The label on the whoosh kits is shown in a photo on this page: https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?tsdz2

 

Is that the manufacturer's label? It's got "WOOSH" printed on it.

 

 

Is that the manufacturer's label? It's got "WOOSH" printed on it.

 

Let's ask [mention=6303]Woosh[/mention], is the label on the Woosh kits a label applied by the manufacturer or is it a label applied by yourselves?

Let's ask [mention=6303]Woosh[/mention], is the label on the Woosh kits a label applied by the manufacturer or is it a label applied by yourselves?

 

It doesn't matter, all TSDZ2 motors are rated 750W.

 

 

The motor must be "RATED" at no more than 250w.

It doesn't matter, all TSDZ2 motors are rated 750W.

I am not trying to be argumentative and I genuinely want to get the correct understanding, so if my understanding is wrong, I want to be corrected, but I think it does matter. My understanding is the relevant 'rating' is what the manufacturer specifies and marks the motor up as. An engraved 250w bafang can clearly deliver more than 250w but Bafang have rated it at 250w. Obviously, if a motor leaves the factory marked up as 750w and a supplier sticks a 250w label on it then I can see that being an issue.

 

Tbh, I am less concerned about the 250w thing as I feel it is reasonably clear, I can see the configurable assistance speed being more open to challenge. But this clearly isn't my area of knowledge. I suspect this really comes down to is the assistance speed setting a config setting or a rider setting, this was my original doubt?

Edited April 18, 20233 yr by Bogmonster666

Let's ask [mention=6303]Woosh[/mention], is the label on the Woosh kits a label applied by the manufacturer or is it a label applied by yourselves?

It's a tongsheng label.

I asked them to make for me a 48V 250W TSDZ2 with clear labelling.

I asked Bafang the same, make for me a BBS01B 48V 250W with clear labelling. Bafang label is more cryptic but clear enough.

They supplied it like it is. It's a lot simpler that way, everyone concerned knows where they stand legally.

It's a tongsheng label.

I asked them to make for me a 48V 250W TSDZ2 with clear labelling.

I asked Bafang the same, make for me a BBS01B 48V 250W with clear labelling. Bafang label is more cryptic but clear enough.

They supplied it like it is. It's a lot simpler that way, everyone concerned knows where they stand legally.

 

Aren't "Ratings" and "Labels" two different things? There's no mention of the importance of labels over ratings in any of the legislation I've ever seen, and TSDZ2s are all exactly the same containing the same controllers and rated 750W, simply programmed differently. It's curious to me why everyone piles in pointing fingers at the illegality of other motors rated higher than 250W, but endless threads about the UK illegal TSDZ2s are tolerated here, which seems against forum rules.

 

BTW if anyone wants to gift me their illegal TSDZ2, PM me for my address

It doesn't matter, all TSDZ2 motors are rated 750W.

 

But technical standard EN15194, Type Approval Exemption law and Pedelec law all only apply to complete pedelecs, so what a motor only maker says they are has no prescribed legal meaning.

 

If Woosh are nominating the specification of pedelecs made to their order, they are not just a retailer but arguably the manufacturer**. Thus they are able to specify the rating.

 

** There are examples in the motor industry. Vauxhall, Nissan, Suzuki and others have all marketed small car models entirely designed and manufactured in India. Simply having the single change of their brand logo on the car means they are the legal manufacturer.

.

Derestriction, ‘off-road’ switches or modes and dongles

 

The Department of Transport say that electric bikes fitted with off-road switches or modes, that enable a bike’s motor to continue assisting to speeds beyond 15.5mph, do not comply with UK EAPC law. The term ‘off-road’ suggests that these bikes can be ridden on parkland, forests or other places away from main roads, which isn’t accurate. E-bikes with increased motor power (continuous rated power above 250w) or increased speed (with motor assistance not cutting out at 15.5mph) cannot be used legally as bicycles anywhere on land accessible by the public; when riding on private land you would need permission from the landowner.

 

if you have a controller you can adjust and not be totally locked out so you cant change anything it is not road legal simple as that.

 

the fact that you can change anything means is does not comply with uk law and if they went after this in a court of law will mean you will loose.

 

if i remove my dongle i can not change anything in the controller because it is a locked system.

