https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/pages/terms-and-returns-information

 

DISTANCE & OFF-PREMISES CONTRACTS

The following sections only apply to distance and off-premises B2C contracts. All on-premises and B2B sales, including all bikes supplied under the Cycle to Work Scheme, are final. Goods purchased with finance are subject to the agreement with the finance provider.

 

Please note that if you wish to exercise your right to return goods under these provisions items must be NEW and UNUSED in order to receive a full refund. The retail sales value of a used item is generally 60% of the new and unused value. THIS APPLIES EVEN IF A BIKE HAS BEEN RIDDEN ONLY ONCE. Please therefore ensure that the item has not been used at all unless you are likely to receive only 60% of what you paid for it when new. Please USE A BOX and proper packing materials. Items damaged due to careless packaging will not be refunded. Sales of items specially ordered, including specially ordered sizes, or customised to customers requirements are final & may not be returned.

 

Other than for defective items we do not accept returns of tools unless they are returned unopened and in their original packaging.

 

one guy bought a bike he took it out the box in his living room found it was the wrong size and took him 6 months to get all his money back and lucky he got it on his cc.

P.S. Anyone want to buy a 1500W 48V eMTB, one careful owner and just 8 miles on the clock from new. Immaculate condition etc.

 

What was it like to ride? If the rest of the bike is acceptable quality, would it be worth starting a thread investigating possibilities with the experts for swapping in a legal 48V 250W hub motored wheel kit? You're going to lose hundreds selling it.

Edited March 30, 20233 yr by guerney

What was it like to ride? If the rest of the bike is acceptable quality, would it be worth starting a thread investigating possibilities with the experts for swapping in a legal 48V 250W hub motored wheel? You're going to lose hundreds selling it.

 

And the controller.

There's not much information on their website, if this is their website:

 

https://wing-ebikes.co.uk/?page_id=9901

What was it like to ride? If the rest of the bike is acceptable quality, would it be worth starting a thread investigating possibilities with the experts for swapping in a legal 48V 250W hub motored wheel kit? You're going to lose hundreds selling it.

you still dont get it most kits and bike with hub motors will let you change the power and speed settings and if that is the case it is classed as a off road switch or off road mode and the fact you are able to do this means it can never be road legal even if set at 15mph speed limit.

 

under 15mph a bike can pull 3kw but not above 15mph so the power of the motor is not the problem it is the controller and the ability to change its settings.

 

try find a locked controller for a hub motor every one that did make them went bust

 

so the end user must have no way at all to change the controllers settings if i remove my dongle there is no way for me to do anything to it bar rip out the controller and bms and use a phase runner controller.

 

at the end of the day ignorance is bliss the law is a total waste of space it is not enforced in anyway at all and if plod pulled over a reckless ebike rider delivering food to a disabled person go down with the cps nothing will happen because it wont be in the public interest to prosecute them and make them look like fools in the msm as fkn everywhere now.

you still dont get it most kits and bike with hub motors will let you change the power and speed settings and if that is the case it is classed as a off road switch or off road mode and the fact you are able to do this means it can never be road legal even if set at 15mph speed limit.

 

under 15mph a bike can pull 3kw but not above 15mph so the power of the motor is not the problem it is the controller and the ability to change its settings.

 

try find a locked controller for a hub motor every one that did make them went bust

 

so the end user must have no way at all to change the controllers settings

 

 

I think that one has been trundled over repeatdley on this and other threads:

 

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/pedelec-law-the-details.37594/

but that is the law, but no one gives a crap, if i remove my dongle and get pissed well there you go and im still not dead even with it

 

and working on a shunt mod for the bosch controller

 

What was it like to ride? If the rest of the bike is acceptable quality, would it be worth starting a thread investigating possibilities with the experts for swapping in a legal 48V 250W hub motored wheel kit? You're going to lose hundreds selling it.

Thanks for the suggestion, it's a great looking bike and is a good ride, he acceleration is awesome! It also has a number of extras and an uprated battery so it cost a fair bit more tan the list price. The issue is, do I lose a few hundred on selling it or spend a few hundred having the modifications you suggest carried out? I certainly couldn't do it myself.

