Distortion, the Chinese don't ride the sort of pedelecs they mainly sell to us. They ride what are mopeds with circa 700 watt ratings with either no pedals or vestigial pedals that can only propel at very low speeds which they never use. They have also sent those to us but the takeup here has been very low. The same is true elsewhere in the orient where what are essentially mopeds are commonly seen with as many as whole families on board. Those are what pass as e-bikes in most of the orient, Japan being an exception to some extent due to their stronger law.

 

And in Africa and India** e-bikes scarcely exist. Once again you know next to nothing about the subject, seeming to think what you imagine is fact.

 

Why not stick to the subject, which is that there is no need to change the pedelec law when all needs are catered for with other laws.

 

While I understand you don't intend it, you are being very selfish. The pedelec law is a universal one to provide assistance for all cyclists needing it, which of course includes all the children who ride bicycles. In consequence many children in mainland Europe, especially the Netherlands, do ride pedelecs. So the safety aspects of the power and speed limits and how they are controlled by limiting within pedalling ability are important.

 

If you want an e-bike instead of a pedelec, just buy or create an L1e-A e-bike (Low Powered Moped) which is superior to any pedelec with throttle. Or, if like many, you want more speed and power to suit for your cycling, buy an L1e-B (S-class e-bike ).

 

Everyone is catered for, there is no need to mess with the excellent pedelec law. It is utterly pointless to rant as you are doing anyway, since the pedelec law will not change. It is indeed the only world standard in e-biking, with so many countries following it change is nigh on impossible now.

 

**Afrobarometer survey findings from 34 African countries show little progress in electrification. While experiences vary by country, on average access to a power grid improved by just 4 percentage points over the past decade. And even where connections to the grid exist, unreliable supply remains a major problem.

 

India currently reports 99.4% electrification, yet there are 304 million people who still lack access to electricity according to the recent draft of the National Energy Policy . In most countries, electrification means not only being connected to the grid but also providing homes and businesses sufficient electricity access to meet their daily needs. However, in India, the definition of electrification in rural areas, where most of the unelectrified population lives, has been detached from the actual supply of electricity to households.

.

 

In India and Africa often ebikes are the only motorised transport they can afford and there is a high level of kits from what I understand. A huge number of videos from India are how to fit ebike kits mainly simple brushed motors which are the cheapest option. However there is not much statistical information to back that up admittedly because these markets are under-developed.

 

There is certainly no manipulation on my side at all. At all times I'm being factual. Luckily China does have much better statistics. As already shown the average price of an ebike in China is $167. It goes without saying these are very simple ebikes using lead acid batteries. No fear of lithium-ion fires etc so they have their good points.

 

Statistics show that in China itself there are over 40 million ebikes sold a year and this is by far the biggest ebike market in the world for new complete ebikes.

 

I can't see anything mixing e-moped and ebike sales figures here;

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/255662/sales-of-electric-bicycles-in-china/

 

However surely the price alone must indicate e-bikes anyway the average selling prices is far too low to allow for full e-mopeds surely. As for how they are used I have no idea, casual leisure, some commuting etc no data on that. However even here you see people who have spent thousands on a high end ebike only to sell it on the classifieds here with only a few hundred miles use. I don't think it would be fair to make assumptions of either high or low use. It's just people buying ebikes and their use will vary.

 

Again you have provided zero data to support your viewpoint where as I have provided good data clearly backing up my opinion. Surely at this point you have to provide data to support your opinion as you have provided nothing so far.

 

I think the EU ebike legislation is appalling and its much ignored around Europe and the UK as pretty much unworkable. It's anti-consumer and anti the environment. I'm certainly not angry or worked up about it though. It's just an opinion and easy to work around and is the legislation is pretty much ignored anyway. I was in Exeter on Monday, first time for years. For some reason there was constant police sirens and police cars driving about the city centre so something was going on. I used the park and ride to get into the city centre and couldn't help noticing the huge amount of gig economy ebike riders who had throttle based ebikes with direct drive hub motors. I saw at least 5 different ebike riders I think and the police were everywhere in full sight of these riders. The EU ebike legislation is just a complete farce and a joke quite honestly. I can't think of any other law so blatantly ignored by everyone including the authorities. Does it even need to be repealed or changed when everyone ignores it anyway?

My impression of situation is he can't possibly make it legal. The motor can not be capable of 250w or greater continously. No matter what you supply it with or by it is in itself capable of well over that.

It's a bit like the 125cc law. Even if you restricted a 250 to under 11kw its still a 250..???

Motor must be labelled "250w".. But thousands flaunt the law, which is where your seller is coming from.

