Not true, you cannot read the law from such general guidance notes. Technical document EN15194 sets out how the power is rated, and that it is rated by the manufacturer and that it only applies to complete pedelecs, not stand alone motors

Thanks flecc, it felt like a stretch hence "The wording here...". So, how do we know when we've reached the bottom of the well?

 

You commented here [1] on not trying to understand the law from government guidance pages, and identified the separate parts of the law. How can we tell that the 1983 + 2015 EPAC Regulations, which restrict power and refer to [2] to define it, are only guidance notes, whereas the 168/2013 Type Approval Regulation is authoritative in restricting power and EN15194 is authoritative in defining it (by means of rating methods)? The EPAC Regs refer to the RTAs 1984 & 1988, which made this lay reader think these Regs might be the authoritative implementation.

 

Is there a precedence chart? It's our individual responsibility to know the law and keep the "blind eye" situation going.

 

[1] https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/a-quick-question-about-the-15-5mph-assisted-legal-limit.43401/post-651976

[2] power with the same meaning as in Regulation (EU) No 168/2013(a)

Edited April 18, 20233 yr by AntonyC

Thanks flecc, it felt like a stretch hence "The wording here...". So, how do we know when we've reached the bottom of the well?

 

You commented here [1] on not trying to understand the law from government guidance pages, and identified the separate parts of the law. How can we tell that the 1983 + 2015 EPAC Regulations, which restrict power and refer to [2] to define it, are only guidance notes, whereas the 168/2013 Type Approval Regulation is authoritative in restricting power and EN15194 is authoritative in defining it (by means of rating methods)? The EPAC Regs refer to the RTAs 1984 & 1988, which made this lay reader think these Regs might be the authoritative implementation.

 

Is there a precedence chart? It's our individual responsibility to know the law and keep the "blind eye" situation going.

 

[1] https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/a-quick-question-about-the-15-5mph-assisted-legal-limit.43401/post-651976

[2] power with the same meaning as in Regulation (EU) No 168/2013(a)

 

A pedelec rider doesn't need to look into all the detail of these laws, they are there for designers and manufacturers to assist them in producing legal machines and to earn official approval such as the CE marking.

 

As I ended the above link. It's actually all very simple, just do what is allowed, nothing more.

 

What is allowed is spelled out in the guidance notes, but if creating your own technically illegal pedelec by using a motor kit, the exemption in the type approval regulation says all you need to know in minimal words:

 

Pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h (which is 15.5 mph).

 

So if you use a kit or motor and controller combination that is sold as 250 watts and marked as such, motor only used restricted to that assist speed limit and only when pedalling, the law will never trouble you.

 

Those are the limits, the bottom of the well as you put it. With two exceptions, anything else makes it a motor vehicle liable to registration etc.

 

The exceptions are:

 

1) Being able to have a fully operational throttle up to 6kph to assist starting from rest. Some pedelecs and kits include the necessary.

 

2) Being able to have a fully operational throttle up to 15.5mph if the pedelec is taken though single vehicle approval at an approved testing station to become an L1e-A class motor vehicle. If in all other respects it complies with pedelec law, the DfT and police will consider it still a pedelec and not liable for motor vehicle registration, a uniquely British only concession.

.

Being a newbie here, and a newbie to all things electric with wheels, I am going to do a seemingly quite foolish things and put my head "in the lion's mouth"..... (Restraint has never been my strongest virtue. - Assuming I have any at all? )

 

This thread has at least two daughters, the problem with an illegal bike being sold to an unsuspecting customer, and what constitutes a 'legal' bicycle - as opposed to an illegal one. I'd like to comment on the illegal sale first....

 

When e-scooters are sold to the general public (and I sense flecc's heckles rising as he reads this), there is ALWAYS a broad and obvious indication these can only be used on private land with the owners permission. Signs on the scooters, larger signs in the stores where they are sold. The conditions under which they can be used, is made plain. Otherwise there might be a need for "buyer beware", situation in a retail environment, which generally, there isn't. This would be different to buying an unmotorized bicycle, where there is no special knowledge needed for its use. Rather like buying a pair of shoes, or a pair of jeans. No specialised knowledge is needed to make the purchasing decision, other than 'does it fit?'

