What evidence do you have to say that the German branded batteries are more honest about the capacity than the Chinese ones?My experience is completely the opposite that these expensive batteries on expensive bikes have to make sometimes ridiculous claims about the ranges they can achieve,to justify their high prices. Most of the cells used are Panasonic or Samsung on the better quality Chinese batteries,these cells are also extensively used in Germany.I would assume that an electric motor connected to a gear would be more efficient than one without gear, in the same way someone pedaling a bike with gears is more efficient, goes further with the same energy. Unless it's a myth...
As you said, people would also contribute/pedal more on a crank driven bike.
Finally, Bosch or Kalkhoff batteries must be closer to their expected advertised capacity/Ah, than the cheaper Chinese batteries used on many hub-driven bikes.
For all those reasons, I would assume that a Bosch or Kalkhoff crank driven bike would therefore have more range than a hub-driven one, with a similarly battery capacity and similar weight/specification.
Blah blah.My experience is a lot of e-bike owners are lazy riders,they cannot be bothered to change gear,many only use the chainring not the cassette.
Seems to me Bosch batteries do not wear out as quickly as some Chinese ones.What evidence do you have to say that the German branded batteries are more honest about the capacity than the Chinese ones?My experience is completely the opposite that these expensive batteries on expensive bikes have to make sometimes ridiculous claims about the ranges they can achieve,to justify their high prices. Most of the cells used are Panasonic or Samsung on the better quality Chinese batteries,these cells are also extensively used in Germany.
I sell both Crank driven bikes from both Germany and China and Hub driven bikes from Germany and China,I see no difference in range on any of them,if the battery capacity is the same.
In theory the crank drive should be more efficient but you have to be in the right gear to achieve that efficiency,the Bosch motored bike in the wrong gear is a poor hill climber. My experience is a lot of e-bike owners are lazy riders,they cannot be bothered to change gear,many only use the chainring not the cassette.
Whereas the torque spread on strong hub drive allows you to be in the wrong gear and still make efficient use of the motor.
What makes the biggest difference to range is full speed throttles,you can halve the range of an e-bike if you use the throttle like a motorbike,but that is not surprising the energy has to come from somewhere.
LifePo4 gets criticised by those who think they know but actually know nothing. I would love to use LifePo4 on all my bikes,customers who bought my original e-bikes with LifePo4 are now coming up 5 years old with no discernible loss of range,and it's not expensive to replace. But it's heavy and to put it on the down tube makes a bulk that there is not sufficient room to neatly accommodate....you have Eddie0 to thank for that.
To replace a German battery can be £500 -£1200,effectively scrapping the bike after the battery is tired. To replace a Chinese battery £160-£250, it's worth buying a new battery to keep an otherwise ok bike on the road.
I do think the Bosch marketing machine is responsible for a lot of the myths about these electric bikes,it suits the bike shops to support that myth because they earn a lot more profit out of a £2k crank drive than a £1k hub drive and a lot more profit out of a £600 battery than a £200 battery!!!!!
There goes my BAGB cycling award at the next dinner.
Tom....so many of my customers start off in top gear and only change when a hill forces them to do so. Having organised the testing at Redbridge,the testing at the NEC,the road shows including the Manifold Trail,and helped out at several dealers I have first hand experience at how people ride these e-bikes....many openly admit they don't want to pedal,never mind change gear,that's why full speed throttles are so popular....trust me many (not all) are lazy riders....I sell 20 speed sensors to 1 torque sensor!Blah blah.
Mr Expert in everything, what evidence do you have to say that a lot of e-bike owners are lazy riders. A sample of 5 people you spoke to?
I think you are right: cheap Chinese bikes use the same quality components as expensive German ones. I never understood why they don't offer a 2 year warranty too on all components (including the batteries)...
Rob....there is no question that the longest life Lithium batteries are Lithium Iron Phosphate(LifePo4)invented for weather station use and now solar farm use,some are now 20 years old.Seems to me Bosch batteries do not wear out as quickly as some Chinese ones.
No noticeable loss in capacity on my three, which are now approaching four years old.
The management system on the motor/battery/charger may also assist longevity.
Bosch batteries are about twice the price, so they need to last twice as long to give equivalent value to a cheap Chinese battery.
Only time will tell, but no noticeable decline in nearly four years suggests my batteries will last a while yet, unless their capacity falls off a cliff next week, which it could.The average for a Lithium Ion battery is probably about 3-4 years,are the Bosch batteries good for 6-8 years?
Right...That is why I don't put a 2 year warranty on these bikes,some people look after their bikes,some abuse them...2 years gives them longer to abuse them.
Nothing personal,but this is reality in the e-bike world.
Tom....I think you are misreading my postings I have specifically said that. I use the best components within the budget allocated to the model,if you read above I have openly criticised the awful components used in the cheapest Chinese bikes imported into the UK.Right...
So you don't give 2-year warranty on your bikes because "customers would abuse them". Apart from that, you are confident your cheap components and battery would allow you to give a 2-year warranty.
Makes no sense. Surely, if you have so much confidence in your Chinese batteries, you should give a longer warranty. I am not sure how someone would abuse a battery more...
No indeed, but then I haven't purchased one of those bikes.Have you ever read the terms and conditions of the warranty on say a Specialised or Bianchi bike?
