely total fatalities. I say that because even if the approximation should be off the mark, it won't be any further off than the present misleading figure.

 

Tom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FofQcnuSHUY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FofQcnuSHUY

Why? Who stands to gain by delaying publishing reasonable statistics. That the police commander, said on day 1 that they would be cautious was commendable, but that was a number of days ago. He has since stated that firemen have been in every flat in the building. Now either they are waiting for DNA samples or dental implants as evidence of bodies being present and these are being analysed or what?

The police are currently the honest broker here and they have a statute duty to identify and record the deaths, so they should at this stage have decent records.

 

The local authority has the list of the lessors, so they must have a good idea

Why? Who stands to gain by delaying publishing reasonable statistics. That the police commander, said on day 1 that they would be cautious was commendable, but that was a number of days ago. He has since stated that firemen have been in every flat in the building. Now either they are waiting for DNA samples or dental implants as evidence of bodies being present and these are being analysed or what?

The police are currently the honest broker here and they have a statute duty to identify and record the deaths, so they should at this stage have decent records.

 

The local authority has the list of the lessors, so they must have a good idea

i bet the pm will be forced to do one when it has been found out 100s died in there and they was told it was a fire risk.

 

our shed roof still has asbestos on it n the council will not do jack about it or the cladding peeling of the out side walls asked for a wired fire alarm and was told to fit one our self WTF? still want full rent tho miss 2 payments or short 1 month and eviction papers in the post

Only outsiders think London is a big city, it is in fact a large number of villages, almost all with vibrant communities, often ethnic based. But I think you have little concept of life in flats, especially in this sort of tower block.

 

With five flats on each floor, it's not uncommon for occupants of one to not know most or even any of the others, while having close relationships with some on other floors and in other local buildings. And with front doors in this sort of block often apart and even out of sight of each other, it's not necessarily known who is in or out at any time.

 

I'm London born and bred and have lived the last 50 plus years in flats and have friends in two tall blocks of the kind in question, so know the circumstances extremely well. My current flat is in a more individual building with six flats in each three floor section. Sitting here typing I have no idea if there's anyone else in the other five flats at the moment. I know the current residents by first name and we have friendly relations, but we live our own separate lives.

 

However, like so much of London the community is very mobile with constant changes in residents, two of the six flats in my section empty since Mark and Kate who I'd known for just eight weeks moved from one and Beth who I'd known for less than a year from another, both moving last week. When others move in it will be a while before I get a chance to introduce myself, but our relationship may just remain casual with little knowledge of each other's lives.

 

However, I do have many friendships, some decades long, with others in neighbouring buildings and throughout the estate, which is largely a very vibrant community with numerous organisations we've set up. But in the event of a disaster, I doubt I could give much useful data on who is where and whether they were present at any one moment in time, despite this being my fiftieth year in this location.

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Flecc, I was speaking with my daughter at the weekend, who lives in a tiny basement flat in West Kensington and has a work colleague from around the Grenfell building. Her take was that there was much more of an intercommunity interaction than your picture paints. Younger people will in any event be more gregarious, and recent immigrants will have and use these networks for survival.

It is puzzling that more update status has not been published officially. More so because of an unofficial report on I think the express website of finding 42 bodies in a single room

i bet the pm will be forced to do one when it has been found out 100s died in there and they was told it was a fire risk.

 

our shed roof still has asbestos on it n the council will not do jack about it or the cladding peeling of the out side walls asked for a wired fire alarm and was told to fit one our self WTF? still want full rent tho miss 2 payments or short 1 month and eviction papers in the post

 

.. at the risk of being offensive, if you can afford the quality and type of audio gear you showed on another thread, you can afford the price for a few fire alarms . Are they not just 8£ a unit.

we had wired ones when we moved in but they had been removed and the sockets just left there asked for new ones as were wired to the mains and told no as the contractor does not fit them and the council wont pay for hole new ones? and that was 10 years ago.

 

we got 3kw of solar panels on the roof and a converter in the attic but still no fire alarms bar the ones we bought. and just a few weeks ago the fire service was doing checks but only went to the private owned houses wonder why lol.

