https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em4I4V-AvBo:261

 

now make it go that fast for 500 miles on 1 set of tyres

 

Aside from easily repairable electic tadpole recumbents powered exclusively by pedals and solar panel roofs, all other vehicles should become illegal immediately! (Sodium-ion batteries optional)

The expenesive cars may be unsustainable for the masses but it hasn't so far it seems put off quite a few from using them, whether owned or leased .

 

The trouble we both have is that they are mostly concentrated in the affluent south.

 

When I bought my e-car in 2018 I drove an over 500 mile round trip north to check it out. It being decades since I was last up there, I was astonished how clear the ordinary roads still were compared to here in the south.

 

If that's what the failing Northern Powerhouse does, I reckon we need a Southern Powerhouse!

.

Not that bad. It might surprise, but the average annual mileage of ALL British drivers is just 7300, just 20 miles per day.

.

My personal car use is typically only 500 - 700 miles p.a, as noted on the forum I'm prominantly a cycle user only so either panniers front and rear or oversize panniers on a cargo bike , the CF 100kg load trailer can do most of my needs. It's just bulk that is the issue such as visits to the tip.

 

My 400 mile round trip to collect my Ute proabbly the longest single journey I have made for over 20 years.

I can mitigate some of the green rubbish by one day having a large green bin for fortnightly collections though a small fee p.a is charged for the service I shall wait until I have no car and no motoring expenses then I will be a little better off.

Edited December 9, 20223 yr by Nealh

Leaseing or pcp 's will have add on charges vs out right ownership.

 

It all varies, with clauses. I very much doubt that AMIs are user repairable:

 

"MY AMI CARE TCS" PDF

 

StoreDot, which makes ultra-fast, Tesla-like 4680 battery cells, develops tech to extend batteries’ first and second life

 

https://electrek.co/2022/01/27/storedot-which-makes-ultra-fast-tesla-like-4680-battery-cells-develops-tech-to-extend-batteries-first-and-second-life/

The ultimate comparative analysis of 4680 battery vs 18650

 

https://www.tycorun.com/blogs/news/the-ultimate-comparative-analysis-of-4680-battery-vs-18650

Fully agreed, but what is so good about e-cars now is that they will be doing just that. It is clearly the policy of governments and the motor industry now they have woken up. Just look at the facts:

 

We are not going to get cheap normal e-cars, despite all the previous promises. In fact quite the opposite is happening, they are getting far more expensive and far beyond most wallets.

 

Why? Here's the answers.

 

The car industry is fed up with loss making small cars. You probably know that every original Mini ever made was at a loss and the same has long been true of all small cars. The industry has only ever made its profits from the premium up market models. That is why GM withdrew from Europe and why they virtually gave away Vauxhall and Opel brands to PSA (Peugeot-Citroen). Following that Ford announced they were also considering pulling out of Europe.

 

So now they've all come to their senses they are not repeating the mistake with e-cars so have sharply increased their prices and are eliminating cheaper models. They won't lose anything by doing that, they'll just be working less hard for the same or more profitability. When I bought my Leaf in 2018 the cheapest option was £22,000. They discontinued that and are now ending all Leaf models next year. The replacement is the Ariya model which for a reasonable spec starts around £37,000 with the premium model at £47,000. There's very few e-cars under £35k now and they are disappearing fast.

 

The mass of the public who have been buying new IC cars for from £8k to well under £20k just won't be able to afford those very high e-car prices, especially as the western world is getting poorer due to climate change measures and political trends.

 

And governments are willingly assisting by removing the e-car subsidies. No more £5000 grant to buy an e-car. No more £500 grant to buy a home charging point. No more free VED (road tax) from 2025. And the killer now is that electricity is just as dear as ic fuel for running a car.

 

As unfair and socially undesirable as it might seem, e-cars will be mainly for the minority privileged, so as ic car sales are banned and older ones wear out or suffer enforced scrappage, there will be far fewer cars left on the roads. I'd forecast at least a halving eventually.

 

In this country cycling won't be the big winner though, it will be public transport as London has already shown.

.

 

 

My concerns are that if the plan is to make EVs too expensive for the masses, why is the government continuing to spend many tens of billions on road building schemes and promoting EVs? You get what you build for. Build a system for car ownership and that's what you get. Invest in public transport and active travel infra and that's what you get. In cities like London, public transport is good, but in rural areas it is often as good as non existent. This will set a demand for cheap EVs and although western companies may decide they are going to step away from mass EV production, I can see the Chinese or maybe even the Indians stepping in to fill the gap. There are still a lot of people in the developing world with the aspiration to own a car, fuelling a massive demand. These cheap EVs are likely to then flood the UK market. Once batteries are available at a reasonable price, they will be much cheaper to build than ICE cars, which need more complex systems.

 

I only hope these Chinese or equivalent EVs are more like the Citroen Ami than a Tesla.

