Disregarding UK pedelec laws

[soundwave]

I can see their point. If an owner having bought a crank drive bike with treble the power then changes the gearing, they are then up into motorcycle speeds. At least the 250 watt motors when derestricted are limited to around 20 mph by the lack of enough power to propel faster.

i can go way faster than 20mph pmsl not 1 road bike has even come close i pi$$ all over them.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

i can go way faster than 20mph pmsl not 1 road bike has even come close i pi$$ all over them.

What's the power rating of the motor?

 

[soundwave]

What's the power rating of the motor?

id say 1000w motor with a 20a controller

 

[Deleted member 25121]

id say 1000w motor with a 20a controller

That's why the EU laws restrict the motor to 250w, exactly as flecc says.

 

[soundwave]

That's why the EU laws restrict the motor to 250w, exactly as flecc says.

the motor is not 250w the law is 15.5mph@250w but under this speed limit the motor will use all the power it can up to the speed limit.

even if you had the race version it would not be any faster going up hill as all the motors are the same inside and software limited for max speed and power.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

the motor is not 250w the law is 15.5mph@250w

The law is that the motor provides assistance up to 15.5mph, at that speed there's no requirement whatsoever for the motor to be consuming 250w.

Very loosely speaking, the 250w figure refers to the maximum power the motor can consume continuously without damaging itself eg by overheating.

 

[soundwave]

The law is that the motor provides assistance up to 15.5mph, at that speed there's no requirement whatsoever for the motor to be consuming 250w.

Very loosely speaking, the 250w figure refers to the maximum power the motor can consume continuously without damaging itself eg by overheating.

turbo

 

[MarcusT]

The laws are enacted by representatives who are elected. If you don't like the laws and enough people agree with you, then they can be changed.
In the meantime, if you do not follow the laws, as long as no one gets hurt, it's all good. Just don't come crying on this forum when you get caught, about how unfair the police are and how you are the victim

 

[vfr400]

The law is that the motor provides assistance up to 15.5mph, at that speed there's no requirement whatsoever for the motor to be consuming 250w.

Very loosely speaking, the 250w figure refers to the maximum power the motor can consume continuously without damaging itself eg by overheating.

If you you look in the standard and the associated tests, you'll see that it's actually the minimum power, not the maximum. The motor has to be able to run at 250w output power without overheating. If it can run at 1000w without overheating, it's still a pass. The only requirement is that the motor has to have a rating of no more than 250w.

It seems to have taken a while for manufacturers to figure out what's actually written in the standards. I guess that's why actual motor powers are going up and up. The first Bosch 250w motor gave 40 Nm and had a maximum speed of 25km/h. The latest one has the same speed and 75Nm. Power = speed x torque, so if the first motor was 250w, the latest would be 450w, but they still say it's 250w. Hello!

 

[Deleted member 25121]

If you you look in the standard and the associated tests, you'll see that it's actually the minimum power, not the maximum. The motor has to be able to run at 250w output power without overheating

This is certainly a very grey area, are you saying that it would be illegal to use an ebike with a small motor ie one that's rated at less than 250w?

 

[flecc]

This is certainly a very grey area, are you saying that it would be illegal to use an ebike with a small motor ie one that's rated at less than 250w?

No, it's perfectly legal to have a 200 watt or 180 watt one, there are examples.

But if labelled or sold as 250 watts, it must meet that as a minimum as VFR says.
.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

No, it's perfectly legal to have a 200 watt or 180 watt one, there are examples.

But if labelled or sold as 250 watts, it must meet that as a minimum as VFR says.
.

Wow. So a 1000w motor, able to run at up to 1000w without overheating, would be legal provided its sticker said "250w" rather than "1000w". I hadn't properly appreciated how ridiculous that part of the regulations are.

It reminds me of the claims that an electric car has a range of UP TO 200 miles, or a bulb is guaranteed to last for UP TO 5000 hours. Both pretty much meaningless claims in my mind.

The good news is that I'm going to live for up to 150 years. Drinks all round folks!!!

 

[flecc]

It reminds me of the claims that an electric car has a range of UP TO 200 miles

Fortunately the old discredited NEDC (New European Driving Cycle) range figures for all cars are now discontinued.

Now have WLTP (Worldwide harmonized Light vehicles Test Procedure) which is far more accurate. For example, my 2018 Nissan Leaf electric car would have had an NEDC mixed condition figure of around 220 miles in normal power mode. The WLTP figure is 168 miles, and since I've done a mixed use run of 162 miles in normal power mode and still not reaching the "last ten miles" warning with reduced power mode, it's obviously valid.