 

I've not studied law, but I know a little of contract law. It seems to me that unless the buyer was made aware the e-bike in question, is actually a motorised vehicle in law, needing to be type approved, taxed, insures and periodically MOT tested, with an appropriate license to ride in public spaces, the buyer has not been sold what he believed he bought. TS might rightly argue, he has been mis-sold his bike.

 

The legal representation provided by his house insurer, also seems to have short changed him. "No assets"? Really? Trading name and current stock? As for not being able to prove the "miss-sold status", I think a judge seeing advertising like this might take a dim view of whether the purchase was as innocent as the seller might claim;

 

 

 

Driving ban? Speeding ban? Have you got one of these?

 

Don’t take the risk. What you need is a Powerful Electric Bike from Wing eBikes.

 

Once you have ridden a Wing electric bike you’ll know that you have the right form of transport.

 

A drink driving ban or speeding ban has been the downfall of many people and still continues to disrupt people’s lives.

 

Don’t risk it.

 

You’ll never want to ride anything else. We know this to be true.

 

Read our feedback…….

 

One last thing…….

 

No Licence. No Tax. No Insurance. No Fuel. No Repairs. No MOT. No Parking Costs

 

“Wing eBikes are AWESOME”

 

 

With all the possibilities of a TS visit as indicated with a solicitors letter, and court costs eluded to, the return of the e-bike might be the cheapest option for the seller. Either way, I think not only should Trading Standards be advised, so should the police. These are no different to electric mopeds, which need a license to use on British roads. What the seller is offering is a route to thwart a driving ban, disguised as a bicycle - that isn't actually a bicycle.

 

I also think there might be a good legal case for the "miss-selling" and if the bike was bought on a credit card, I would suggest that could also be a route to some financial recovery.

 

Just for the record, sellers T+C's can NOT be used to obscure or remove buyers rights as buyers. For example, if I bought a pair of shoes from a seller with T+C's that said "all sales are final" but on getting home with the shoes the box contained different sized shoes, that sale would NOT be final.

 

Edit to add clarity.

Edited April 30, 20232 yr by FastFreddy2

When e-scooters are sold to the general public there is ALWAYS a broad and obvious indication these can only be used on private land with the owners permission. Signs on the scooters, larger signs in the stores where they are sold.

 

But not always on the internet. There the sellers play fast and loose, even the ones with store outlets as well.

 

Halfords in particular are being utterly cynical in my opinion, knowing owned ones are always illegal in public but obviously attempting to enforce e-scooter legality for all by swamping the roads with them to achieve a fait accompli.

.

What is and what isn't an e-bike?

 

This is a great question and there is only one answer ...... Is there?

 

Taken from Wiki. All copyrights acknowledged.

 

A pedelec (from pedal electric cycle) or EPAC (electronically power assisted cycle), is a type of low-powered electric bicycle where the rider's pedalling is assisted by a small electric motor. However, unlike some other types of e-bikes, pedelecs are classified as conventional bicycles in many countries by road authorities rather than as a type of electric moped. Pedelecs include an electronic controller which cuts power to the motor when the rider is not pedalling or when a certain speed – usually 25 km/h (16 mph) or 32 km/h (20 mph) – is reached. Pedelecs are useful for people who ride in hilly areas or in strong headwinds. While a pedelec can be any type of bicycle, a pedelec city bike is very common. A conventional bicycle can be converted to a pedelec with the addition of the necessary parts, e.g., motor, battery, etc.

 

Many jurisdictions classify pedelecs as bicycles as opposed to mopeds or motorcycles. More powerful e-bikes, such as the S-Pedelecs and power-on-demand e-bikes (those whose motors can provide assistance regardless of whether the rider is pedalling) are often classified as mopeds or even motorcycles with the rider thus subject to the regulations of such motor vehicles, e.g., having a license and a vehicle registration, wearing a helmet, etc.