 

The ebike law is extremely poorly written. All ebike motor systems are capable of taking more power, the ebike law should have been completely focused on the controller which dictates how much power the motor gets but because its mid-drive focused where the controller is integrated into the main body of the motor assembly it makes zero sense when applied to hub motors where the controller is separate. The same direct drive hub motor can take from 200W power to 2000W because its very simple internally with no gearing and even geared hub motors can go from as low as maybe 150W to about 500W, i.e. a 24V hub motor can still be used with a 48V controller. The ebike law should be completely focused on the controller but unfortunately we have to put up with the moronic EU ebike legislation which makes little sense.

I to an extent agree , the regs for power control are all wrong. There is no regulation on the controller max current in use . So any controller can be used with a 250w rated motor, how long that motor lasts before failing is an open book.

 

If there was a max power controller rating we woul dall be riding around on bikes with 7a max rated controllers, instead most entry level 36v systems use 7a nominal controllers with a 14 or 15a max output.

 

A 48v powered bike woul have a max 5.2a controller.

 

What we have got is the complete opposite , so called motors rated/marked as 250w and then some pulling over 700 or 800w of power.

Edited March 16, 20233 yr by Nealh

The ebike law is extremely poorly written. All ebike motor systems are capable of taking more power, the ebike law should have been completely focused on the controller which dictates how much power the motor gets but because its mid-drive focused where the controller is integrated into the main body of the motor assembly it makes zero sense when applied to hub motors where the controller is separate. The same direct drive hub motor can take from 200W power to 2000W because its very simple internally with no gearing and even geared hub motors can go from as low as maybe 150W to about 500W, i.e. a 24V hub motor can still be used with a 48V controller. The ebike law should be completely focused on the controller but unfortunately we have to put up with the moronic EU ebike legislation which makes little sense.

You make valid points but whatever law is there will always be those taking advantage.

The pedelec laws are not complicated at all. Folk make them so to justify a blatant disregard for following them. Your argument around where to legislate is pedantics. If controller were limited folk could easily muddy the water. What are police supposed to do, check controller is only capable of supplying 250w.(which would mean less power) My controller for very short bursts (when demand is there) will supply 600w or so. But average must be under 250w.(which it always is)

Your argument is much like saying learners should be limiter to 15bhp but from any size bike? That wouldn't work. Everybody would simply say "my bike produces 15bhp,"Police would have to prove otherwise for every bike. They, d need dynometers in back of every Police van.

As it is, if a 125 says so on engine block (which they do), on motorbike and on logbook its a 125.

If a pedelec says 250w on motor, and it has 15.5mph power limit, its a pedelec. What's the fuss.??

The current eBike\Pedalec rules are easily manageable for those that choose to be law abiding.

 

What is wrong with the system, as with many other regulations, is that there is no apparent interest in enforcing the regulations.

 

The UK in particular has become a society when observance of large number of regulations is seen as purely voluntary. This apparent behavour starts at the top, parties in lockdown for instance, and the masses follow the examples set.

The ebike law is extremely poorly written - - - - - because its mid-drive focused where the controller is integrated into the main body of the motor assembly it makes zero sense when applied to hub motors where the controller is separate. - - - - - -we have to put up with the moronic EU ebike legislation which makes little sense.

 

I to an extent agree , the regs for power control are all wrong. There is no regulation on the controller max

 

Not completely true.

 

First, there is no such thing as an ebike in EU or UK legislation. There is one class of assisted cycle, called EPAC (Electric Power Assisted Cycle) in the EU and EAPC (Electric Assisted Pedal Cycle) in the UK.

 

There are also three classes of moped in the EU, the latter two lumped as one in the UK. Some are bicycle based and commonly called ebikes, even though there is no such thing in law:

 

L1e-A: max. assist speed 25 kph, max. power rating 1kW.

 

L1e-B: max assist speed 45kph, max. power rating 4kW.

 

S-class: max assist speed 45kph, max. power rating 500W.

 

I have excluded 250LPM since that doesn't exist in law, it exists only as a ministerial permission to breach the law.

 

Keeping this to EAPCs, the EU regulation which we also follow specifies the power by tests of actual power specified in EN15194. But EN15194, like our EAPC regulation only applies to complete machines. There is no such thing as a kit motor in law, so the effect of using different controllers with kit hub motors is irrelevant when it isn't legislated for.

 

One method of power test in EN15194, that of power at the motor shaft, specifies that is has to be measured in accordance with EN60034-1, the Rotating Electrical Machinery Directive. Since to meet the specified limit the current supplied is limited by that need, it's not true to say any controller can be used.

 

Equally the second method of power test in EN15194 limits the current supplied to meet the specified conditions.