My concerns are that if the plan is to make EVs too expensive for the masses, why is the government continuing to spend many tens of billions on road building schemes and promoting EVs? You get what you build for. Build a system for car ownership and that's what you get. Invest in public transport and active travel infra and that's what you get. In cities like London, public transport is good, but in rural areas it is often as good as non existent. This will set a demand for cheap EVs and although western companies may decide they are going to step away from mass EV production, I can see the Chinese or maybe even the Indians stepping in to fill the gap. There are still a lot of people in the developing world with the aspiration to own a car, fuelling a massive demand. These cheap EVs are likely to then flood the UK market. Once batteries are available at a reasonable price, they will be much cheaper to build than ICE cars, which need more complex systems.

 

I only hope these Chinese or equivalent EVs are more like the Citroen Ami than a Tesla.

Tend to agree with your analysis. In the bigger picture, UK Plc is in decline and China is on the way up. UK is not able to produce what most of the world needs at the price the world will pay. And never will again. UK wages by world standards are high, and they need to be because of the housing market piggy bank.

 

The only way is down, the only question is how fast?

Tend to agree with your analysis. In the bigger picture, UK Plc is in decline and China is on the way up. UK is not able to produce what most of the world needs at the price the world will pay. And never will again. UK wages by world standards are high, and they need to be because of the housing market piggy bank.

 

The only way is down, the only question is how fast?

 

It's ok, Brexit unfettered financial services will save us all

 

I can see the Chinese or maybe even the Indians stepping in to fill the gap. There are still a lot of people in the developing world with the aspiration to own a car, fuelling a massive demand. These cheap EVs are likely to then flood the UK market. Once batteries are available at a reasonable price, they will be much cheaper to build than ICE cars, which need more complex systems.

 

I only hope these Chinese or equivalent EVs are more like the Citroen Ami than a Tesla.

 

Light quadracycles aren't legally required to have ABS, but I doubt China or India will be making those for mass market sale - more expensive versions of their ultra-cheap electric cars with ABS for the UK market, are unlikely to be manufactured by many.

My concerns are that if the plan is to make EVs too expensive for the masses, why is the government continuing to spend many tens of billions on road building schemes and promoting EVs?

 

Our road system is decades behind so needs attention anyway, but as I showed they are no longer promoting private EV ownership in the way they used to. They are promoting charging points for those who will still have EVs and need them, which includes vans of course, but all private subsidies are out.

 

In cities like London, public transport is good, but in rural areas it is often as good as non existent.

 

In London the stick came first in the form of the congestion charge. The public transport improvements followed, for example the bus fleet doubling from 4500 to over 9000. What is happening now is exactly the same, pricing drivers out of e-cars. It's a gradual process, it will be many years before all ic cars have disappeared, but meanwhile public transport will improve to meet a rising demand. It's beginning to slowly happen already.

 

This will set a demand for cheap EVs and although western companies may decide they are going to step away from mass EV production, I can see the Chinese or maybe even the Indians stepping in to fill the gap.

 

I only hope these Chinese or equivalent EVs are more like the Citroen Ami than a Tesla.

 

Governments decide what gets imported and our market is too small and expensive for these little e-cars. For example the Ami is 5000 euros in France, over £8000 here and people are backing out of orders for them as they've found out more. The cheap Chinese e-cars are also very Ami like, better equipped but not remotely like a proper car. Like this popular model called the YoYo:

 

 

A bit like a cross between a Renault Twizy and Citroen Ami, it's selling well in Italy but it isn't being sent to Britain since the Chinese consider the market not big enough to make a rhd version.

.

If policy changed to encourage uptake, then the continental prices will come here, as they did for solar PV systems when the Feed-in Tariff came along. A 4kWp system went from £14,000 to £4,000 quite fast because the market became large enough for economies of scale and competition.

Our road system is decades behind so needs attention anyway, but as I showed they are no longer promoting private EV ownership in the way they used to. They are promoting charging points for those who will still have EVs and need them, which includes vans of course, but all private subsidies are out.

 

 

Is it part of a concerted plan, or more a case of "we can't afford it now due to our incompetence and now we need to get money from wherever we can to cover our arses"?

 

 

In London the stick came first in the form of the congestion charge. The public transport improvements followed, for example the bus fleet doubling from 4500 to over 9000. What is happening now is exactly the same, pricing drivers out of e-cars. It's a gradual process, it will be many years before all ic cars have disappeared, but meanwhile public transport will improve to meet a rising demand. It's beginning to slowly happen already.

 

 

Great for London, but outside of big cities, public transport is generally incredibly poor or as good as non existent.

 

 

Governments decide what gets imported and our market is too small and expensive for these little e-cars. For example the Ami is 5000 euros in France, over £8000 here and people are backing out of orders for them as they've found out more. The cheap Chinese e-cars are also very Ami like, better equipped but not remotely like a proper car. Like this popular model called the YoYo:

 

 

A bit like a cross between a Renault Twizy and Citroen Ami, it's selling well in Italy but it isn't being sent to Britain since the Chinese consider the market not big enough to make a rhd version.

.

 

Government are not exactly known for joined up thinking or effective long term planning, or even being capable of handing contracts to the right people. It's whatever makes them look good, wins votes while filling their pockets.