 

 

From what I've read in this thread, I'd say the Wiki intro is a fair representation of what is generally accepted in in Pedelecs. Feel free to say otherwise of course.

 

 

Some of my background is in firearms, and there are some comparisons to be made between the two. Generally speaking, anything with a trigger that goes 'bang' in the UK is illegal. There are some circumstances where air pistols and air rifles, below their respective power ranges, can be used unlicensed. Anything and everything else, needs a license. Any equipment when purchased from the authorised seller, has to be tested (proofed) as should any modifications to it. Sound familiar?

 

It's not easy to see if an air rifle has more power than it should have, as with e-bikes. It's not until something bad happens, and the police get involved that equipment is tested, and if the test is failed, there's a whole world of trouble going to come down on the owner. At present, I wouldn't be surprised if e-bike owners, along with e-scooter owners, settle for confiscation over a prosecution since riding either on public highways is pretty indefensible. Any form of mitigation won't see you getting off a successful prosecution. Cheaper for the police, less time in court, and no criminal record for the owner. A win/win/win from enforcing the law point of view.

 

Regardless to the rights and wrongs of British legislation, I think too much was done too late. I don't necessarily mean just e-bikes, but e-scooters too.

 

E-scooters and e-bikes are, and will remain, a fact of life. Anyone who thinks otherwise, is obviously related to Canute. The tide of electrically powered personal transport will reach if it hasn't already, tidal proportions. Once small, high amperage batteries were possible, (thank you mobile phones), e-powered person transport was always going to happen. Market opportunity is enormous.

 

The British government should have limited the power of any e-vehicle being sold and put the onus on the seller for compliance. If there was a need for greater power, for purely off-road vehicles, those vehicles should have had 'approved' status (type approval perhaps or individual approval), with a license for use tied to that motorised vehicle.

 

With e-scooters being imported by the likes of ChAmazon and maybe Ebay by the thousands, the potential for post-purchase policing was always, is always going to be impossible. That cat is well and truly, out of the bag. With high street retailers now selling them openly, I think it safe to say the British government can do nothing about it now. At best there can only be mitigation, and that comes via confiscation during local purges, or through prosecution after a serious accident. Though even the prosecution through an accident seems difficult to prove in law.

 

What I'm reading in this thread is that there are in law, allowances for 'pedelecs', rather than what might be called e-bikes? With e-bikes given to mean anything outside the power envelope provided by legislation.....

 

My conclusion from reading this thread is that for most of us, the e-motor assistance power levels offered within the UK legislation seems to be perfectly adequate. While I don't yet have a motor on any of my bikes, I know that 10mph is a reasonably good speed for me, though I don't ride on the road. It's also significantly faster than I'm able to ride up long hills after an hours riding in countryside, especially through mud. I can see the need for a 'boost' in some situations, and what I can gather is the systems available, can provide for that too. My mate with a Levo de-restricted his bike and his first motor didn't last long after that, (though neither did his second motor which he didn't de-restrict). The bigger issue for the consumer seems to be reliability?

 

While it might seem like I'm being critical, I can see the pleasure and purpose in higher powered e-bikes, and I think there's also a case for making their use a little bit easier than sing what could be exhaustive testing?

 

https://leva-eu.com/l1e-a-category-powered-cycles-impedes-innovation-and-technological-development-of-electric-bicycles/

 

As power availability increases, as reliability increases, there might be a case for periodic (safety) testing for higher powered two or three wheeled e-vehicles, but it seems at the moment, there is very little motivation to take on large organisations like the EU, to allow higher categories with reasonable speeds and suitable equipment levels without the cost involved in combustion engined type approval. At the moment, the government seems to treat pedelecs as bicycles (rightly), and combustion engined vehicles as motor vehicles, but no obvious slots in between that are easily recognisable.