 

There's also the fact that, as much as I liked the bike, I'm pretty siillusioned with the whole business. maybe wiping the slate clean by getting rid of it is te best way for my peace of mind. I don't know but I'm not rushing to make a decission.

Secondly kits don't exist in law since the pedelec law only applies to complete manufactured machines. Since every type of motorised vehicle has to have a specific approval to be on the road, private kit conversions are technically illegal. In common with some other powered bicycle aspects they have become a "blind eye" subject throughout the EU, ignored so long as they comply to the rules for manufactured pedelecs. When they have fully acting throttles they are not compliant of course.

 

Apologies for dredging this up. Is anybody aware of a case when this has been challenged? I can imagine a case involving say an accident and resulting injury and a keenness to put doubt on the roadworthiness and legality if the bike as it happens to be a kit? You can see how tempting it might be to try and conflate a kit bike that complies with the rules for a manufactured pedelec with that of a 1500w dinner plate hub motor conversion. 'Pedestrian killed by illegal ebike rider'...

 

I know there are many areas like this. Finding standards approved lights and reflectors isn't easy (my lights and rear reflectors are kite marked), all those bike without pedel reflectors - try finding standards approved pedal reflectors... I doubt many cyclists get into bother for either of the above if they have made a reasonable effort with lights and visibility, although I am aware of cases where statements like one rear red light isn't sufficient to be seen so the cyclist had it coming...

 

C

The only big case that went to court/trial was the guy who hit a pedestrian in Dalston , London. The case wasn't based on his illegal bike which wasn't contested, but a manslaughter charge which was proven not guilty.

 

Tbh if anything bikes likely just get confiscated and maybe the odd person might get a fine but news of cases tend to be very scant.

Apologies for dredging this up. Is anybody aware of a case when this has been challenged? I can imagine a case involving say an accident and resulting injury and a keenness to put doubt on the roadworthiness and legality if the bike as it happens to be a kit? You can see how tempting it might be to try and conflate a kit bike that complies with the rules for a manufactured pedelec with that of a 1500w dinner plate hub motor conversion. 'Pedestrian killed by illegal ebike rider'...

 

I know there are many areas like this. Finding standards approved lights and reflectors isn't easy (my lights and rear reflectors are kite marked), all those bike without pedel reflectors - try finding standards approved pedal reflectors... I doubt many cyclists get into bother for either of the above if they have made a reasonable effort with lights and visibility, although I am aware of cases where statements like one rear red light isn't sufficient to be seen so the cyclist had it coming...

 

C

 

No known cases at all on the grounds of being an unapproved vehicle. The authorities are only concerned with the key usage laws being observed, 250 watts continuous power rating and 15.5 mph power assist limit.

 

If they are observed, these grey areas are ignored here in the UK:

 

Being a kit built pedelec.

 

Having a fully operational throttle.

 

The first is also ignored in mainland Europe, but some parts crack down hard on full throttles and other illegal modifications.

 

If the kit bike question was raised for a potential legal action, I'm confident on past evidence that the DfT would kill the case. There are too many of them on the road to suddenly make them all illegal, so precedence would win once more.

.

Edited April 16, 20233 yr by flecc

No known cases at all on the grounds of being an unapproved vehicle. The authorities are only concerned with the key usage laws being observed, 250 watts continuous power rating and 15.5 mph power assist limit.

Well, this is indeed comforting and had hoped this was the case. For what it is worth, from a personal perspective 15.5 mph cut off and a continuous 250w rating are no problem for me and I feel precisely zero inclination or need to step outside of this. I have not installed the throttle either, tried it momentarily and didn't add anything for me - I do understand why other riders may want a throttle though.

 

As somebody with a very nasty anxiety disorder, I was getting myself in quite a flap (completely irrational I know, but it is a psychiatric illness). There are still lots of anxieties regarding cycling and other day to day activities for me but I hope to put this particular one to bed.

