November 7, 201213 yr Actually there is one section near me where there is a cycle path that goes under the motorway and avoids two busy roundabouts where there is exit and entry to the motorway,but after that you are back on dual carriageway either side . Mind you three miles in the other direction and i am heading into countryside so i suppose you can't win all the time.... Yes, they are trying to improve cycling facilities in many areas, but ours is a small island and our towns and cities are old and closely built-up, so complete solutions are near to impossible. If we did everything everywhere like that photo I showed above, we'd start to look like the nightmare of Los Angeles which looks more like a vast road junction than a city.
November 7, 201213 yr I just think it needs guts and determination to get anything done, mixed with a little bit of 'harmless' civil disobedience I think if we wait for MP's to help we will ALL be long gone..... The older I get the more 'anti establishment/anti pathetic rules' I get.......I really fancy being a true revolutionary when I grow up I still think my idea of mass demonstrations (yes, Dave good idea to spread it to cities around the country ) except.......would there be enough of us ?? Doubtful, but we could suck it and see..... I dont mind standing up to be counted and pushing the limits.....after all, if I end up being jailed, it would solve the 'is my pension going to be enough' problem..... I could spend my later days living in luxury courtesy of H.M.P.S........just as long as I could take the dogs Seriously though.....I really really dont think lobbying MP's would do any good ......good god, how long is it taking to just get a ruling on a blooming throttle !!!!! We need to be heard en masse..... At the end of the day it just depends how many people think strongly enough about the necessity to encourage more cycling by speeding up the creation, and joining up, as many traffic free routes as possible.......if anyone cares to start the ball rolling count me in for a mass demo wherever you like, I dont mind travelling.........and, although it is a personal decision as Dave says, I think the dealers on here could get together and organise it for us all to go to....seeing as they will all become millionaires on the back of all those extra e-bike sales in the future But then again, if not enough people give a monkeys then we all deserve what we have ,and we will just have to 'put up or shut up '...... Lynda
November 7, 201213 yr I think there are several aspects to the problem of getting the UK to take up e-biking en-masse. 1. Obesity. Sorry, but it's true. Despite the big success of the Olympics, we are as a nation very, very unfit. In Holland, Germany, Spain , Italy and Portugal the average family is far more athletic than here. I think that if day time TV were reduced or even cut out altogether a percentage of the stay at homes might revise their ideas. Fewer chips for school lunches would also help - and no, I am not trying to be patronising. I am not exactly skinny myself. 2. The density of traffic, especially in the south east, terrifies many people who if they lived in Europe would be out on their bike and riding. Can't see how to solve this one, save create motorway charges like in France and bump up road tax? 3. The lack of cycle paths and general facilities (eg e-bike charging points) because of council spending cuts, 4. The high cost of electric bikes. Your average Brit relates to things like vacuum cleaners, washing machines, kettles, PCs. You can buy a Chinese-made imported moped for less than £600 - so why should an electric bike cost more? After all, it only has a controller (costing what, £20?) a battery (should cost less than £100 in most peoples' eyes, after all, what does a car battery cost?) and a motor - some big metal chunk in the back of a wheel, value c £90. Add that to the value of a bike you can typically get at Halfords for £99 and you have the general perception that an E bike should cost less than £500. Of course we all know that it isn't that simple. But unless you can get the total cost of e-biking down to a very reasonable level - eg less than £2 per day, for example - you are not going to win round the masses. I would be very happy to support Dave (Kudos) and Lynda with a national demo day - in fact I' m getting my banner ready as we speak (takes me back to my student days). Maybe we also need to get the big guys (ie TV and radio) or some celebrities on board to really make an impact. A big name works wonders......anyone know anyone famous? Hatti
November 7, 201213 yr I think there are several aspects to the problem of getting the UK to take up e-biking en-masse. 1. Obesity. Sorry, but it's true. Despite the big success of the Olympics, we are as a nation very, very unfit. In Holland, Germany, Spain , Italy and Portugal the average family is far more athletic than here. I think that if day time TV were reduced or even cut out altogether a percentage of the stay at homes might revise their ideas. Fewer chips for school lunches would also help - and no, I am not trying to be patronising. I am not exactly skinny myself. 