 

Within my lifetime (hopefully within my lifetime), combustion engined vehicles sales are scheduled to be banned in the UK. I can't afford a £40,000 electric car, and morally I won't pay for one either. (I bought my first home for less.) What is the alternative? In my view, 4 wheeled covered cargo bikes, but they won't be powered by 250w motors, and if they are, they won't be lasting very long.

 

My belief is "e" transport is the future. Maybe using car or lorry based lead-acid batteries as the Chinese on what are e-mopeds, or something more substantial. What doesn't seem to be readily available, is a reasonably priced e-moped grade vehicle, within current legislation that can be used by commuters at say 30mph, allowing them to keep up with 'in town' traffic. Certainly nothing with 3 or 4 wheels. One or two might be thinking what about pedals? What about getting home with a flat battery? I'm asking the questions, not providing all the answers.

Halfords in particular are being utterly cynical in my opinion, knowing owned ones are always illegal in public but obviously attempting to enforce e-scooter legality for all by swamping the roads with them to achieve a fait accompli.

.

 

In their defence, I think Halfords, Decathlon (if they sell them), Go Outdoors (if they sell them) are selling into a market where there is a ready demand. I'm pretty sure they followed "hover-boards" in terms of interest from younger consumers. There are many practical reasons for children having access to e-scooters.

 

I don't know that's true of some of the high powered ones I've seen, with e-scooter users going faster than the other road traffic, as if they were riding an unregistered motorbike, which I suppose legally, they are.

In their defence, I think Halfords, Decathlon (if they sell them), Go Outdoors (if they sell them) are selling into a market where there is a ready demand. I'm pretty sure they followed "hover-boards" in terms of interest from younger consumers.

 

E-scooters are all unregistered motorbikes, which is just one of the reasons I am so critical of Halfords. They fully know that even if ownership is permitted, they have to be ridden on roads by holders of an appropriate driving licence with appropriate third party insurance, clearly ruling out the younger users.

 

There are many practical reasons for children having access to e-scooters.

 

Even if the law allowed them, given our very sub-standard road safety conditions and e-scooter fundamental instability, I don't think there are any practical reasons for children having access to e-scooters, however theoretically desirable and convenient that might be.

.

Even if the law allowed them, given our very sub-standard road safety conditions and e-scooter fundamental instability, I don't think there are any practical reasons for children having access to e-scooters, however theoretically desirable and convenient that might be.

.

 

The same could be said of ladders.

 

You know significantly more people are killed each year fishing, falling down stairs, falling off ladders, falling off horses, than are killed each year on scooters, whether motorised or not.

 

There is never a call to ban horse riding, nor ban fishing, nor ban stairs, nor ban ladders. I don't know the exact figures, but I'd be surprised if more people died on scooters, than construction workers. Should we stop building? And don't get me started on motor vehicles, which cause significantly more death than most other occupational causes combined. In fact more pedestrians are killed each year on our roadways, than (e)scooter riders, or those that have collisions caused with inappropriate scooter use. The same is true with (e)bicycles of any form.

 

If UK law was strictly followed and enforced, ANY child riding a bicycle is supposed to ride it on the roadway. How should we deal with 5 or 6 year olds being forced to ride in heavy traffic? That's why the police don't enforce the completely out-of-date law created in 1835, legislated 60 years before motor vehicles as we know them were seen on roadways.

 

E-scooters used at kick-scooter speeds are perfectly safe for everyone. I personally lost a friend who tripped and died having stuck his head as he fell against a lampost. Should we be calling for the banning of lamp posts? Anything, and everything is potentially lethal is mis-used. Yesterday I read about another baby drowning in the bath. Ban baths? Sadly, some people have to learn how dangerous the world can be the hard way.

 

I was going to conclude with some facile comment like; "I haven't researched figures, but I'd be surprised to find more people died from e-scooter misuse than choking on food", then I thought - better check .......

 

https://cesafety.co.uk/news/choking-deaths-report/

 

3-400 people a year die through choking on their food. Ban food?