 

so if i rip out my bosch controller and fit a phase runner and set it to 15mph it still wont be road legal because i have fitted a controller i can programme my self and i promise i wont be a bad boy and put a sticker on it.

But technical standard EN15194, Type Approval Exemption law and Pedelec law all only apply to complete pedelecs, so what a motor only maker says they are has no prescribed legal meaning.

 

Are you saying that a "dinner plate" 1500W hub motored bicycle is completely legal if it's limited to 250W by the controller, if bought as a complete unit?

Are you saying that a "dinner plate" 1500W hub motored bicycle is completely legal if it's limited to 250W by the controller, if bought as a complete unit?

yes if the controller is locked out at 15mph and no way for the end user to change the speed or power limits.

 

a bosch controller is 20a and 250w wont get you up any hill under the 15mph limit a motor can use any amount of power under this speed.

The Department of Transport say that electric bikes fitted with off-road switches or modes, that enable a bike’s motor to continue assisting to speeds beyond 15.5mph

 

This is the crux of my question. Is there a difference between 'mode or switch' and a 'setup configuration parameter'? [mention=11305]soundwave[/mention] would appear to think not, I would be interested in [mention=4]flecc[/mention] 's view.

 

Edit: and maybe [mention=4]flecc[/mention] has just answered it in a reply to another post 'and the limiting is not easily changed while riding'..of course his post was regarding a complete bike but I think we have already established kits are overlooked if they observe the same restrictions?

Edited April 18, 20233 yr by Bogmonster666

Are you saying that a "dinner plate" 1500W hub motored bicycle is completely legal if it's limited to 250W by the controller, if bought as a complete unit?

 

If a complete pedelec branded by the supplier as of their manufacture in law, and the limiting is not easily changed while riding, yes, entirely legal if compliant with all the other requirements of the law. It is a 250 watt machine.

.

there was a few company's that made kits that was impossible to change the speed limits in the controllers but they all went bust.

This is the crux of my question. Is there a difference between 'mode or switch' and a 'setup configuration parameter'? [mention=11305]soundwave[/mention] would appear to think not, I would be interested in [mention=4]flecc[/mention] 's view.

 

All that matters is being legally configured as supplied and not having a handy switch to boost power while out on the road.

 

What Soundwave means is that you cannot change anything and remain legal, but he is wrong in this statement:

 

"the fact that you can change anything means is does not comply with uk law and if they went after this in a court of law will mean you will loose."

 

That is simpy not true. You only break the law if you actually make the change or if the pedelec is fitted with an on-road simple switch that breaches legal use.

.

there was a few company's that made kits that was impossible to change the speed limits in the controllers but they all went bust.

 

 

The wheel size on your bike's display can be changed by a Bosch dealer, for faster speed.

The wheel size on your bike's display can be changed by a Bosch dealer, for faster speed.

no it cant as can only change it max buy 10% for different wheel sizes the gen 1 bikes you could put the magnet on the crank arm to fool the system.

 

on gen 2 this was fixed so had no choice bar a dongle and with gps tracking no dongles will work if they go down that road.

If a complete pedelec branded by the supplier as of their manufacture in law, and the limiting is not easily changed while riding, yes, entirely legal if compliant with all the other requirements of the law. It is a 250 watt machine.

.

 

Confusing, because the seller of the OP's bike, which he bought as a complete unit, said that his illegal bike could be limited to become legal, and you agreed with this post -

 

It matters not if that bike is retricted to 250w & 25km/h , it is illegal and requires registration and all the other legalities to go with it as a moped class .

no it cant as can only change it max buy 10% for different wheel sizes the gen 1 bikes you could put the magnet on the crank arm to fool the system.

 

It can be changed, so by your logic your bike can never be legal?

the dealer can change the wheel size but it will never go above cut off speed with out a dongle.

 

i dont ride my bike with out a dongle never have lol.

the dealer can change the wheel size but it will never go above cut off speed with out a dongle.

 

Isn't the speed calculated using wheel size, which the dealer can change, which by the fact that controller settings can be changed as you've said, make your bike illegal? Even without the dongle.

we have discussed this same subject over the years and there is still no general agreement.

