why is this even up for debate?
- Thread starter passionate off roader
- Start date
G
Ghost1951
Guest
The story about the family member losing a leg is tragic and horrible, but all too common.
Many drivers treat the task of driving like they were sitting at home in an armchair watching TV. They are often inattentive, careless, and cavalier about the safety of others.
I knew of someone who was knocked off his bicycle on a mini round about - clipped by a close passing car. It did not stop. He fell and banged his head. He was wearing a helmet, got up and went home, but was never the same again. He had serious cognitive issues afterwards. He died about three years later at an early age.
Who cares?
No one.
The incident is probably just a line in a police computer somewhere, with 'No Further Action' recorded against it.
Being realistic, unless someone produced dash cam evidence, or had the opportunity to record the registration number, and report it, there is not much anyone could do to track down the driver.
Two motorcyclists I knew have been killed in the last 12 years. Neither was at fault. One was run over by a large SUV on a roundabout. The driver got away with it. The other was killed by a farmer who turned right in front of him from the opposing carriageway, directly into his path. He was an experienced rider who used to volunteer as a safety instructor of newer riders for Durham Police. Much good that did him - sadly.
EVERY motorcyclist can tell you numerous horrible tales of car and other drivers pulling out of side roads into their path. I certainly can. I have three motorbikes. None of them has been out this year yet. Unless you ride slowly on the less busy roads, you are at massive risk. Even then, ridiculous things happen.
Many drivers treat the task of driving like they were sitting at home in an armchair watching TV. They are often inattentive, careless, and cavalier about the safety of others.
I knew of someone who was knocked off his bicycle on a mini round about - clipped by a close passing car. It did not stop. He fell and banged his head. He was wearing a helmet, got up and went home, but was never the same again. He had serious cognitive issues afterwards. He died about three years later at an early age.
Who cares?
No one.
The incident is probably just a line in a police computer somewhere, with 'No Further Action' recorded against it.
Being realistic, unless someone produced dash cam evidence, or had the opportunity to record the registration number, and report it, there is not much anyone could do to track down the driver.
Two motorcyclists I knew have been killed in the last 12 years. Neither was at fault. One was run over by a large SUV on a roundabout. The driver got away with it. The other was killed by a farmer who turned right in front of him from the opposing carriageway, directly into his path. He was an experienced rider who used to volunteer as a safety instructor of newer riders for Durham Police. Much good that did him - sadly.
EVERY motorcyclist can tell you numerous horrible tales of car and other drivers pulling out of side roads into their path. I certainly can. I have three motorbikes. None of them has been out this year yet. Unless you ride slowly on the less busy roads, you are at massive risk. Even then, ridiculous things happen.
Then your stance is to encourage others into using the box or going over the white line. As you see this as a safety measure for motorcyclists. Yet it is still against the law so perhaps technically you might be seen to be inciting to breaking the law.
In all the years I've been using the London roads I've never seen a motorcyclist being hit by a car at traffic lights as you have described. Most bikers are probably hit by drivers pulling out at a junction. I remember the TV campaign to get drivers to watch out for bikers, when pulling out.
The question is who's being silly, me for advocating the proper use of traffic lights. You for as you put it defending themselves against the white line law. The bigger question is, how far past the white line is okay. I was going to say legitimate but everyone knows it's not.
Nor have I and I've never described anything of the sort.
My mention, if you reread my posts, is of two wheelers being crushed by left turning trucks, killing the riders when leaving the lights. Many of them, up to ten or more every year, a subject we discussed in depth long ago. I see now that you've only joined pedelecs this year so it's perhaps not surprising you know so little about this subject.
And it seems you also know nothing about how optional some traffic related laws are, with the government's official published approval.
.
The post you're referring to, you first mention motorcyclist and the further on you mention two wheelers. I assumed you were still talking bikers. Yes I did miss the point you made about turning left. To which the majority of injuries happen to cyclists. No decent biker should be in that position.
Now we keep mentioning the white line. Just to clarify are we talking about the same line. The one I refer to is the final one at the lights and not at the start of the box.
This is my personal experience of an incident where a moped rider is stopped in front of me at a very busy set of lights. It's a road going onto the Camden road near the Holloway prison, that's was gone even then.
I always turn left to go up the Camden but have to cross two lanes to get to the right turning lane that gets me home. Bus lane , lane to Camden then my lane home.
This rider takes out his phone and misses the lights going green by seconds. That holds me up and also the driver behind me. Now when I move onto the Camden rd I'm moving to the outside lane. Usually this is fine as the good drivers have stopped before the box in order that cyclists have a fraction more to get ahead.
