why is this even up for debate?

[jamesporritt]

My brother was knocked off his motorbike last month and lost his right leg.

What happened where?

 

[Ghost1951]

The story about the family member losing a leg is tragic and horrible, but all too common.

Many drivers treat the task of driving like they were sitting at home in an armchair watching TV. They are often inattentive, careless, and cavalier about the safety of others.

I knew of someone who was knocked off his bicycle on a mini round about - clipped by a close passing car. It did not stop. He fell and banged his head. He was wearing a helmet, got up and went home, but was never the same again. He had serious cognitive issues afterwards. He died about three years later at an early age.

Who cares?

No one.

The incident is probably just a line in a police computer somewhere, with 'No Further Action' recorded against it.

Being realistic, unless someone produced dash cam evidence, or had the opportunity to record the registration number, and report it, there is not much anyone could do to track down the driver.

Two motorcyclists I knew have been killed in the last 12 years. Neither was at fault. One was run over by a large SUV on a roundabout. The driver got away with it. The other was killed by a farmer who turned right in front of him from the opposing carriageway, directly into his path. He was an experienced rider who used to volunteer as a safety instructor of newer riders for Durham Police. Much good that did him - sadly.

EVERY motorcyclist can tell you numerous horrible tales of car and other drivers pulling out of side roads into their path. I certainly can. I have three motorbikes. None of them has been out this year yet. Unless you ride slowly on the less busy roads, you are at massive risk. Even then, ridiculous things happen.

 

[volt x]

Now you are making assumptions and just being silly and insulting. My stance is definitely NOT that I'm above the law, no-one is.

But when the law theatens life and actually takes lives, as the white line law has on so many occasions, one is entitled to defend oneself on those occasions.

After 73 years of driving, similar of cycling and some 54 years of motorcycling, there's not a road accident scar on me or anyone else, so I'll continue to trust my judgement and ignore your closed mind one.
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Then your stance is to encourage others into using the box or going over the white line. As you see this as a safety measure for motorcyclists. Yet it is still against the law so perhaps technically you might be seen to be inciting to breaking the law.

In all the years I've been using the London roads I've never seen a motorcyclist being hit by a car at traffic lights as you have described. Most bikers are probably hit by drivers pulling out at a junction. I remember the TV campaign to get drivers to watch out for bikers, when pulling out.

The question is who's being silly, me for advocating the proper use of traffic lights. You for as you put it defending themselves against the white line law. The bigger question is, how far past the white line is okay. I was going to say legitimate but everyone knows it's not.

 

[flecc]

In all the years I've been using the London roads I've never seen a motorcyclist being hit by a car at traffic lights as you have described.

Nor have I and I've never described anything of the sort.

My mention, if you reread my posts, is of two wheelers being crushed by left turning trucks, killing the riders when leaving the lights. Many of them, up to ten or more every year, a subject we discussed in depth long ago. I see now that you've only joined pedelecs this year so it's perhaps not surprising you know so little about this subject.

And it seems you also know nothing about how optional some traffic related laws are, with the government's official published approval.
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[volt x]

The post you're referring to, you first mention motorcyclist and the further on you mention two wheelers. I assumed you were still talking bikers. Yes I did miss the point you made about turning left. To which the majority of injuries happen to cyclists. No decent biker should be in that position.

Now we keep mentioning the white line. Just to clarify are we talking about the same line. The one I refer to is the final one at the lights and not at the start of the box.

This is my personal experience of an incident where a moped rider is stopped in front of me at a very busy set of lights. It's a road going onto the Camden road near the Holloway prison, that's was gone even then.
I always turn left to go up the Camden but have to cross two lanes to get to the right turning lane that gets me home. Bus lane , lane to Camden then my lane home.

This rider takes out his phone and misses the lights going green by seconds. That holds me up and also the driver behind me. Now when I move onto the Camden rd I'm moving to the outside lane. Usually this is fine as the good drivers have stopped before the box in order that cyclists have a fraction more to get ahead.
That's the point of the box is it not.

This time the driver quite rightly has started to move whilst I'm stuck behind the rider. When I eventually move the driver is right up my rear and I'm moving towards the outside lane. I hear the driver shouting at me and saying I should be in the bus lane. I shout back I'm turning right, he then tells me I should be indicating that. If I did that I would be doing so as if I was about to do a U turn. Anyway I want both hands on my bike as there is a hill and I need my wits about me. More words were exchanged I got home in one piece.

Who was in the wrong here, as far as I'm concerned it was the rider in the box for cyclists on his phone and taking away the fraction of time that helps cyclists to get home safely.

 

[thelarkbox]

Didnt quite follow the U turn logic in para-5 above , but eveyone can err on occasion, and dicks can drive 4x and 2x wheeled vehicles.

If i understand the scenario above, yes you should have been indicating your intent to move right even if you think some may misunderstand your intent for a Uturn as that is a far more significant maneuver requiring more attention from fellow road users.. So while not ideal woud be more safe.

Not to excuse the chap on his phone misusing the cyclist box, and bad timing bringing you and they together..

**** happens, try and exit with a smile and not a scowl even if its forced.
(edit that last bit is more a reminder to myself.. i dont always succeed there..)