There's now the addition to WLTP of RDE (Real Driving Experience), in which the car is not just lab tested but actually driven to test the figure.

These have caused chaos in the motor industry since the regulations require that every few cars made, one has to be pulled from the line and actually be tested to ascertain it meets the standard. This caused so many slowdowns in production that long waiting lists arose and car sales fell dramatically in 2018, not only because of the loss of diesel sales but as a result of the WLTP regulations. I waited six months to get my Leaf and well remember the industry bosses moans about the regs., Renault and VW in particular getting very upset. This was all cars of course, i.c. as well as electric and hybrid, but they seem to be getting on top of the problems now.
.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Fortunately the old discredited NEDC (New European Driving Cycle) range figures for all cars are now discontinued.

Now have WLTP (Worldwide harmonized Light vehicles Test Procedure) which is far more accurate. For example, my 2018 Nissan Leaf electric car would have had an NEDC mixed condition figure of around 220 miles in normal power mode. The WLTP figure is 168 miles, and since I've done a mixed use run of 162 miles in normal power mode and still not reaching the "last ten miles" warning with reduced power mode, it's obviously valid.

There's now the addition to WLTP of RDE (Real Driving Experience), in which the car is not just lab tested but actually driven to test the figure.

These have caused chaos in the motor industry since the regulations require that every few cars made, one has to be pulled from the line and actually be tested to ascertain it meets the standard. This caused so many slowdowns in production that long waiting lists arose and car sales fell dramatically in 2018, not only because of the loss of diesel sales but as a result of the WLTP regulations. I waited six months to get my Leaf and well remember the industry bosses moans about the regs., Renault and VW in particular getting very upset. This was all cars of course, i.c. as well as electric and hybrid, but they seem to be getting on top of the problems now.
.

Coincidentally I read in The Times last week that the owner of a 3 year old Nissan Leaf was trying to return his car because he was only getting a range of 120 miles rather than the 160 miles he'd been led to expect (if I remember those numbers correctly). He was claiming that something must be wrong with the car but Nissan and independant experts had told him that there was nothing wrong with it. I had the impression that his claim was going nowhere.

If people are expecting car range and mpg figures to be more representative of real use now then we might see more cases like this though. Maybe the PPI claims brigade will jump onto cases like this now that their income stream has gone, "Hello Mr ebiker99, are you unhappy that your car isn't providing its claimed range? Then let us fight to get you the compensation that you rightly deserve..."

 

[flecc]

Coincidentally I read in The Times last week that the owner of a 3 year old Nissan Leaf was trying to return his car because he was only getting a range of 120 miles rather than the 160 miles he'd been led to expect (if I remember those numbers correctly). He was claiming that something must be wrong with the car but Nissan and independant experts had told him that there was nothing wrong with it. I had the impression that his claim was going nowhere.

If people are expecting car range and mpg figures to be more representative of real use now then we might see more cases like this though. Maybe the PPI claims brigade will jump onto cases like this now that their income stream has gone, "Hello Mr ebiker99, are you unhappy that your car isn't providing its claimed range? Then let us fight to get you the compensation that you rightly deserve..."

Yes, that's the discredited NEDC measure of course that applied for all cars three years ago. Legal claims won't succeed since the NEDC figures were only for guidance and were not legally binding. In addition the way cars are driven seriously affects range, alone makimg legal action impossible. For example my previous car returned only 27 mpg when driven quite hard as I often did, but when I took it easy that rose to as much as 47 mpg. Ironically it was governments, not the industry, who introduced compulsory quoting of NEDC figures to help the consumer with a standardised example system.

That three year old Leaf you quoted had a 30 kWh battery and was less efficient as well as less powerful.

My latest Leaf is a different animal, 40 % more powerful, substantially more efficient and with a battery 33% larger at 40 kWh. No official NEDC figure has ever been quoted for it, only the WLTP figure and further guidance from Nissan explaining how range drops in colder temperatures, mainly due to the battery loss of efficiency then. It easily matches what they say and I've been pleasantly surprised that it does a bit better than I expected when I bought it.
.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Yes, that's the discredited NEDC measure of course that applied for all cars three years ago. Legal claims won't succeed since the NEDC figures were only for guidance and were not legally binding. In addition the way cars are driven seriously affects range, alone makimg legal action impossible. For example my previous car returned only 27 mpg when driven quite hard as I often did, but when I took it easy that rose to as much as 47 mpg. Ironically it was governments, not the industry, who introduced compulsory quoting of NEDC figures to help the consumer with a standardised example system.

That three year old Leaf you quoted had a 30 kWh battery and was less efficient as well as less powerful.