Flecc, I was speaking with my daughter at the weekend, who lives in a tiny basement flat in West Kensington and has a work colleague from around the Grenfell building. Her take was that there was much more of an intercommunity interaction than your picture paints. Younger people will in any event be more gregarious, and recent immigrants will have and use these networks for survival.

 

That's no different from what I've posted about our vibrant communities, my point being that the close communication isn't necessarily between next door neighbours. It's often with many scattered around an immediate area, the networks you mention.

 

We've seen this on TV, neighbours from other buildings who know some of those in the tower

 

Look back at my post and you'll see I was explaining that people in the tower won't always know if immediate neighbours are in, or their habits, making them unreliable sources of information after a disaster.

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While tory government and tory councils are not prepared to expend taxpayers' money on the provision and maintenance of of decent homes for the underprivileged, even ignoring the best available product information as seen here..........

 

 

........I am pretty sure all the royal residences are bang up to date with state of the art safety equipment.

 

If anyone needed evidence that there is a class war being waged by the elite against the poor, consider how many royal residences exist in the UK and how many bedrooms there are in total. The queen was given accolades by the media for visiting the scene of the fire tragedy and actually speaking with some of those affected, unlike the bitch who is masquerading as a Prime Minister.

 

We know that renovations and refurbishment of royal palaces and parliament will be funded by taxpayers' money regardless of cost. We know also that astronomical costs for doomsday weapons will be found from that same source. We can see that the tory vanity projects, HS2 & HS3 will be similarly funded but when it comes to the poor, the sick, the disabled, no consideration is given to their basic needs.

 

For such reasons, there are scores, possibly hundreds lying dead and unburied in Grenfell Tower. Class war!

 

Now back to the queen - bedroom tax? Any offer to utilise some of her spare rooms to accommodate the homeless?

 

 

Tom

While tory government and tory councils are not prepared to expend taxpayers' money on the provision and maintenance of of decent homes for the underprivileged, even ignoring the best available product information as seen here..........

it's the KCTMO that looks after that building and a few others like it - the majority of its members are actually tenants.

you are so full of venom I wonder how you can carry on living.

it's the KCTMO that looks after that building and a few others like it - the majority of its members are actually tenants.

 

Are you suggesting by that comment that those tenants actually control the purse strings?

 

You come across repeatedly as if you are actually one of the few in the UK, rather than one of the proletariat. That might explain your apparent intolerance bordering on hatred of those who seek to challenge the few in their class war against the common people.

 

At least your ancestors in your birth country had the decency to fight against the upper class and royal household. Those people understood politics and common decency.

 

Tom

We, who take part in the debate have to put up with their unpleasantness whether we agree with you or not.

challenge by all means but spouting insults is similar to harbouring hatred and has no place in a civilized debate.

Blimey! This call from the SMMT is a bit late in the day. Perhaps it just took a long time for the penny to drop; after all, car salesmen aren't noted as being the brightest members of society.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40332912

 

I think there is more than a little self-interest in this sudden alarm at the SMMT rather than a fear for the future of the whole nation as a result of the impending disaster. Perhaps, like many others, they have been hoping for the last year to hear some good news or to observe some positive changes in the economy.

 

It's a year since that fateful referendum and the only news is that there is no good news.

 

Tom

We, who take part in the debate have to put up with their unpleasantness whether we agree with you or not.

challenge by all means but spouting insults is similar to harbouring hatred and has no place in a civilized debate.

 

Your repeated childish responses reveal much about you, 'Woosh', none of it any good. Perhaps you should leave political discussion to the grown-ups. Please note: you call this a debate. It is not a debate; it is an internet forum allowing people to express their honest opinions. Debates operate under very specific rules, rather different to forum rules.

 

Tom

it's the KCTMO that looks after that building and a few others like it - the majority of its members are actually tenants.

you are so full of venom I wonder how you can carry on living.

 

Are you really suggesting that the tenants of the Tower block had some say in KCTMO policy? Are you serious? This is one of the richest Councils in the world with £270m in contingency funds and you must be aware by now that the tenants were unable to get the Council even to take on board their real concerns concerning the dangers and this despite the Fire Brigade Chief issuing a report detailing the dangers.

