E-Bike over 250W Legal??

[flecc]

I can see why I only ever see ebikers riding around the flatter parts of the UK, I've never seen one trying to ride up any of the hills around here, probably due to the assistance from the puny legal electric motor is negated by the extra weight of the battery, motor, etc.

In fact many are very capable on hills Melvyn, but it's one of the perversities of life that e-bikes seeem to be far more popular in flatter areas than in hilly ones. The classic example is very flat Holland where e-bike sales are the highest in the world.

I think though that the reason they don't appear much in hilly areas is simply that in hilly areas people don't cycle so much. Since e-bikers are recruited from previous cyclists, it follows that less cyclists means less e-bikers.
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[JohnCade]

I must admit to being an impulse buyer, i.e. buying without doing sufficient research, I always end up buying everything twice. I must be grateful to the trade forum members for the heads up on this one. Just two parting observations, I can see why I only ever see ebikers riding around the flatter parts of the UK, I've never seen one trying to ride up any of the hills around here, probably due to the assistance from the puny legal electric motor is negated by the extra weight of the battery, motor, etc.the result being the rider would be better off using his own pedal power alone. It also seems to me that even if your riding a totally legal ebike your likely to be pulled over at any time by an over zealous PC or CSO to a have your bike inspected, which is not conducive to a pleasant cycle ride out into the countryside; it's perhaps better to avoid ebikes altogether.

Try some legal bikes. The 250w figure is purely nominal and the latest ones will peak at about 700w or even more. That will get you up most hills without putting in a lot of effort. I use my Kalkhoff Impulse on very steep hills in west Wales and I have never had to use the lowest gear once. I beat roadies up hills with ease, and I used to be one too until fifteen years ago. But I got to be too old to ride up the hills around here unassisted easily after a lay off, and I like the bionic legs effect of my torque sensor bike too much to want to crawl uphill in a granny gear on an unassisted bike.

You don’t need overpowered kits, and a good pedelec will do all you want. Some crank drive speed sensor kits will go faster unrestricted than some of those DD overpowered kits on eBay, if speed is what you want and you don’t mind being illegal. The DD motors are okay on flat roads but won’t go up hills at all. You need geared motors for that or CD motors.

 

[danielrlee]

I'll accept anything thrown at me as a result of my previous (fairly inflammatory considering the audience) post. What you guys are doing though, by the manner in which you are doing it, is putting people like Melvyn off electric bikes altogether. This "may the Lord smite thee down" approach taken by some isn't doing any of us any favours any more or less than my rather more *ahem* liberal approach.

 

[JohnCade]

I'll accept anything thrown at me as a result of my previous (fairly inflammatory considering the audience) post. What you guys are doing though, by the manner in which you are doing it, is putting people like Melvyn off electric bikes altogether. This "may the Lord smite thee down" approach taken by some isn't doing any of us any favours any more than my rather more *ahem* liberal approach.

Melvyn’s reaction to being told his kit wasn’t actually legal was a bit OTT don’t you think? No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just buy a capable legal bike with will do what most people want, or take your chances with an electric motor bike. We’re all grown ups and can make our own decisions.

 

[flecc]

It also seems to me that even if your riding a totally legal ebike your likely to be pulled over at any time by an over zealous PC or CSO to a have your bike inspected,

In the whole 9 year life of this forum, there hasn't been a single report of this happening. On one occasion a police car crew stopped a member merely to ask him in friendly fashion about his bike out of genuine interest in what e-bikes were. Possibly that was because their force were getting some, since a number of police forces use them now.

The risk of being pulled over for inspection is virtually zero, it's only in the event of an accident that the police have shown any legal interest in an e-bike's spec, and even that has been very rare. I've only heard of two occasions nationally after accidents, and no prosecution resulted from those two.
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[anotherkiwi]

Fit the kit and keep the speed limited to the legal limit. Most "legal" kits put out between 500W and 740W when at the highest assistance level. If you get stopped just show the nice policeman your top speed setting is within the law and all will be well. He doesn't have the time to run off checking motor versions and serial numbers.