My latest Leaf is a different animal, 40 % more powerful, substantially more efficient and with a battery 33% larger at 40 kWh. No official NEDC figure has ever been quoted for it, only the WLTP figure and further guidance from Nissan explaining how range drops in colder temperatures, mainly due to the battery loss of efficiency then. It easily matches what they say and I've been pleasantly surprised that it does a bit better than I expected when I bought it.
.

I didn't intend to discredit the Leaf in any way and hope you didn't take it that way, I was simply wondering whether WLTP figures will be interpreted more literally than the old NEDC ones which were generally seen to be father idealistic. If people buy a car based on WLTP figures and find they're not getting the range they expect then they are likely to be more disappointed than in the old days of NEDC. Anyway, we'll see....

Talking of colder temperatures, does your car have elements to heat the batteries when they're used at very low temperatures? I ask because the charger for my power tools deliberately won't charge the batteries when they're below +5degC (if I remember rightly) in order to protect them.

 

[soundwave]

Home - Lightning Motors

Engineered by Enthusiasts for Enthusiasts Strike R Order Now More Information Strike R Order Now More Information LS-218 Order Now More Information LS-218 Order Now More Information Charging Fast as Lightning Lightning pushes the limits of electric motorcycle, making them more efficient for the...

lightningmotorcycle.com

the range on that with the biggest batt is 20 miles cant have speed and range yet

 

[flecc]

Talking of colder temperatures, does your car have elements to heat the batteries when they're used at very low temperatures? I ask because the charger for my power tools deliberately won't charge the batteries when they're below +5degC (if I remember rightly) in order to protect them.

Prevous Leafs did have heating and cooling for the batteries, but this latest one doesn't. That has the disadvantage that without cooling the battery can't accept multiple rapid charges for very long journeys. It accepts one at the normal 50kWh rate to extend range to up to 280 miles in fine weather, but then a further rapid charge added is only at about 22 kWh to protect the battery, so takes much longer.

The moral of course is, don't buy one if journeys of 300 miles or more are regularly done.

Battery heating isn't necessary in most countries and certainly not in the UK, since the heater only cuts in at minus 17 degrees C. The Norwegians who are mad keen on e-cars can need a battery heater if in the far north, though even there most find one unnecessary.

The battery technology in e-cars is very different from that for power tools and e-bikes which need to be small so use high density cells that are easily stressed. The e-cars like my Leaf use larger low density cells that don't suffer the same charge stresses and last many more years. The fact that they are being used very far below their maximum for most of their life helps that. My battery is warrantied for eight years/100,000 miles and with my usage and charging regime I fully expect to be using this same battery far beyond ten years. Its battery has more in common with the lithium batteries in satellites which exceed ten years life with around 4000 daily charges from their solar panels, and I don't charge anything like daily.

As for the Leaf's car and battery longevity, you'll find these two links informative:

Link one

Link two
.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Prevous Leafs did have heating and cooling for the batteries, but this latest one doesn't. That has the disadvantage that without cooling the battery can't accept multiple rapid charges for very long journeys. It accepts one at the normal 50kWh rate to extend range to up to 280 miles in fine weather, but then a further rapid charge added is only at about 22 kWh to protect the battery, so takes much longer.

The moral of course is, don't buy one if journeys of 300 miles or more are regularly done.

Battery heating isn't necessary in most countries and certainly not in the UK, since the heater only cuts in at minus 17 degrees C. The Norwegians who are mad keen on e-cars can need a battery heater if in the far north, though even there most find one unnecessary.

The battery technology in e-cars is very different from that for power tools and e-bikes which need to be small so use high density cells that are easily stressed. The e-cars like my Leaf use larger low density cells that don't suffer the same charge stresses and last many more years. The fact that they are being used very far below their maximum for most of their life helps that. My battery is warrantied for eight years/100,000 miles and with my usage and charging regime I fully expect to be using this same battery far beyond ten years. Its battery has more in common with the lithium batteries in satellites which exceed ten years life with around 4000 daily charges from their solar panels, and I don't charge anything like daily.

As for the Leaf's car and battery longevity, you'll find these two links informative:

Link one

Link two
.

Fascinating, thanks for that. The 2 links point to the same URL by the way.

 

[vfr400]

This is certainly a very grey area, are you saying that it would be illegal to use an ebike with a small motor ie one that's rated at less than 250w?

No, it's legal to use any motor rared at 250w or below. The EN15194 standard calls up a standard for a test procedure to verify the rating, but the test is designed to control over-rating the motor. It would be illegal to sell a bike with a motor that was rated at 250w and the motor overheated when the test procedure was applied.