2. The density of traffic, especially in the south east, terrifies many people who if they lived in Europe would be out on their bike and riding. Can't see how to solve this one, save create motorway charges like in France and bump up road tax? 3. The lack of cycle paths and general facilities (eg e-bike charging points) because of council spending cuts, 4. The high cost of electric bikes. Your average Brit relates to things like vacuum cleaners, washing machines, kettles, PCs. You can buy a Chinese-made imported moped for less than £600 - so why should an electric bike cost more? After all, it only has a controller (costing what, £20?) a battery (should cost less than £100 in most peoples' eyes, after all, what does a car battery cost?) and a motor - some big metal chunk in the back of a wheel, value c £90. Add that to the value of a bike you can typically get at Halfords for £99 and you have the general perception that an E bike should cost less than £500. Of course we all know that it isn't that simple. But unless you can get the total cost of e-biking down to a very reasonable level - eg less than £2 per day, for example - you are not going to win round the masses. I would be very happy to support Dave (Kudos) and Lynda with a national demo day - in fact I' m getting my banner ready as we speak (takes me back to my student days). Maybe we also need to get the big guys (ie TV and radio) or some celebrities on board to really make an impact. A big name works wonders......anyone know anyone famous? Hatti Ah...now your talking hatti....national demo day...banners....MUST get national tv.....lets have a serious think about celebrities. But back to your points....obesity.....hold my hands up here HOWEVER the GREAT thing about e-bikes is that obesity or not....we can STILL ride e-bikes Before I got my first one I would never have been able to ride further than the end of the very flat lane, now I can do up to 50 miles a day if I have the chance.....however I will admit that those days only really happen when Im on holiday and enjoying traffic free routes. Ive managed to keep over 3 stone off since those first days and only my addiction to chocolate and comfort eating ( and a teeny bit of Rose' ) ( ok ok...and a teeny bit of laziness ) keeps me yo yo' ing over the last 2 Costs of bikes....well, I dont know....you have some bikes around £600.....can hardly buy a decent phone for that lol.....people will find the money for anything IF they want to...trick is to convince them they DO want it......so I dont know if price would stop people.....and you will be set to reap the benefits there hatti As for your other points...traffic/lack of cycle paths....thats what we will be demonstrating for. So.....we NEED a celebrity to come on board.......anyone ?? Lynda
November 7, 201213 yr Does anyone know anyone famous? Well, I once met Jimmy Saville...Seriously, one aspect of the problem is that "us and them" attitude between cyclists and ebikers. If we were united we would have more clout, and after all we all want much the same thing. Another problem is that many ebikers do not have the means to travel long distances to demonstrations and "ebike fairs" etc. The only answer to that is "Think globally and act locally." The lack of cycle paths in Boston has led to a sort of unofficial shared use of pavements on a grand scale, to which the police largely turn a blind eye. Not an ideal situation, but a case of people doing the best they can. The roads are so congested that they are almost impossible much of the time. I have phoned the Council a couple of times to ask about the progress of a couple of proposed local cycle paths. All i get is a promise of a call back that never materialises.
November 7, 201213 yr Ah...now your talking hatti....national demo day...banners....MUST get national tv.....lets have a serious think about celebrities So.....we NEED a celebrity to come on board.......anyone ?? Lynda I never understand what the appeal of large demonstrations is, they virtually never achieve anything. Not sure about famous cyclists either. The Prime Minister cycles, the Mayor of London cycles, many MPs cycle daily, as do a number of members of the House of Lords. Sir George Young's All Party Parliamentary Cycling Group has 135 members, not bad out of some 650 MPs and a far larger proportion of cyclists than that of the country at large. Short of getting The Queen on a bike, I'm not sure how much more can be done to influence change
November 7, 201213 yr ....I really fancy being a true revolutionary when I grow up... You already are, or to be more precise...you're a CAVALIER A little late-night reading for you. Spiral of Silence
November 7, 201213 yr You already are, or to be more precise...you're a CAVALIER A little late-night reading for you. Spiral of Silence Yes....you are right there Bob....I certainly dont, and never will, fear isolation Lynda
November 7, 201213 yr I never understand what the appeal of large demonstrations is, they virtually never achieve anything. Not sure about famous cyclists either. The Prime Minister cycles, the Mayor of London cycles, many MPs cycle daily, as do a number of members of the House of Lords. Sir George Young's All Party Parliamentary Cycling Group has 135 members, not bad out of some 650 MPs and a far larger proportion of cyclists than that of the country at large. Short of getting The Queen on a bike, I'm not sure how much more can be done to influence change I dont know Flecc....I believe a large demonstration achieves wider recognition and knowledge within the general public of the cause it supports......as has been demonstrated frequently in the past. As for famous people....good god...we arent talking politicians here.......we want someone like Robbie Williams or David Beckham cycling around London with us......THAT is what would get us the publicity needed. Anyone on first name terms ?..........come on....dont be shy..... Lynda
November 7, 201213 yr I believe a large demonstration achieves wider recognition and knowledge within the general public of the cause it supports......as has been demonstrated frequently in the past. I agree, but they don't actually do anything. The public sees, recognises and sometimes acknowledges, but to no avail. The anti-nuclear marches of the 1960s and '70s didn't get rid of those weapons. The miners protests against pit closures still saw the mines closed. The Countryside Alliance marches against fox hunting restrictions failed. The anti Iraq war marches didn't stop that war. These were often immense protests, most involving millions and far larger than cycling could ever hope to muster. And all these with infinitely greater public support than cycling enjoys, yes, even fox hunting has more support. If they didn't succeed, a lesser number of cyclists demonstrating are not going to get the car driving public to support measures that could rob them of car space and slow their progress.