 

£8000 might sound a lot, but compare it to the cost of a Tesla, or even the cheapest Kia EV which is over £30k.

 

I don't think LHD is too much of an issue. Some years back lots of people would go to the continent to pick up LHD models and import them to the UK as they were so much cheaper than buying the UK version from a dealer here. Otherwise, we'll be dependent of the likes of India's TaTa motors to make cheap RHD EVs.

If the wheelbase was shortened, isn't this potentially a UK legal quadracycle? Big battery under the seats, add a body, it'd be an easily repairable DIY Ami-like vehicle? Some on this forum could knock something like this up cheaper:

 

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Differential-Gearbox-60V-4000W-Motor-4WD_1600270619368.html

 

 

Shortened wheelbase (roof's a bit low)

 

Edited December 9, 20223 yr by guerney

Is it part of a concerted plan, or more a case of "we can't afford it now due to our incompetence and now we need to get money from wherever we can to cover our arses"?

 

 

 

Great for London, but outside of big cities, public transport is generally incredibly poor or as good as non existent.

 

 

 

Government are not exactly known for joined up thinking or effective long term planning, or even being capable of handing contracts to the right people. It's whatever makes them look good, wins votes while filling their pockets.

 

£8000 might sound a lot, but compare it to the cost of a Tesla, or even the cheapest Kia EV which is over £30k.

 

I don't think LHD is too much of an issue. Some years back lots of people would go to the continent to pick up LHD models and import them to the UK as they were so much cheaper than buying the UK version from a dealer here. Otherwise, we'll be dependent of the likes of India's TaTa motors to make cheap RHD EVs.

 

You are one of the most negative people I've come across:

 

As I said, the public transport follows. It did after the big stick in London. It will elsehere. Not as good of course due to far less customers, but still better than the present terrible situation that I'm well aware of. Maybe you dont follow trends, but government is already transferring power to local officials from private bus companies in many places. That's what happened in London that brought our improvements but they take time. What we have in London took four decades to build.

 

I haven't objected to LHD. I said the maker XED is refusing to send them here

 

I haven't said I object to an £8000 budget e-microcar, some will buy them, but you should appreciate how limiting they are. No dropping off two kids to school. No taking the recycling in the almost non existent boot. No picking up a bulky item from a store. 30 mile range in summer, 20 in winter, often with no heating.

 

We have a problem with 32.7 million cars on our roads. We are never going to get 32.7 million Amis or YoYos in them, just as we never had 32.7 million Citroen 2CVs. We are never going to get 32.7 million proper e-cars costing from £35k to over £60 k on our roads. There just isn't that sort of money about in our ever poorer times nor likely to be in the forseeable future.

 

So the number of cars on the roads will substantially reduce over time.

.

Edited December 9, 20223 yr by flecc

https://www.bluebird-electric.net/blueplanet_ecostar/kit_cars_electric_hybrid.htm

 

 

i dont think you will ever get a custom made chassis passed as road legal as it has no crash testing done on it so will be a prototype.

 

thats why it is more easy to convert a old ice car to electric or a ebike in to a motor bike frame as those are tested and can be put back on the road.

 

there must be a good profit in it or they just would not bother but most of the cost is in the labour.

 

 

https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=40&products_id=241

 

you will just have to make a battery box and add the batts as cant post them from the usa

 

if you had a 3d metal printer to make the motor mounts ect it be a piece of pi$s bar welding it together.

 

 

the motor bolts on to the transmission so you will still have gears but if you have the right bits it is the same as a diy ebike with a donor frame.

Edited December 9, 20223 yr by soundwave

If quads like the Ami become wildly sought after, some British manufacturer might start making similar, simpler, cheaper electric vehicles. There must be many old lightweight crash-tested chassis in scrapyards.

Edited December 9, 20223 yr by guerney

i would value a converted car over any production made one as you wont get screwed when out of warranty and can bus locked systems tracked 247 and subscription fees.

 

tho id check with scrapped or crash damaged cars as if there is frame damage it can only be sold as parts.

 

tho if you have a rolls Royce with bad damage but could be fixed rr class them all as right offs even if it can be repaired so insurance nightmare and parts forget it.

 

 

when you see these things stripped down there a heap of shite and parts used from every brand one part could cost 500 quid and the same part from another brand costs 50 quid made in the same place.

 

and if you brake a lambo front head light a new one is 10k each!

the motor bolts on to the transmission so you will still have gears but if you have the right bits it is the same as a diy ebike with a donor frame.

A car can be much more complicated to convert than a bike or motor bike due to all the additional auxiliary things, such as power steering, brake servo, heater/demister/air condition that are not necessary with bike.

why all that stuff is still there all you are doing is taking the ice and petrol tank out all the other stuff can run off the batt same as the motor.

 

so it can be easy or very complicated it depends or the car and space it has but there are company's doing this so must make a profit but most goes on labour and r and d and custom parts that will need to be made for each car.

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002247242962.html

 

To covert a Piaggio Ape perhaps? They're one of the few motorcycle engined vans still in production.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_Ape