 

Incidentally, I drive infrequently due to anxiety, and public transport is non existent around here in a rural location so my bike gives me a degree of freedom that is valuable to me.

Edited April 16, 20233 yr by Bogmonster666

Well, this is indeed comforting and had hoped this was the case. For what it is worth, from a personal perspective 15.5 mph cut off and a continuous 250w rating are no problem for me

 

Nor for me, the pedelec law always suited me since I come from the era when for over 150 years everyone had cycled at around 10 mph and 15 mph was considered fast. It's only in Britain since the late 1980s that the current barmy 20+mph cycling speeds have been thought normal.

 

You don't need to worry about the minor technicalities in the law. During the 1990s and 2000s a number of our police forces used pedelecs and they all broke the UK maximum assist power and throttle laws at that time. They and the DfT knew it and knew the suppliers knew it, but neither did anything about it for 13 years. And even then they decided the older machines were now legal as they were.

.

Hi TwoWheels, have you tried to get redress through your payment method? If you paid by credit card then your purchase may technically be from your credit card provider who should be able to help. If you paid by PayPal they may be able to help. Worth a try.

Well, this is indeed comforting and had hoped this was the case. For what it is worth, from a personal perspective 15.5 mph cut off and a continuous 250w rating are no problem for me and I feel precisely zero inclination or need to step outside of this. I have not installed the throttle either, tried it momentarily and didn't add anything for me - I do understand why other riders may want a throttle though.

 

As somebody with a very nasty anxiety disorder, I was getting myself in quite a flap (completely irrational I know, but it is a psychiatric illness). There are still lots of anxieties regarding cycling and other day to day activities for me but I hope to put this particular one to bed.

I find your situation extremely annoying, not from you but the cause of this. There is often misinformation spread on this forum about throttles and motor power that not only causes people anxiety, but also prevents them from having the system they need or desire.

 

Let's get this straight. There is no law. rule or regulation that disallows the fitting of a throttle, neither is there anything to prevent its use. The only rule that applies is that power must stop when the pedals are not rotating. There is even nothing to say how fast or slow the pedals must rotate, nor how much effort you put into them.

 

There are three common ways that a throttle can work:

1. Twist and go (Chinese zero start). This is not allowed without a special certificate.

2. 4 mph start assist, where the throttle works up to 4 mph without pedalling, then does nothing. That's allowed by all regulations.

3 . Regulates the power only when pedalling (non-zero start up). In this case the throttle determines the bikes speed, like it would if it were twist and go, but only when the pedals are rotating. That's allowed too.

 

Some controllers can combine 2 and 3, which is very useful for a rider that's impeded from normal pedalling. You open up the throttle, the bike starts, you rotate the pedals slowly with your feet and the throttle continues to increase the speed of the bike according to the throttle position. That's completely legal too. It's effectively twist and go, but you just have to do a bit of air pedalling to make it work above 4 mph. The first Storck Radaar was like that and so are some Eskutas. To clarify the pedals and their rotation speed. The rule that applies is that the bike must be capable of being pedalled at a safe speed without assisted power, not that you have to do it.

 

Next point is motor power. There is no law, rule or regulation about how much power you can have. Changing your controller to a 30A one and increasing your battery size and voltage (not above 48v) is completely legal. The only rule is on what motors you can use, not how you use them. The motor must be "RATED" at no more than 250w. That's it. "Rated" actually has no meaning when it comes to ebikes, but you need to prove your innocence if you're accused, so you need the motor to have a manufacturer's stamp or label that says 250w, or prove that you bought it from a listing that showed 250w. Most motors marked or listed as 250w can run happily at 1000w, and that's completely legal. I know one that's used all over Londan that can run at 3.5KW and is completely only legal, but was tested by the police and released without charge after its innocence was proven by the label.

 

Finally, what does 1000w mean when I mention it above? As ebike geeks we normally calculate power as volts x amps from the battery, but that isn't how much power the bike makes, nor what's used in any regulation. Actual power from the motor would be in the range of 60% to 70% of the power coming from the battery, and will go much lower if you let it slow down out of its efficient rpm range. It takes about 250w to propel an average bike and rider to 25 km/hr without pedalling, so if you have your bike limited to that speed, you can argue that it's a 250w bike, which is probably how any manufacturer can get away with rating their motors as 250w, regardless of how much power they consume.