 

There are much, much bigger problems with UK road safety, than e-scooters, which ought to be at the bottom of any government "to do" list. At the top, should be a repeal or relative amendment to that dangerous 1835 law.

There is never a call to ban horse riding, nor ban fishing, nor ban stairs, nor ban ladders.

 

The point being that these already exist. They are not justification for introducing a new, formerly unknown but certain very high risk.

 

E-scooters used at kick-scooter speeds are perfectly safe for everyone.

 

Agreed, but only at those very low speeds on pavements.

 

KIck scooting with extreme effort doesn't get to even half the 15 mph of an e-scooter, most of the time it's 4 to 6 mph. If you doubt that, with a bicycle having a front wheel measuring speedo, lift the front wheel off the ground and try flicking it along by hand. You'll be hard pushed to get far beyond 4 mph registered, something I've demonstrated to others with much surprise. Kicking a scooter along has similar results, safe on small wheels.

 

Very few people have the remotest inkling about the complex relationship between the steering speed and wheel size on two wheelers, or even that steering has speed. The very small wheels and narrow handlebars on most e-scooters at speed are fundamentally at the limits of human control ability. It might seem a strange comparison but true, it's why variable canard wings on aircraft had to wait until computer control was advanced enough to substantially better human reaction times.

 

So if you want e-scooters for anyone, have them limited to 8 mph maximum drive speed, with a minimum wheel diameter appropriate to that speed, an adequate brake, and only to be used on pavements with care for pedestrians.

 

But absolutely not with any size tiny wheels at 15mph on roads.

.

Edited April 30, 20232 yr by flecc

3-400 people a year die through choking on their food. Ban food?

 

Fair point.

 

If you banned food and given time, the number of deaths by choking would fall to zero.

 

thats the problem and kids just dont look where there going tho i gave one a good whack with one of my retard rammers last week

 

was following a Deliveroo rider down the alleyway today going 25mph and was ringing his $hitty little bell and not one person moved a inc and was riding no handed so all over the place so when i got my chance went in to race mode and over took him on the grass going 35mph and cut straight back on to the path bet he never seen a bosch bike do that

The point being that these already exist. They are not justification for introducing a new, formerly unknown but certain very high risk.

 

 

So if you want e-scooters for anyone, have them limited to 8 mph maximum drive speed, with a minimum wheel diameter appropriate to that speed, an adequate brake, and only to be used on pavements with care for pedestrians.

 

But absolutely not with any size tiny wheels at 15mph on roads.

.

 

I doubt anyone on the planet can hope to turn back or stop the tide of technology advancing, and new life threatening technology harming us foolish humans. E-scooters vs mobile phones? A grain of sand compared to Bondi beach.

 

This is not 'office safe' (turn down speakers)

 

"Self managing" fully autonomous electric cars? Someone spent too much time watching Total Recall.

 

I've already agreed there SHOULD have been legislation pointed at suppliers, not owners. It worked with motor bikes. And tiny wheels, aka inappropriate sized wheel on e-scooters, completely crazy, but originally sized to aid being carried. 8mph is plenty, if not too fast. But absolutely not on public roads EVER. Pathways, grass verge, but no-one should be on the road unless the inside a vehicle with airbags, or on a motorbike with every bit of body protection available. Modern roads are for motorised transport capable of speeds in excess of 60mph, unless they happen to be novice motorbikes that are restricted.

 

Some time ago I started pricing up one of these to include in a conversion .....

 

 

 

 

But the buy price is higher than a bicycle with a better (way better) spec'. And if it doesn't have disc brakes all around, I'm not using it anyway.

Edited April 30, 20232 yr by FastFreddy2

Fair point.

 

If you banned food and given time, the number of deaths by choking would fall to zero.

 

Now this, had me laughing out loud.

I doubt anyone on the planet can hope to turn back or stop the tide of technology advancing, and new life threatening technology harming us foolish humans. E-scooters vs mobile phones? A grain of sand compared to Bondi beach.

 

This is not 'office safe' (turn down speakers)

 

"Self managing" fully autonomous electric cars? Someone spent too much time watching Total Recall.