 

So how come there are complete pedelecs clearly capable of delivering such high levels of actual usable power at the wheel? Quite simply it's because the law is being bent to fit the need, usually by understating the permitted temperature maximum for continuous maximum power.

 

Therefore it's not the law that is wrong, it's that it is being breached, or most often ignored, since 26 of the 28 EU countries never accepted EN15194, only France and Britain signed up to it as EU members at the time.

 

So how did this come about? Well it all starts with the Japanese law which at the time was the most sophisticated so loosely copied by the EU. However the Japanese commonly cycle in a very sedate way, their accepted common cycling speed being 15kph (9.4 mph) and even slower for their legal pavement cycling, so their pedelec law reflected that with very tight power conditions and early power phase down from that low speed.

 

So although the EU copied the Japanese power limit of 250W, they avoided constraining it so tightly to better match common European cycling. It's that tolerance which is being taken advantage of by wrongly interpreting it as a loophole.

 

Britain was much stricter with our original law, only permitting a true 200 watts with a 12 mph assist speed limit, these only increasing in three stages long after, thanks to the EU.

 

Here's the EN15194 power test details for those interested. Since the other test is power at the motor shaft which is clearly not possible on most pedelecs, I've only given the power at the wheel details in two charts:

 

 

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Edited March 16, 20233 yr by flecc

d) Verify the speed value is equal or less than the maximum speed declared by the manufacturer after 20 metres (D)

P = m x 2D^2/T^3

Your bike should take at least 6.9 seconds to reach the 20 metres line.

 

You can try it without the throttle and pedal as little as possible to let the motor do most of the work.

Your bike should take at least 6.9 seconds to reach the 20 metres line.

 

You can try it without the throttle and pedal as little as possible to let the motor do most of the work.

 

Of course impossible to do with a torque sensing pedelec since the motor doing all the work is a test condition.

.

Regarding the motor. If it is marked '1500w', or similar, it is ilegal - end of. To be legal it has to be marked/stamped 250w.

It would be interesting to know how the seller intends to 'easily make it road legal.

Even if controller output current is restricted to 6.9A (250w @ 36v) the motor would still be ilegal as well as bloody useless as a direct drive at this current would probably produce more heat and noise than motion.

So, as you'd stated it was for road use, then bike is not fit for purpose.

Thanks for that, you make a very interesting and logical point. Wing haven't given any indication as to how it can be modified simply that it's "easily done". I have passed your comment, and several others from this forum to my solicitor who is now reviewing the information in order to decide on where next.

Luckily China does have much better statistics. As already shown the average price of an ebike in China is $167. It goes without saying these are very simple ebikes using lead acid batteries.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/255662/sales-of-electric-bicycles-in-china/

 

However surely the price alone must indicate e-bikes anyway the average selling prices is far too low to allow for full e-mopeds surely.

 

Read the article linked to later and you'll be much better informed about the dearth of cycling in China. The Chinese don't like pedalling and as Wai Won Ching, boss of Ezee Kinetics posted, they don't understand our obsession with cycling up hills, always walking up theirs. In that linked article you'll see a photo of them riding bicycles and not a deralleur in sight and they don't use hub gears either. So when it comes to having a motor they go the whole way with Moped style machines that they don't pedal.

 

So I trust you'll accept that Mr Ching knows best since he is a manufacturer of our kind of e-bikes which he only sells in the west, never in China. But if not, perhaps youll accept what d8veh says since he had been one of the most knowledgeable of our members. He has been to China to look at the scene there and has reported with photos exactly what I say about their e-bikes being almost entirely mopeds. And they really are as cheap as you say.

 

The photos below are what they call ebikes:

 

 

 

 

 

And below you'll see Honda's latest range of ebikes for the Chinese market. Note the very low geared near to useless pedals and the footrests and platforms to rest their legs on and the huge scooter style rear wheel motors:

 

 

Finally here's the link I mentioned. Please read it right though to be better informed about Chinese cycling from 1990 to today:

 

Information Link

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Edited March 17, 20233 yr by flecc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhtwrDDbZ6M

 

Well, here we are, the final instalment of my saga:

 

I heard from the lawyer today and, after reviewing all of my correspondence with Wing, I don't have a case. He sites two reasons fr his conclusion:

 

1) There is nothing in writing to say that I made it clear to Wing that I wanted the bike for use on the road so it's my word against his and the outcome is 50:50 depending on who the judge chooses to believe.

2) He has been unable to identify ant assets belonging to the owner of Wing so, there is a low level of confidence that collecting any award would be possible even if I win.