 

Scaremongerers please get it right and stop scaremongering.

@Moderators: Is there / can we have a Technical Reference forum in which to "pin" posts such as this?

 

As flecc says "the law is very simple. i.e. no power above 15.5 mph, power only when pedalling, maximum power rating 250 watts." But the details saneagle provides, as he says, show the scope for making legal pedelecs that fit a wide variety of users' needs. I feel sure the regulations are intended to offer that breadth.

you can have a 3000w motor with a limit of 15mph at 250w but it has to be fixed and no end user can change the speed limit or amps for a faster top speed above that.

 

any controller that lets you change any settings like this means it is not road legal under uk law as it stands as must be fixed and unchangeable buy any end user or get a dongle but it wont give you any more power amps wise like with my bosch motor as i cant change any power settings

 

might be able to shunt mod the controller tho lol.

 

 

at the end of the day i have had my bike with a dongle for the last ten years and no one gives a crap not even plod unless you take the piss and ride round in halo armor

 

 

 

and dont forget you can buy any bike from ebike shop that wins the best award every year for sales because they fit dongles and honer the warranty for the motors on the bikes they sell.

Edited April 18, 20233 yr by soundwave

you can have a 3000w motor with a limit of 15mph at 250w but it has to be fixed and no end user can change the speed limit or amps for a faster top speed above that.

 

any controller that lets you change any settings like this means it is not road legal under uk law as it stands as must be fixed and unchangeable buy any end user

 

And here we go again. By the above definition the Tonsheng and Bafang mid-drive kits and probably many hub kits allow you to change cutoff off speed and wheel size through the LCD.

 

In practice I can't imagine anybody caring much but it opens that window of uncertainty again. I'm sure there are some hub kits that come with a hub motor in a pre-built wheel with a controller with a fixed cutoff but many don't.

 

And it gets confused further with flashing motors. Take Tongsheng with OSF that supports via config a street mode and a off-road mode (might have the terminology wrong). My guess is this is not legal as switching mode is under the riders control. However, how about flashing OSF to fix the battery segment calibration or to enable assistance at a higher cadence without enabling off-road mode in the config?

 

Is the above:

 

1) Correct and all the kit users dangerous criminals about to be locked up.

 

2) Technically correct but as long as you set the 15.5mph you are deemed to comply.

 

3) Total cobblers, the legislation is quite happy that the cutoff can be configured as a setting by the end user as long as it is in some hidden menu only accessible at startup? You just should not be able to configure it whilst riding.

 

4) Something else?

 

If 1, then it is clearly much easier for manufacturers to comply where they have all the variables under their control. If I remember, there were manufactured bikes with a street and off-road mode, what was the consensus in the legality of those? My understanding is that these are definitely a problem if switching mode is under the riders control - but what does that really mean? Is the Tongsheng hidden config menu under the riders control if it can only be accessed at startup with a series of awkward key presses?

 

My understanding, for what it is worth, is that a kit is ok as long as the bike observes the 15.5mph even if it is configured in a setup menu that is not intended to be changed by the rider as a day to day activity. OSF with off-road mode configured steps over the line as this is intended to be changed by the rider and is not an installation config setting.

 

C

Edited April 18, 20233 yr by Bogmonster666

If asked to defend myself against an alleged breach of the pedelec law I would argue that there are probably only a very, very small number of individuals in the UK who fully understand the provisions of the relevant Act/Regulations and therefore I relied upon on the received wisdom that a 250w motor and the computer set at 15.5mph max is all that a reasonable person can do. I might even refer them to the numerous threads on sites such as this to show how often conflicting advice is given to angst ridden amateurs like myself, all of it with good intentions but often confusing.

 

You generally can't use ignorance of the law as a defence, but if I had to, I would. I just want to get out there and ride safely, improving my health, on a bike which gives me the assistance I need.