 

[flecc]

The post you're referring to, you first mention motorcyclist and the further on you mention two wheelers. I assumed you were still talking bikers. Yes I did miss the point you made about turning left. To which the majority of injuries happen to cyclists. No decent biker should be in that position.

Now we keep mentioning the white line. Just to clarify are we talking about the same line. The one I refer to is the final one at the lights and not at the start of the box.

This is my personal experience of an incident where a moped rider is stopped in front of me at a very busy set of lights. It's a road going onto the Camden road near the Holloway prison, that's was gone even then.
I always turn left to go up the Camden but have to cross two lanes to get to the right turning lane that gets me home. Bus lane , lane to Camden then my lane home.

This rider takes out his phone and misses the lights going green by seconds. That holds me up and also the driver behind me. Now when I move onto the Camden rd I'm moving to the outside lane. Usually this is fine as the good drivers have stopped before the box in order that cyclists have a fraction more to get ahead.
That's the point of the box is it not.

This time the driver quite rightly has started to move whilst I'm stuck behind the rider. When I eventually move the driver is right up my rear and I'm moving towards the outside lane. I hear the driver shouting at me and saying I should be in the bus lane. I shout back I'm turning right, he then tells me I should be indicating that. If I did that I would be doing so as if I was about to do a U turn. Anyway I want both hands on my bike as there is a hill and I need my wits about me. More words were exchanged I got home in one piece.

Who was in the wrong here, as far as I'm concerned it was the rider in the box for cyclists on his phone and taking away the fraction of time that helps cyclists to get home safely.

A one off unique occasion so hardly a major inconvenience in all your journeys. I prefer all two wheeler riders to be able to use the safety of that reserved box or even stop ahead of it when there is doubt about being seen from a high cab truck. Most of the powered ones I see doing it in in London seem to be mopeds, often on deliveries

Clearly I'm a much more patient and even tempered a person than you, since such minor things don't bother me, so long as everyone on the roads completes their journey safely.
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[volt x]

A one off unique occasion so hardly a major inconvenience in all your journeys. I prefer all two wheeler riders to be able to use the safety of that reserved box or even stop ahead of it when there is doubt about being seen from a high cab truck. Most of the powered ones I see doing it in in London seem to be mopeds, often on deliveries

Clearly I'm a much more patient and even tempered a person than you, since such minor things don't bother me, so long as everyone on the roads completes their journey safely.
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Clearly you don't know this area of London as I do. Also not a one off by any means. I have cars behind me beeping the horns for me to move out of their way. Now I'm on the third lane on the left, the second lane is full of cars and the first is the bus lane. Where am I supposed to go, I'm moving at 16mph on a 20mph road.

Then there are the drivers that use this right turning lane as an overtaking one. Depending on any traffic on the second lane, I may have to contend with the driver trying to get onto the middle lane.

This section of the Camden road has been and is a dangerous one. Where I turn off now has pedestrian lights, installed because of the amount of people killed or injured by speeding traffic that just recently got past the speed camera down the road.

Further up the road happens to be where my brother had his RTC . His journey didn't end safely.

 

[volt x]

Didnt quite follow the U turn logic in para-5 above , but eveyone can err on occasion, and dicks can drive 4x and 2x wheeled vehicles.

If i understand the scenario above, yes you should have been indicating your intent to move right even if you think some may misunderstand your intent for a Uturn as that is a far more significant maneuver requiring more attention from fellow road users.. So while not ideal woud be more safe.

Not to excuse the chap on his phone misusing the cyclist box, and bad timing bringing you and they together..

**** happens, try and exit with a smile and not a scowl even if its forced.
(edit that last bit is more a reminder to myself.. i dont always succeed there..)

The funny thing is most of the drivers turning left never indicate and I'm not saying just to make me look better. When I turn onto the road I'm heading straight for the outside lane. Now any cars behind me and going the same way don't indicate as there isn't time to do it.

So let's look at it as is. I'm turning left and should be indicating using my left hand and I've just started moving from traffic lights. Then immediately I have to change hands to indicate with my right hand to show I'm moving to the outside lane I'm already in. All this going up a hill, it's not a big hill by any means. Now more often than not everything goes reasonably well. This time because of a biker holding everybody up. I have the driver behind me having a go at me.

 

[flecc]

Clearly you don't know this area of London as I do. Also not a one off by any means. I have cars behind me beeping the horns for me to move out of their way.

This section of the Camden road has been and is a dangerous one. Where I turn off now has pedestrian lights, installed because of the amount of people killed or injured by speeding traffic that just recently got past the speed camera down the road.

True, I used to know it but that was long time ago. My area of London used to be like it, drivers beeping at cyclists etc., but it's totally changed now and I think you'd be amazed at how pleasant it is now for ALL our road users.

Three things over the last ten years have brought about most of this transformation. The first is a borough wide 20mph speed limit, only through roads having 30 mph. The second is the way that speed limiting has transformed driver behaviour for the better, and the third thing is the way that has led drivers to observe the big changes benefitting vulnerable road users in the new Highway Code since 29th January 2022. The courtesy often seen now really is a pleasure to see, with even "White Van Man" often being an example to others.
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