 

It seems to me that even if I'd bought the bike from Halfords, there would be nothing in writing and any conversation I had with a member of staff about the use I wanted to put the bike to would almost certainly be out on the shop floor without ant independent witness to what was said. I don't know about you guys but I don't tend to go into a shop with a written statement of what I want to buy or what I want to use the item for!

 

Since the same argument could be made for buying a washing machine from Curry's or, indeed, any retailer it seems to me that the Consumer Rights Act only works for the consumer if you're dealing with a benevolent dealer so it doesn't offer much in the way of Consumer Rights.

 

Anyway, that's the end of the matter because I can't afford the £275 per hour, with every six minutes as a charging period, to pursue the case and all I can do is alert people to this bike seller with rather questionable business ethics and suggest that they stay away from him.

 

As for me, I need to buy another bike so I'd be interested in any recommendations for a reliable seller of good quality road bikes at around the £1500 mark. I could spend more if something really takes my eye.

 

P.S. Anyone want to buy a 1500W 48V eMTB, one careful owner and just 8 miles on the clock from new. Immaculate condition etc.

Sad, but I cannot say I am surprised.

 

Without specific legislation, the seller of the eBike seems to have no legal obligation to inform the purchaser of the legalities of the product being sold.

 

A responsible UK government would mandate that sellers, of eBikes not legal on the roads, are required to obtain from the purchaser, a signed declaration that they know the eBike is illegal on the road. If the eBike, not legal for road use, was going to be legally used on private land, how could there be an objection ?

 

Whilst this would not stop all the abuse, I suspect a lot of sellers of the illegal on the road bikes would think twice, and the purchasers cannot claim 'I did not realise' when caught.

P.S. Anyone want to buy a 1500W 48V eMTB, one careful owner and just 8 miles on the clock from new. Immaculate condition etc.

 

Sorry, my garden is not big enough.

id just ride it chances are you sell it then order a take away and the guy you just sold it to turns up on it with ur big mac meal

 

ebike shop one of the biggest in the uk that sells bosch bikes ect will sell and fit dongles to there bikes and i have had a dongle on my bike now for 9 years.

 

if you cant go faster than 15mph then the scooter gangs will have you for lunch as need a fkn crash helmet to walk to the shop:rolleyes:

The DVSA last year successfully prosecuted two companies for selling illegal ebikes/scooters.

Sad, but I cannot say I am surprised.

 

Without specific legislation, the seller of the eBike seems to have no legal obligation to inform the purchaser of the legalities of the product being sold.

 

A responsible UK government would mandate that sellers, of eBikes not legal on the roads, are required to obtain from the purchaser, a signed declaration that they know the eBike is illegal on the road. If the eBike, not legal for road use, was going to be legally used on private land, how could there be an objection ?

 

Whilst this would not stop all the abuse, I suspect a lot of sellers of the illegal on the road bikes would think twice, and the purchasers cannot claim 'I did not realise' when caught.

Thanks for that, your comments make so much sense. It's indeed sad that a supposedly key piece of consumer legislation has no teeth and relies on the goodwill of the retailer to get your rights.

The DVSA last year successfully prosecuted two companies for selling illegal ebikes/scooters.

Hmmm maybe I'll report this critter to them.

Somewhere on the forum I posted a link to the stories.

Somewhere on the forum I posted a link to the stories.

Thanks I'll have a look for it.

Here you go TW1954.

DVSA take companies to Court for selling illegal bikes. | Pedelecs - Electric Bike Community

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51707616

 

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/local-news/man-wracked-guilt-after-crash-26117659

 

Here you go TW1954.

DVSA take companies to Court for selling illegal bikes. | Pedelecs - Electric Bike Community

That's great thanks so much.

id just ride it chances are you sell it then order a take away and the guy you just sold it to turns up on it with ur big mac meal

 

ebike shop one of the biggest in the uk that sells bosch bikes ect will sell and fit dongles to there bikes and i have had a dongle on my bike now for 9 years.

 

if you cant go faster than 15mph then the scooter gangs will have you for lunch as need a fkn crash helmet to walk to the shop:rolleyes:

Thanks for your comments, can you give me some more details about the eBike shop you refer to?

you are wasting ur time ebike shop used to have the option on the same page to add a dongle and colin at ktm bikes at the time lost it and went to war.

 

all that effort ened in ebike shop just removed the option for a dongle off the same page as the bike and is now here.

 

https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/products/bosch-ebike-tuning-dongle?variant=42601797255406

 

note!!! they sell dongles for the new smart motors and will honor bosch warranty, no other ebike dealer can do this and he does not pay for the replacements either as bosch has no 100% way to tell if a dongle has been used or not

 

ebike shop is also by appointment only you just cant walk in there to have a look round bit like a ebike mafia

 

and they win the best ebike dealer every year lmfao