That's the point of the box is it not.
This time the driver quite rightly has started to move whilst I'm stuck behind the rider. When I eventually move the driver is right up my rear and I'm moving towards the outside lane. I hear the driver shouting at me and saying I should be in the bus lane. I shout back I'm turning right, he then tells me I should be indicating that. If I did that I would be doing so as if I was about to do a U turn. Anyway I want both hands on my bike as there is a hill and I need my wits about me. More words were exchanged I got home in one piece.
Who was in the wrong here, as far as I'm concerned it was the rider in the box for cyclists on his phone and taking away the fraction of time that helps cyclists to get home safely.
Now we keep mentioning the white line. Just to clarify are we talking about the same line. The one I refer to is the final one at the lights and not at the start of the box.
This is my personal experience of an incident where a moped rider is stopped in front of me at a very busy set of lights. It's a road going onto the Camden road near the Holloway prison, that's was gone even then.
I always turn left to go up the Camden but have to cross two lanes to get to the right turning lane that gets me home. Bus lane , lane to Camden then my lane home.
This rider takes out his phone and misses the lights going green by seconds. That holds me up and also the driver behind me. Now when I move onto the Camden rd I'm moving to the outside lane. Usually this is fine as the good drivers have stopped before the box in order that cyclists have a fraction more to get ahead.
That's the point of the box is it not.
This time the driver quite rightly has started to move whilst I'm stuck behind the rider. When I eventually move the driver is right up my rear and I'm moving towards the outside lane. I hear the driver shouting at me and saying I should be in the bus lane. I shout back I'm turning right, he then tells me I should be indicating that. If I did that I would be doing so as if I was about to do a U turn. Anyway I want both hands on my bike as there is a hill and I need my wits about me. More words were exchanged I got home in one piece.
Who was in the wrong here, as far as I'm concerned it was the rider in the box for cyclists on his phone and taking away the fraction of time that helps cyclists to get home safely.
Didnt quite follow the U turn logic in para-5 above , but eveyone can err on occasion, and dicks can drive 4x and 2x wheeled vehicles.
If i understand the scenario above, yes you should have been indicating your intent to move right even if you think some may misunderstand your intent for a Uturn as that is a far more significant maneuver requiring more attention from fellow road users.. So while not ideal woud be more safe.
Not to excuse the chap on his phone misusing the cyclist box, and bad timing bringing you and they together..
**** happens, try and exit with a smile and not a scowl even if its forced.
(edit that last bit is more a reminder to myself.. i dont always succeed there..)
If i understand the scenario above, yes you should have been indicating your intent to move right even if you think some may misunderstand your intent for a Uturn as that is a far more significant maneuver requiring more attention from fellow road users.. So while not ideal woud be more safe.
Not to excuse the chap on his phone misusing the cyclist box, and bad timing bringing you and they together..
**** happens, try and exit with a smile and not a scowl even if its forced.
(edit that last bit is more a reminder to myself.. i dont always succeed there..)
Last edited:
A one off unique occasion so hardly a major inconvenience in all your journeys. I prefer all two wheeler riders to be able to use the safety of that reserved box or even stop ahead of it when there is doubt about being seen from a high cab truck. Most of the powered ones I see doing it in in London seem to be mopeds, often on deliveries
Clearly I'm a much more patient and even tempered a person than you, since such minor things don't bother me, so long as everyone on the roads completes their journey safely.
.
Last edited:
Clearly you don't know this area of London as I do. Also not a one off by any means. I have cars behind me beeping the horns for me to move out of their way. Now I'm on the third lane on the left, the second lane is full of cars and the first is the bus lane. Where am I supposed to go, I'm moving at 16mph on a 20mph road.
Then there are the drivers that use this right turning lane as an overtaking one. Depending on any traffic on the second lane, I may have to contend with the driver trying to get onto the middle lane.
This section of the Camden road has been and is a dangerous one. Where I turn off now has pedestrian lights, installed because of the amount of people killed or injured by speeding traffic that just recently got past the speed camera down the road.
Further up the road happens to be where my brother had his RTC . His journey didn't end safely.
The funny thing is most of the drivers turning left never indicate and I'm not saying just to make me look better. When I turn onto the road I'm heading straight for the outside lane. Now any cars behind me and going the same way don't indicate as there isn't time to do it.
So let's look at it as is. I'm turning left and should be indicating using my left hand and I've just started moving from traffic lights. Then immediately I have to change hands to indicate with my right hand to show I'm moving to the outside lane I'm already in. All this going up a hill, it's not a big hill by any means. Now more often than not everything goes reasonably well. This time because of a biker holding everybody up. I have the driver behind me having a go at me.