I thought I was going to get pulled over in the Spanish Basque country the other Friday but that was because I wasn't wearing a helmet. It wasn't compulsory where I was riding (in the city limits) but I kind of sensed that they wanted to preach the virtues of wearing one anyhow.

 

[oldtom]

Melvyn’s reaction to being told his kit wasn’t actually legal was a bit OTT don’t you think?

The OP certainly surprised me by his responses in post #12 and again in #19 to the explanations of the situation re non-compliant EAPCs.

Unless he's being humorous, perhaps taking the proverbial, I'm inclined to believe the man has some principles and is not prepared to sink to the level of those morally reprehensible individuals who don't give a toss for anyone except for their miserable self.

As has been pointed out repeatedly by several members of this forum, there are now many perfectly legal EAPCs available today which will accelerate from zero to the legal EAPC power cut-off as quickly as many illegal machines. They will also climb hills very capably so there is no need nor excuse for non-compliance.

If I'm right in my impression of the OP, then I believe he should be applauded for his self-respect and dignity, qualities increasingly absent in this modern, 'I'm all right Jack' society.

Tom

 

[Nealh]

Sadly Melvyn has jumped in and purchased the wrong kit the Direct drive motor kit is good for speed on flat roads but lacks any gearing to go up proper hills, further research would have found that good legal geared hubs and crank drives will get you up hills without to much effort. Naming just two such kits Bafang BBS and Oxydrive Bafang cst both 250w and legal, both will climb steep hills at about 7-10mph and moderate ones a bit faster, of course there are other vary capable kits which will equally do the job.

 

[danielrlee]

Sadly Melvyn has jumped in and purchased the wrong kit the Direct drive motor kit is good for speed on flat roads but lacks any gearing to go up proper hills, further research would have found that good legal geared hubs and crank drives will get you up hills without to much effort.

I found otherwise. With the power I was pulling through geared hubs, I regularly stripped gears and turned them to a gooey mess. Since ditching them and progressing to direct drive motors, I can now climb hills like I could have only dreamed of previously.

This of course is completely ignoring the legality aspect, but as stated previously, manufacturers are starting to cotton on and are under-rating monster hubbies with 250W markings. This is why legislative power limits based on nominal ratings are a complete joke.

 

[flecc]

Sadly Melvyn has jumped in and purchased the wrong kit the Direct drive motor kit is good for speed on flat roads but lacks any gearing to go up proper hills,

Not all DD motors are like that, though the Chinese cheapo ones usually are.

Panasonic's direct-drive rear hub motor is both legal and a good hill climber, being well designed for that purpose.
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[Nealh]

Not all DD motors are like that, though the Chinese cheapo ones usually are.

Panasonic's direct-drive rear hub motor is both legal and a good hill climber, being well designed for that purpose.
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Yes you are right I was generalising which I shouldn't have done, the op buying off fleabay would probably have meant that it was a cheaper Chinese one. Cyclezee sells Ansmann & Heinzman models which are by all accounts real quality but for that quality comes a price.

 

[danielrlee]

We were always taught to 'Play the Game' and to be fair, is this the beginning of the downfall of civilisation?

Laws should exist for the benefit of society. When it is blatantly obvious that they do not serve us, we should ask ourselves who is benefiting from their existence and who they are detrimental to.

 

[flecc]

Laws should exist for the benefit of society. When it is blatantly obvious that they do not serve us, we should ask ourselves who is benefiting from their existence and who they detrimental to.

If only it were that easy Daniel. Society doesn't enjoy mutual agreement so your blatantly obvious wrong is equally others blatantly obvious right. Syria and the East Libya-West Libya outcomes are, to use your term, the most blatant examples of societies' divisions.

I understand that the current e-bike laws do not suit you, but they do suit a very much larger number than those who are not suited. Those who benefit are all the people who might otherwise be hurt by more liberal laws and all the pedelec users spared more bureaucracy.
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[oldtom]

Not all DD motors are like that

I can attest to that as my DD bike flies up hills, even if I let my cadence drop really low. The motor seems able to slog at speeds I would think are way under its optimum efficiency without complaint and without overheating and contradicts my preconceptions about DD units.