The motor must be "RATED" at no more than 250w.

 

Are TSDZ2s illegal? All TSDZ2 motors are rated 750W... It appears that the motors are all the same and use the same controller, with the only difference between 36V 250W, 36V 350W, 36V 500W, 48V 500W, 48V 750W being firmware parameters on that controller. I'd hate to be sued by a insurance company after causing accidental damage.

Edited April 18, 20233 yr by I893469365902345609348566

Are TSDZ2s illegal? All TSDZ2 motors are rated 750W... It appears that the motors are all the same and use the same controller, with the only difference between 36V 250W, 36V 350W, 36V 500W, 48V 500W, 48V 750W being the firmware parameters on that controller.

My laypersons understanding on this point is that if the manufacturer has rated and marked the motor as 250w then you are ok. The statement all TSDZ2 motors are rated at 750w is not true.

 

Not that it is particularly relevant as per the legal rating, I did see that replacement internal motors for tsdz2 kits did have different versions for 250w, 500w and 750w so although I have heard many times it's just firmware, I'm still not sure.

 

Interestingly, the label in my tsdz2 states 48v and 250w and 'Whoosh'. I took that to understand this was a label applied by Tongseng for a variant of the motor they supply to Whoosh rather than a label Whoosh have stuck on themselves...and I believe this to be the case. The label on the whoosh kits is shown in a photo on this page: https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?tsdz2

 

If your tsdz2 has a label stating 500w or 750w or anything other than 250w then it is not legal for use on roads.

Edited April 18, 20233 yr by Bogmonster666

My take on this;

 

Should the user of a doctored e-bike, on public access areas be facing litigation for causing life altering injuries to another party, I have my suspicions being able to outsmart the intent of e-bike laws, would be something of a secondary issue in the scale of things. But, one not exactly helping to portray a cyclist as a responsible rider, an aspect that would be critical, just the opposite, an intent to ride aggressively?

 

 

Life changing civil injury claims can readily amount to cost that are also “life changing” to the guilty party.

My laypersons understanding on this point is that if the manufacturer has rated and marked the motor as 250w then you are ok.

 

They appear to be rated 250W/350W at 36V

 

https://www.pswpower.com/products/europe-china-stock-tongsheng-36v-250w-350w-tsdz2-electric-bicycle-central-mid-motor-torque-sensor-with-coast-foot-brake-function-21

 

 

and 500W/750W at 48V

 

https://www.pswpower.com/products/europe-or-china-stock-48v-500w-or-48v-750w-vlcd5-or-vlcd6-or-xh-18-lcd-tsdz2-electric-bicycle-mid-motor-with-torque-sensor-65

 

 

Interestingly, the label in my tsdz2 states 48v and 250w and 'Whoosh'.

 

 

They are all exactly the same motor with the same controller, rated at 750W

 

I can't see TSDZ2 labels for sale which state anything other than "250W"

My laypersons understanding on this point is that if the manufacturer has rated and marked the motor as 250w then you are ok.

 

Interestingly, the label in my tsdz2 states 48v and 250w and 'Whoosh'. I took that to understand this was a label applied by Tongseng for a variant of the motor they supply to Whoosh rather than a label Whoosh have stuck on themselves...

[mention=4]flecc[/mention]'s writings on legal questions (a) have the benefit of very long experience (b) have the tone of someone with a legal background, so I take great comfort from them.

 

When I get around to a conversion I will keep myself happy by staying below 25kph assisted, keeping motor parameters to no more than I have observed on my Shimano system, and never becoming the less vulnerable party in any incident.

 

Insurance I expect to be an issue with a conversion, so I probably won't bother with it.

 

The only way to true peace of mind is an off the shelf, undongled bike.

The only way to true peace of mind is an off the shelf, undongled bike.

 

There's more peace of mind with Bafangs which leave the factory engraved 250W. It seems all TSDZ2s are rated 750W and labelled by others. I'll avoid getting one, because I'd hate to get badgered by the law and insurance companies too.