True, I used to know it but that was long time ago. My area of London used to be like it, drivers beeping at cyclists etc., but it's totally changed now and I think you'd be amazed at how pleasant it is now for ALL our road users.
Three things over the last ten years have brought about most of this transformation. The first is a borough wide 20mph speed limit, only through roads having 30 mph. The second is the way that speed limiting has transformed driver behaviour for the better, and the third thing is the way that has led drivers to observe the big changes benefitting vulnerable road users in the new Highway Code since 29th January 2022. The courtesy often seen now really is a pleasure to see, with even "White Van Man" often being an example to others.
.
I rode in various parts of London on a motorcycle, bicycle and driven a car For about 10 years.
only once was I nearly taken out by a panel van Turing left but was prepared for this by the the van suddenly slowing down before turning left without indicating. By this point I had the brakes on so as not be travelling on his near side.
whilst I agree there are some appalling drivers and riders on our roads, this makes it more import to ride defensively at all times
I cannot understand why a cyclist would pull up on the near side of a vehicle with restricted vision such as a lorry or closed back van.
Where front of queue bike lanes exist one needs to be out in front so you are clearly visible. Even where these aren't provided I have in the past stopped just over the stop line so as to be noticed By the car in fron.
Oher things I have done is sat back on the inside of a car, tapped on the window and signalled to the driver I’m going straight on. i usually got a wave or thumbs up although I did on a couple of occasions receive a gesture not recognised in the Highway Code which basically indicates look out there’s an Ahole driving a car.
Being hi vized may not be a legal requirement but if it gets you seen that got to be a bonus.
Much to the disagreement of others I’ve always found bus and black cab drivers to be more cyclist aware and generally courteous. That might be due to me going to the trouble of being bight yellow and giving clear hand signals..
only once was I nearly taken out by a panel van Turing left but was prepared for this by the the van suddenly slowing down before turning left without indicating. By this point I had the brakes on so as not be travelling on his near side.
whilst I agree there are some appalling drivers and riders on our roads, this makes it more import to ride defensively at all times
I cannot understand why a cyclist would pull up on the near side of a vehicle with restricted vision such as a lorry or closed back van.
Where front of queue bike lanes exist one needs to be out in front so you are clearly visible. Even where these aren't provided I have in the past stopped just over the stop line so as to be noticed By the car in fron.
Oher things I have done is sat back on the inside of a car, tapped on the window and signalled to the driver I’m going straight on. i usually got a wave or thumbs up although I did on a couple of occasions receive a gesture not recognised in the Highway Code which basically indicates look out there’s an Ahole driving a car.
Being hi vized may not be a legal requirement but if it gets you seen that got to be a bonus.
Much to the disagreement of others I’ve always found bus and black cab drivers to be more cyclist aware and generally courteous. That might be due to me going to the trouble of being bight yellow and giving clear hand signals..
Last edited:
You mentioned in the past you've stopped over the stop line in order for drivers to see you. A former work colleague of mine was challenged by the police for being over the stop line. He was riding his bicycle, you would think the police had better things to do.
We can't make up our own rules when driving or cycling on the roads. All data or most of it will say cyclists are at more risk when wearing a helmet possibly hi vis. I can't tell the difference when it comes to bus and taxi drivers. I wear a helmet but never hi vis and I doubt it would make the slightest difference to either of these drivers when sharing the road with cyclists. In broad daylight if you can't see me, then you're not paying attention.
I never have any problems seeing a cyclist without hi vis, so why can't a driver. Is it because drivers are driving faster, is it because they have a large sheet of glass in front of them. I remember the safety ad on TV years ago concerning motorists pulling out at junctions and not seeing motor bikes on the road they are moving onto.
That might be explained as the biker is moving fast and has the ad said. Sometimes it's not as easy to see bikers when pulling out so pay more attention. That doesn't explain why drivers can't see cyclists.
I use bloody bright lights fore and aft. The rear red 1800 lumen flashes at all times, the three up front (6000 lumen total) I keep constant at night, one or two headlights flashing in daylight, the other(s) constant... and the reason why I went to the trouble of installing all of these lights, is because I got sick and tired at drivers looking directly at my hi-viz top to toe clad self, and still pulling out at junctions. Hasn't happened since, and before anyone harps on about dazzling, my lights are angled down and don't dazzle any of my driver friends. You lot can do what you like.