November 7, 201213 yr Oh come on Flecc.....stop trying to spoil my fun....why dont you just admit that you dont know Robbie Williams :D Lynda
November 7, 201213 yr why dont you just admit that you dont know Robbie Williams Lynda Surely you mean Robbie Williams doesn't know me.
November 7, 201213 yr I've been on marches and just as flecc says.. nothing happened The only way goverment can be infulenced is by lobbying, and the lobbyists that have the best chance of being taken notice of don't come cheap. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited November 8, 201213 yr by Old_Dave
November 8, 201213 yr I just think it needs guts and determination to get anything done, mixed with a little bit of 'harmless' civil disobedience I'm reminded of the canal movement in the late 40s and 50s onwards. We could have squads of volunteers, not toting arms, but shovels, picks and mini-diggers and tar boilers, preparing and laying stretches of new cycle path here and there. The difference and great obstacle is the damned land ownership laws - the canals were there and just needed rebuilding and clearing up. I would think there are great stretches of land alongside publically-owned roads and railways that could be used as cycleways. If such land is public already, it's ours, isn't it. Viva la revolution!
November 8, 201213 yr I dont know Flecc....I believe a large demonstration achieves wider recognition and knowledge within the general public of the cause it supports......as has been demonstrated frequently in the past. As for famous people....good god...we arent talking politicians here.......we want someone like Robbie Williams or David Beckham cycling around London with us......THAT is what would get us the publicity needed. Anyone on first name terms ?..........come on....dont be shy..... Lynda Surprisingly enough I have met David Beckham and I know Pete Conway, Robbie's dad, but perhaps we should ask Wiggo to help us. He knows how dangerous it is! Bradley Wiggins in hospital with rib injuries after being hit by van | Sport | The Guardian
November 8, 201213 yr Surprisingly enough I have met David Beckham and I know Pete Conway, Robbie's dad, but perhaps we should ask Wiggo to help us. He knows how dangerous it is! Bradley Wiggins in hospital with rib injuries after being hit by van | Sport | The Guardian Woah flash....respect !! As for Bradley Wiggins , having just seen it on the news I was thinking exactly the same thing (seemingly it was a woman driver ) However, to be brutally honest I was hoping for someone more fanciable Lynda
November 8, 201213 yr Bradley wiggins knocked of his bike by a car while out locally.....22,000 either injured or killed yearly. This is the main reason people hesitant, lack of infrastructure, and respect on the road... Be careful out there!
November 8, 201213 yr The only way goverment can be infulenced is by lobbying, and the lobbyists that have the best chance of being taken notice of don't come cheap. And that is the way BEBA approach our issues, by the use of a lobbyist representing our interests in parliament. I don't think he's costly, but doubt he would like being described as cheap!