At every stage in this thread you have sought to minimise the Council's and the Government's responsibility for this tragedy, and this despite being confronted with the evidence of this. You told us that we were "cheapening" the tragedy by pointing out this evidence and were "politicising" it for our own ends. Despite the abundant evidence which had been available for years you pleaded we should wait to establish the "facts". You attempted to deflect all of the evidence above and that of our own eyes as we saw the flames travelling up the outside of the building and babies been thrown from the upper stories, by scornfully asking if the suspect fridge had been blown up by a bomb.

 

In short....you have behaved disgracefully and have yet to acknowledge that you were wrong in your responses. You do remember saying these things?

"oldtom, this thread should be about the catastrophic failure of a solution to building insulation.

Politicising it is simply wrong.

wrong place, wrong time."

"If you were the housing minister or the head of H&S, would you guarantee that none will ever burn on your watch?"

 

I would have thought that anyone who watched last night's Panorama programme would have been ashamed of such an attitude.

I would have thought that anyone who watched last night's Panorama programme would have been ashamed of such an attitude.

 

I did watch BBC panorama last night actually.

My opinion has not changed.

I believe it is an expression of self respect to wait for the facts to come out before jumping to conclusion.

You and oldtom are of course entitled to express a view, even unbalanced at that.

I did watch BBC panorama last night actually.

My opinion has not changed.

I believe it is an expression of self respect to wait for the facts to come out before jumping to conclusion.

You and oldtom are of course entitled to express a view, even unbalanced at that.

 

You watched Panorama and actually saw on screen the Fire Brigade Chief's report detailing the danger to this and other tower blocks. You saw on screen the written reply from Government Minister's refusing the water sprinkler request and you saw the fire travelling up the outside fabric of the building. You saw the tenants themselves telling of how they repeatedly warned the Council of what would happen......and yet....and yet...you say that you are waiting on the facts.

Obduracy is not compatible with self-respect in my view and your repeated attempts to reduce this tragedy to one concerning the minutia of building regulations and engineering criteria has little in common with self-respect either.

georgew, it is not obduracy, you jumped to conclusion, I wait for more facts.

Let's wait and see what the Courts have to say about this.

Oh perhaps not, in one of your previous posts, you don't believe in our justice system.

georgew, it is not obduracy, you jumped to conclusion, I wait for more facts.

Let's wait and see what the Courts have to say about this.

Oh perhaps not, in one of your previous posts, you don't believe in our justice system.

 

No fair-minded person could have reservations about our Justice system......good heavens no....perish the thought.

I mean Osgreave, Hillsborough, the wrongful imprisonment of the Scottish miners in 1984, the Guildford four and Maguire seven and the wrongful imprisonment of the Birmingham six....all of these are fitting tributes to the British Justice system. It's perhaps wrong of me to quote these cases however.....it might bolster my self-respect if I were to wait for evidence....you know...like a fair-minded person.

It bothers me when I hear people express views that major disasters such as Grenfell Tower should not be politicised. Invariably, such views come from tory supporters hoping somehow that if the voices of dissent are silenced, then they will not have to face up to their part in the political process which led to such an incompetent and uncaring government advocating and enacting their policies of evil.

 

Grenfell Tower was not just a tragic accident. It was a predictable event and is entirely the fault of decisions made by politicians at both local and national level. To level criticism at the people who effectively murdered the residents of Grenfell Tower is perfectly proper if it is possible to see with one's own eyes that decisions have been made by those with such power, which might be reasonably construed as corporate negligence leading to manslaughter. Such evidence abounds in the public domain already.

 

For those in denial, prepared to defend the appalling decisions taken by those politicians in this particular case, there are some clues here as to why this should be thoroughly investigated:

 

In February this year, ministers posted on a government website details of their ‘anti-red tape’ agenda on new-build properties.

 

In a separate report, on fire safety inspections, the Conservatives said they had been reduced for some companies from six hours to just 45 minutes.

 

The move, titled Cutting Red Tape, was part of the Tory plans to abolish a ‘health and safety’ culture that they claimed was hurting money-making businesses.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/metro.co.uk/2017/06/16/government-ministers-congratulated-themselves-for-cutting-fire-regulations-6713967/amp/

 

But it gets worse, last year ministers quietly abolished the need for newly built schools to be fitted with sprinkler systems...