I wasn't sure I'd like a DD motor on an EAPC after being used to the lovely Panasonic crank-drive motor and the delightful little Tongxin motor in a FWD application. After test-riding one though, I was astonished at just how good it is and it struck me that DD motors have moved on from the very good Ion-Drive so loved by the Dutch.

There are distinct advantages to DD over geared motors. First, they are pretty well silent in operation. Secondly, they have few moving parts and consequently, there is less to go wrong. As for demerits, the good ones can tend to be bigger and heavier than some of the other types but that's it.

The criticisms about being inadequate hill-climbers are from times past as, with state-of-the-art sensoring and a good controller, they are the equal of lots of good crank-drives. All my EAPCs have been silent so when I test-ride something different, I'm immediately put off if it sounds even slightly like an ancient milk float. That somewhat limits the number of bikes I'd be happy to own. Fortunately, as the industry has progressed, there are less of those noisy machines around today.

Tom

 

[Cyclezee]

Cyclezee sells Ansmann & Heinzman models which are by all accounts real quality but for that quality comes a price.

But less expensive than BionX or Neodrives

 

[Kudoscycles]

I must admit to being an impulse buyer, i.e. buying without doing sufficient research, I always end up buying everything twice. I must be grateful to the trade forum members for the heads up on this one. Just two parting observations, I can see why I only ever see ebikers riding around the flatter parts of the UK, I've never seen one trying to ride up any of the hills around here, probably due to the assistance from the puny legal electric motor is negated by the extra weight of the battery, motor, etc.the result being the rider would be better off using his own pedal power alone. It also seems to me that even if your riding a totally legal ebike your likely to be pulled over at any time by an over zealous PC or CSO to a have your bike inspected, which is not conducive to a pleasant cycle ride out into the countryside; it's perhaps better to avoid ebikes altogether.

Melvyn,that is just not so,I ride my little 20" folder(SWX type motor) up hills that I could not ride a normal bike up and certainly struggle to walk up....all these BPM motored bikes have amazing hillclimbing performance.
I have never been stopped by the police riding any legal e-bike on the local promenade but they are very zealous in pulling mopeds and scooters.
I think your original posting was about a 500 watt direct drive motor and that is just not the ideal choice to both remain legal and climb hills,in that respect you should have done more research.
I strongly suggest that you get a test ride on a good legal hillclimbing e-bike before you give up on the idea.
KudosDave

 

[OldBob1]

Here we go again Watts forget it, we should go for a speed limitation 15,16,or 17 MPH. for any pedelec this would assist many people to get out and get some fresh air and exercise including disabled persons and in hilly areas.
If you know what you are doing you can make electric motors or controllers do things they are not made to do.
I can make my 250 watt folder over take a lycra cyclist but I like checking out the local country side at a sedate 12 MPH.
Tin hat fitted and waiting for the flack.

 

[anotherkiwi]

A 500W motor connected to a 7A controller will only produce 252W with a 36V battery. It would be legal in the spirit of the law but not in the letter of the law which says "nominative" power. Don't read what is written on the motor, read what is on the controller. For beginners education: it ain't the motor it's the controller which decides the power! Most modern 250W rated motors are capable of many more Watts output without going up in smoke if the controller feeds more Amps to them.

Mine says 14A + or - 1A peak output which translated to English means it's a 15Amp controller so:
Battery at full charge 41.6V X 15A = 624W maximum output and about 525W when the battery is down to cut off Voltage.

On the motor it is written "250W" so it is a legal set up. Yesterday exploring Hendaye those 500+W peak were not enough on some of the hills (along with my 120W legs), not a "street legal" pedelec friendly town...

 

[willywombat]

excellent thread ..thought provoking and informative.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Yesterday exploring Hendaye those 500+W peak were not enough on some of the hills (along with my 120W legs), not a "street legal" pedelec friendly town...

Not true... you just need a street legal 250w eBike with the 250w nominal power, but higher peaks to help you cope with the hills. You don't need to break the law, you just need a better bike.

ie, the new Bosch CX drive, is 250w nominal, but the peak (if you're spinning at about 80 rpm) is 610w... so if you're pushing out 120w from your legs, you should be able to get 730w, which is surely enough?