Kits are tolerated in the EU just as much as here, in the UK. Police over there don't stop e-bikers because they have a kit, but there are anecdotes now and then that some got fined 100 Euros for using the throttle. I have not come across any in recent years but I guess if you pop into a bike shop over there and ask, they'll tell you that the throttle is illegal in the EU and they don't do kits because kits because of their professional insurance and they think that kits are not legal either. I recently popped into a couple of campuses, nearly half of the bikes there are electric and mostly with Bosch motors, so no wonder that a lot of people would happily accept the view that kits and throttle are not legal. All the cheap Chinese e-bikes that supermarkets sell have their LCD locked.

I can certainly ask Kingmeter to supply me with locked LCDs that I cannot change myself or I password protect the settings of the LCDs. I choose not to do so because my customers do not ask me to supply locked LCDs. The fact is that the Chinese controllers are not programmed for a soft cutoff encourages customers to increase the max speed to 17-18mph to avoid the shap cutoff when they reach 15.5mph. They should have been programmed with soft cutoff but they are not. Seach me, I don't have an answer for this. It's not as if it's beyond their capability. Still, I don't want to go down the OSF route because I need the guarantee from my suppliers.

Isn't the speed calculated using wheel size, which the dealer can change, which by the fact that settings can be changed as you've said, make your bike illegal? Even without the dongle.

 

no because the controllers speed limit is locked there is no way for a dealer to over ride this like in the usa the speed limit is 20mph so regen locked if i imported a bike from the usa the uk dealer wont be able to change this nor will they do any warranty work to the bike either.

 

on shitmano motors you can get a app to regen unlock the motors for 20mph but if they find out it has been used warranty void.

 

you also have to set the motor angle on these fkn things as well.

 

at the end of the day it will go to the cps and even tho you are braking the law it wont be in the public interest prosecute.

 

just get pissed and get a scooter from Halfords

There's more peace of mind with Bafangs which leave the factory engraved 250W. It seems all TSDZ2s are rated 750W and labelled by others. I'll avoid getting one, because I'd hate to get badgered by the law and insurance companies too.

 

More hearsay untruths.

 

TSDZ2B_Suzhou Tongsheng Electric Co., Ltd.,Motor,Meter,Controller (tongsheng-e.com)

 

TSDZ2B_Aikema Electric Drive System (Suzhou) Co., Ltd_Motors_Batteries (aikema-e.com)

 

No mention of 750w motors.

we have discussed this same subject over the years and there is still no general agreement.

Kits are tolerated in the EU just as much as here, in the UK. Police over there don't stop e-bikers because they have a kit, but there are anecdotes now and then that some got fined 100 Euros for using the throttle. I have not come across any in recent years but I guess if you pop into a bike shop over there and ask, they'll tell you that the throttle is illegal in the EU and they don't do kits because kits because of their professional insurance and they think that kits are not legal either. I recently popped into a couple of campuses, nearly half of the bikes there are electric and mostly with Bosch motors, so no wonder that a lot of people would happily accept the view that kits and throttle are not legal. All the cheap Chinese e-bikes that supermarkets sell have their LCD locked.

I can certainly ask Kingmeter to supply me with locked LCDs that I cannot change myself or I password protect the settings of the LCDs. I choose not to do so because my customers do not ask me to supply locked LCDs. The fact is that the Chinese controllers are not programmed for a soft cutoff encourages customers to increase the max speed to 17-18mph to avoid the shap cutoff when they reach 15.5mph. They should have been programmed with soft cutoff but they are not. Seach me, I don't have an answer for this. It's not as if it's beyond their capability. Still, I don't want to go down the OSF route because I need the guarantee from my suppliers.

 

That's quite a long paragraph which doesn't contain "TSDZ2" or it's 750W rating by the manufacturer. Spare parts are all for the same motor. As I understand it, you assemble bikes not manufacture them, rather like the OP's seller, so why does it matter what you label them as?

More hearsay untruths.

 

TSDZ2B_Suzhou Tongsheng Electric Co., Ltd.,Motor,Meter,Controller (tongsheng-e.com)

 

Of it's rating it says -

 

 

Rated Power


250W/350W/500W

 

It's the same motor and the same controller. I don't see how it can be considered legal.