 

https://www.facebook.com/AdSinistram.u.k/posts/569595306761650:0

 

And it's not just safety at a local level...

 

"Fears on how Tory party want post-Brexit bonfire of EU “red tape” on environment etc regulations."

 

http://www.airportwatch.org.uk/2017/03/fears-on-how-tory-party-want-post-brexit-bonfire-of-eu-red-tape-on-environment-etc-regulations/

 

 

Remember this?

 

 

Tom

Edited June 20, 20178 yr by oldtom

You watched Panorama and actually saw on screen the Fire Brigade Chief's report detailing the danger to this and other tower blocks. You saw on screen the written reply from Government Minister's refusing the water sprinkler request and you saw the fire travelling up the outside fabric of the building. You saw the tenants themselves telling of how they repeatedly warned the Council of what would happen......and yet....and yet...you say that you are waiting on the facts.

Obduracy is not compatible with self-respect in my view and your repeated attempts to reduce this tragedy to one concerning the minutia of building regulations and engineering criteria has little in common with self-respect either.

.. George, I am with Woosh on this matter. The failure at the tower was primarily an engineering failure. .. unless you are alleging that government ministers and their underlings deliberately choose flammable materials in the expectation that this would happen. You can accuse them of incompetence, disregard, arrogance, penny pinching etc and those accusations will have backing evidence when supported by the written reports of the professionals.. fire safety officers , fire chief, chartered surveyors.

Bide your time , get your ducks in a row and then hit them where it matters .. in court, in punitive damages, in elections, but street protest , particularly when you have public support is counterproductive.

Unless you are careful the narrative becomes about containing street violence not the underlying issue.

We all saw that the insulation, whether the top or base layers supported combustion,. This is an engineering failure, How such materials were chosen needs to be investigated, was it criminally negligent on the part of the specifing architects?, was it forced on them by budget cuts? .who authorised it . ? There is was a line of command going all the way up to the minister of the day.

We all saw that the insulation, whether the top or base layers supported combustion,.

apparently, there are loopholes in building regs allowing such material to be used if sandwiched between two sheets of metal whose thickness is not specified in the regulations.

Expect the contractors' lawyers to use this annex.

No fair-minded person could have reservations about our Justice system......good heavens no....perish the thought.

I mean Osgreave, Hillsborough, the wrongful imprisonment of the Scottish miners in 1984, the Guildford four and Maguire seven and the wrongful imprisonment of the Birmingham six....all of these are fitting tributes to the British Justice system. It's perhaps wrong of me to quote these cases however.....it might bolster my self-respect if I were to wait for evidence....you know...like a fair-minded person.

.. All the above are indictments of when politics interferes with the law, and there are plenty of other examples as well. There are also examples of where the law got it right.. the ultimate overturning of those same verdicts. In many of these cases the police were involved in the actions and committed perjury in the coverups. In an upcoming court case on the grenfell tower, they would not be implicated.

apparently, there are loopholes in building regs allowing such material to be used if sandwiched between two sheets of metal whose thickness is not specified in the regulations.

Expect the contractors' lawyers to use this annex.

... Building regs allow for a defense, but duty of care, professional responsibility can trump that. Professionals are expected to use their best judgement, expertise and knowledge in assessing risks, cannot simply relying on reading regulations from a book, and claiming to be a professional does not wash, in my opinion. The ethics committees of any of the engineering,legal, medical, or architectural bodies would support me on tha

 

It might serve as an adaquate defense for the company who physically installed the panels, provided they were working to the drawings from higher ranked certifiers

what I am still not clear about is that the firemen put out the fridge fire - if the fridge fire had spread to the cladding, it must have gone through the windows.

why didn't they notice that the cladding was also on fire?

 

were there two fires instead of one?

what I am still not clear about is that the firemen put out the fridge fire - if the fridge fire had spread to the cladding, it must have gone through the windows.

 

Ot through an extractor fan/cookerhood fan extractor?

 

I very much doubt there were two separate fires, too much of coincidence.

.