I am sure they are very confident in their products if they are providing a 2-year warranty on all electronic components and batteries (and 5 years on frames), and it was surely a big plus for me when looking for a bike.I bet Kalkhoff regret putting 2 year warranties on those Impulse motors
I do keep the bike reasonably clean, and maintain well the chain (wiped after each 2-3 hour trip) and lubricated with dry lube.Out of interest Tom,how much maintenance time do you expect to commit to maintaining your bike? How long would you expect your bike to travel without needing a good service?
Then why those "better quality" Chinese batteries (or the ones provided by Kudos) don't come with a 2-year warranty then? Your argument is that quality is the same, but then I don't understand why your bikes don't come with an extended warranty in that case (and you can't really abuse a battery, so the user can't "abuse" such warranty).Most of the cells used are Panasonic or Samsung on the better quality Chinese batteries,these cells are also extensively used in Germany.
AgreedYou tend to get a warrantee on a higher end bike as the components are better quality.
Also the higher price dictates any potential buyer would be looking for peace of mind.
Read the previous posts. They are saying that their batteries are of the same quality and as durable, so why not the same warranty?Kudos are rightly concerned about giving a longer warrantee on a product that is less durable. Albeit in line with the price tag.
I am conscious that this conversation should be moved to another more relevant thread. I do put 2 years warranty on my LifePo4 batteries.No indeed, but then I haven't purchased one of those bikes.
Not sure the relevance of this on a Kalkhoff related thread. I am not aware of any specific restrictions from Kalkhoff on their warranty. I am sure "reasonable use and maintenance" is expected in the wording.
I am sure they are very confident in their products if they are providing a 2-year warranty on all electronic components and batteries (and 5 years on frames), and it was surely a big plus for me when looking for a bike.
Yes, about 5-6 people have reported issues with the Impulse motors, but I am not sure about the statistical relevance compared to the volume of sales. Given the number of sales in the UK and Europe, 50 people or so reporting the same issue would start making it a proper manufacturing defect, and it's not the case.
I do keep the bike reasonably clean, and maintain well the chain (wiped after each 2-3 hour trip) and lubricated with dry lube.
I check the tires pressure periodically, but nothing else done apart from that, in the last 1,600 miles.
I expect to have the brake pads changed when they start losing efficiency (not the case yet), and change the chain probably in the next hundreds of miles (although it does not show signs of wear, after 1,600 miles, which has surprised me). If I change the chain before it's too worn out, then the rest of the transmission should be fine.
I am not a bike mechanic, but can replace the chain myself, as it's a KMC with a quick link (and I have the exact same part/lenght).
Therefore, to answer your question, the bike does not seem to need a lot of maintenance, and may not have to go to a workshop until it has done 2,500 - 3,000 miles.
Back to your original comment:
Then why those "better quality" Chinese batteries (or the ones provided by Kudos) don't come with a 2-year warranty then? Your argument is that quality is the same, but then I don't understand why your bikes don't come with an extended warranty in that case (and you can't really abuse a battery, so the user can't "abuse" such warranty).
I suggest that Kudos cycle offers a 2-year warranty on all its batteries from today, just to confirm your points and confidence is your own products. Otherwise, it's just meaningless words in a forum.
My understanding is the longer life of LiPO4 is a scientifically proven fact.I am conscious that this conversation should be moved to another more relevant thread. I do put 2 years warranty on my LifePo4 batteries.
As far as durability is concerned it seems a matter of luck how long these batteries last,most use the Panasonic or Samsung cells,My experience is that a £500 battery doesn't last any longer than a £200 battery,but LifePo4 lasts the longest.
With the exception of the water bottle style battery,these battery shapes and fitment are pretty much unique to each bike style,so if your Kalkhoff battery fails you have to go back to Kalkhoff for a replacement,you have no alternative choice. It's not like the dry battery world where a AA battery can be bought from many sources.
I could charge a lot more for my batteries but I think it a selling feature of my bikes that my batteries are not expensive to replace.
Kalkhoff charge a lot for their batteries because they can,as a businessman I respect the profit they must make out of their batteries is an ongoing profit centre in their business. As a customer if you are prepared for the cost and can afford the cost,then why not?
How much is the replacement cost of a Kalkhoff battery?
I have a theory for that. Sure, there are 40/50 cells in a battery, you only need one of them to become defective to cause a problem. But because they are the same cells used in German bikes, that should not affect more than 1 battery out of a hundred in four or five years. I think the reason for more battery failures seen in Chinese bikes are due to the poor wiring in Chinese bikes. Only Bafang design and use screw-on connectors of the quality that is acceptable on German bikes.Most Chinese bikes use push on connectors with just one layer of water proofing (Bafang connectors have two) or none. You don't find bullet connectors or spring loaded bullet shaped battery contacts on German bikes. The sort of battery connectors seen on early round straight pull bottle batteries (John Cade's first e-bike has one of those). Nowadays, Chiinese batteries have much improved blade contact blocks and the reliability has improved accordingly.As far as durability is concerned it seems a matter of luck
Rob....when I first got involved in these bikes I did a lot of research about LifePo4 ,the Texan who invented it explained the chemistry differences between the various Lithium types,but I am not a chemist and it was lost on me.My understanding is the longer life of LiPO4 is a scientifically proven fact.
Happily for those of us with ludicrously expensive original equipment batteries, there are a handful of cheaper pattern alternatives.