 

I've already agreed there SHOULD have been legislation pointed at suppliers, not owners. It worked with motor bikes. And tiny wheels, aka inappropriate sized wheel on e-scooters, completely crazy, but originally sized to aid being carried. 8mph is plenty, if not too fast.

 

Some time ago I started pricing up one of these to include in a conversion .....

 

 

[ATTACH type=full" alt="51390]51390[/ATTACH]

 

 

But the buy price is higher than a bicycle with a better (way better) spec'. And if it doesn't have disc brakes all around, I'm not using it anyway.

 

it only goes 90mph and free postage

[ATTACH type=full" alt="51391]51391[/ATTACH]

 

it only goes 90mph and free postage

 

Any sane person, would rather spend that money on a motorbike.

Any sane person, would rather spend that money on a motorbike.

but you have to tax and insure that. that thing might cost 10k but unless you take the pi$$ on it round here no one will care.

 

i can hit 40 and no ones bothered at that speed as glued to there phones anyway as so used to it now with all the scooters and ebikes delivering food from the center of Gloucester at night you need a fkn crash helmet just to walk about.

 

bafang had a fight with a seagull and got its ass ran over but went back to take a pic on the way home but some one nicked it

I doubt anyone on the planet can hope to turn back or stop the tide of technology advancing, and new life threatening technology harming us foolish humans. E-scooters vs mobile phones? A grain of sand compared to Bondi beach.

 

This is not 'office safe' (turn down speakers)

 

"Self managing" fully autonomous electric cars? Someone spent too much time watching Total Recall.

 

I've already agreed there SHOULD have been legislation pointed at suppliers, not owners. It worked with motor bikes. And tiny wheels, aka inappropriate sized wheel on e-scooters, completely crazy, but originally sized to aid being carried. 8mph is plenty, if not too fast. But absolutely not on public roads EVER. Pathways, grass verge, but no-one should be on the road unless the inside a vehicle with airbags, or on a motorbike with every bit of body protection available. Modern roads are for motorised transport capable of speeds in excess of 60mph, unless they happen to be novice motorbikes that are restricted.

 

Some time ago I started pricing up one of these to include in a conversion .....

 

 

[ATTACH type=full" alt="51390]51390[/ATTACH]

 

 

But the buy price is higher than a bicycle with a better (way better) spec'. And if it doesn't have disc brakes all around, I'm not using it anyway.

 

All fully agreed, and as I've long predicted, autonomous electric cars are turning out to be no more than a bad joke. I have one with level 2/3 automation that I thoroughly tested in the early months with it. I found far too many circumstances that caught it out, making it dangerous for me and others on the road, so I have it almost all switched out of action.

 

The technologies are still decades behind what is necessary. Those who were pushing the hardest to introduce them are now getting increasing shy on the subject as they realise how difficult it really is. We'll still be doing all the driving on roads for many decades to come.

 

E-scooter speed I agree is still a bit too fast at 8 mph, but I seized on that speed since Japan has so much experience of it. There bicycles in cities often have to take to the pavements by law; limited to 13kph/8mph maximum then, and it seems to work very well.

.

The technologies are still decades behind what is necessary. Those who were pushing the hardest to introduce them are now getting increasing shy on the subject as they realise how difficult it really is. We'll still be doing all the driving on roads for many decades to come.

 

E-scooter speed I agree is still a bit too fast at 8 mph, but I seized on that speed since Japan has so much experience of it. There bicycles in cities often have to take to the pavements by law; limited to 13kph/8mph maximum then, and it seems to work very well.

.

 

"Amen" to all that.

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/gloucester-news/three-teens-arrested-after-string-8354091

 

This is not 'office safe' (turn down speakers)

 

 

This tuktuk's TTP (Time To Pankcake) is extremely short... quite terrifying seeing it and the tuktuk's driver being dragged under the rear wheels and crushed flat, considering how us cyclists are increasingly surrounded by ever larger and heavier electric cars reliant on software.