(Old pic with only one headlight and one laser)
(Photo snapped at a low angle, and with light angled up for effect)
(Old video, I've rearranged the headlights since)
...and the reason why I went to the trouble of stuffing this into the end of my handlebar, is because I got sick and tired of drivers fast passing too damn close. One or two have got close to this handlebar mounted lollipop since over the past couple of years, but not to me. If they ever collide with this lollipop, that won't affect my steering because it swivels away - I've tested this by running the lollipop against lamposts, railings, posts, and hedges. The only hedges which are it's kryptonite, are the ones covered in bindweed, which do cause drag.
However you do it, you've got to mitigate the risks of cyclist invisibility for yourself. Drivers aint going to change for the better.
(Old pic with only one headlight and one laser)
(Photo snapped at a low angle, and with light angled up for effect)
(Old video, I've rearranged the headlights since)
...and the reason why I went to the trouble of stuffing this into the end of my handlebar, is because I got sick and tired of drivers fast passing too damn close. One or two have got close to this handlebar mounted lollipop since over the past couple of years, but not to me. If they ever collide with this lollipop, that won't affect my steering because it swivels away - I've tested this by running the lollipop against lamposts, railings, posts, and hedges. The only hedges which are it's kryptonite, are the ones covered in bindweed, which do cause drag.
However you do it, you've got to mitigate the risks of cyclist invisibility for yourself. Drivers aint going to change for the better.
Last edited:
When I say over the line I’m talking a few feet.
Ive always worn an enclosed cycle helmet and hi viz jacket Waterproof or mesh depending on the weather. At night I have a refractor torch on low wide beam setting with a taped on hood the shines on the hi vix which makes me stand our at night to driver waiting to pull out at junctions.
As a motorcyclist and pedal cyclist and being a heath a safety advisor accident investigator I think there benefit to both. A clean bright full hiv can make one stand out more from one’s surroundings thats why they’re a must on construction site where ones working near plant. It can be the difference between a driver seeing or not seeing you.
Drivers are target fixed and looking for big things that will harm them and don’t pick up on cyclists being narrow. You and other cyclist don’t suffer this as they tend to look out for fellow cyclists as they are more hazard aware.
Last edited:
I have an otherwise unfit for purpose Bafang headlight soldered to my ebike battery, mounted on the handlebar pointed backwards at my hi-viz blouson. Because hi-viz is inviz without light shone on the stuff. Mustn't wait to be revealed by oncoming headlights, rabbit stylee. Said light is labelled "4" in this pic:
Soldered, because I can't stand having to charge so much stuff before going for a ride. The charge stuff situation is bad enough already.
Last edited:
Blimey you’ve some gizmos on that.
I fitted motorcycle mirrors and led indicators to mine powered by 12v 1.2 ah alarm battery as my balance is a bit shot. As you have done I originally had mine connected the 36v battery using a voltage convertor but the display didn't
like it so went down the route of the alarm battery , which don’t need charging that often..
I fitted motorcycle mirrors and led indicators to mine powered by 12v 1.2 ah alarm battery as my balance is a bit shot. As you have done I originally had mine connected the 36v battery using a voltage convertor but the display didn't
like it so went down the route of the alarm battery , which don’t need charging that often..
Not really, the switches are just to control lights and their flash/constant modes. I wanted a switch for a hub motor... to drill into tyres which pass too close like in one of the Bond films, and the chariot in Ben Hur. But the lollipop gizmo on the right works too well at keeping those away, so happily I don't need a hub motor with it's mysterious WTF PLC settings for anything.
The work colleague I mentioned was only over the line by a front wheel. The emphasis for our safety on the roads is down to us all. By what you seem to be saying is cyclists need to be more visible because motorists are target fixed on things that will harm them. By that reasoning all pedestrians should make themselves more visible.
I agree on a country lane at night a pedestrian would do well to be more visible as would a cyclist. I'm not talking about night time travel. I'm referring to daylight travel. Now drivers that are not looking out for all things on the road that might damage them or vice versa. Are ultimately bad drivers and shouldn't be on the roads.
If a driver doesn't see a cyclist or a motorbike rider pulling out at a junction. Then that driver needs to take the time to make sure their path is clear.
In court the drivers defense is, well they didn't have hi vis how could I see them. Is that a defense no the driver wasn't paying enough attention. How many times has a car pulled out with an oncoming car, it happens all to often.
I do agree with you the more visible we are the better our chances of not being hit are. In the end it has to come down to all and our attention when using the roads.
Related Articles
-
MTF Enterprises announces acquisition of EMU Electric Bikes- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Wisper 806T folding bike wins Which? ‘Best Buy’- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Sustrans calls for protected cycle lanes- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Amazon launch their first UK e-cargo micromobility hub- Started by: Pedelecs