November 8, 201213 yr The difference between Uk, germany and netherland? INFRASTRUCTURE Road are safe to ride as bicycle there. In UK it's damn dangerous. Most people i know refuses to cycle for safety reason. I disagree completely with the idea that trying to use infrastructure to separate cyclists from other vehicles is the way to make cycling safer. In fact I'd argue the opposite. The thing that makes roads dangerous for competent cyclists is other road users, in particular people not showing due care and consideration when driving motor vehicles. Part of this is fuelled by the idea that some drivers seem to have that the roads belong to cars and bicycles should not be on them, this idea is only strengthened by the existence of (often inadequate) cycling infrastructure. A cycling infrastructure that truly separated cycles from motor traffic would face much the same obstacles as building a network of narrow gauge railways would. What do you do when the two networks cross? At the moment the usual “solution” is to drop the cycle route so the traffic is mixed once more (in the case of those cycle lanes painted along the side of the road this results in there being dedicated cycle route over junctions, just when they would be most useful). Without the complete separation of cycles and motor vehicles cyclists will still have to mix with cars and the danger will remain as long as the culture on our roads is such that cyclists are treated as intruding nuisances rather than legitimate traffic. If the culture were to change so that (for the most part) all vehicles were treated with due consideration by all road users then the need for dedicated cycling provision on safety grounds would be all but removed. But it’s much easier to paint a line along the road and call the gutter a “cycle lane” than it would be to change the culture on our roads.
November 8, 201213 yr It is nice to be able to relax on a designated cycle way now and again and truly enjoy the pursuit..its a fiction to think anything is going to change any time soon.... In fact as economy shrinks and people feel more desperate the situation on the roads will probably deteriorate further at least until the oil runs out Italians drive like maniacs but they give cyclists a wide berth..why is this. I think it is because they are more family oroeintated and considerate. why can I spend 6 weeks cycling in Italy without incident and within a day back here have 2 near misses and shouting matches.
November 8, 201213 yr Good response Patrick, I totally agree with you.. I think changing the culture towards cyclists from motorists will be difficult, if not impossible.. it is a major problem and the government doesn't seem to take it seriously enough, with the amount of cyclist deaths on our roads.. Saying that, not all motorists have this "we pay tax, we own the road" attitude and see cyclists as a nuisance that shouldn't be on their *their* roads.. I encounter plenty of considerate motorists who give me plenty of space and even slow down when over taking etc.. And then I also encounter those who zoom past you with just a few inches space while doing 40mph..complete idiots. I try to avoid riding on busy roads as much as possible personally, that's the good thing about e-bikes it gives us that flexibility to take short-cuts and use footpaths.. I never considered the road safety side of things in being a limiter on e-bike sales, but I suppose it could be a major factor too..there's a lot you can do to keep yourself safe though..wearing hi vis clothing for example. Just as an aside to this discussion.. how many e-bike owners would object to the idea of paying a lower rate of road tax (i.e. £30-£50 a year) and perhaps having bikes registered if they use the roads, if the government pledged to improve the infrastructure for cyclists and/or raise public safety awareness for cyclists using our roads? Perhaps with cyclists paying the tax too, motorists would take a different attitude? Perhaps not!
November 8, 201213 yr Thats all well and good Patrick but for all that, you still cant seriously say that separate cycle paths are more dangerous than being in traffic on the roads...... Lynda
November 8, 201213 yr Just as an aside to this discussion.. how many e-bike owners would object to the idea of paying a lower rate of road tax (i.e. £30-£50 a year) and perhaps having bikes registered if they use the roads, if the government pledged to improve the infrastructure for cyclists and/or raise public safety awareness for cyclists using our roads? Perhaps with cyclists paying the tax too, motorists would take a different attitude? Perhaps not! NO WAY Paul......more tax ?....government pledges ?.......some motorists changing attitudes ?...... ROFLMAO.......I dont think so.......... Lynda
November 8, 201213 yr no need for that, as has been discussed before on here we need to follow the example of some European countries. And put the responsibility/blame for all accidents on vehicle drivers, unless argued in court......They will soon learn to give us all a wide berth then! its called "strict liability" Strict liability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia what happen here is that you have to prove negligence (if your alive to do it) and why I bought a video camera:rolleyes: Edited November 8, 201213 yr by eddieo
November 8, 201213 yr Also totally agree Patrick. In any case, our tiny island with 62 million people crammed into high density clumps can never have an independent cycling structure, there just isn't the space and unlikely to ever be the money to achieve one anyway. We all of us co-exist peacefully on pavements, fat or thin, tall or short, young or old, blind or sighted, carrying cases, pushing prams, handing out leaflets, collecting for charity, walking dogs. We just need to realise that the same attitude needs to be applied to the roads. We aren't fighting for road space, we're sharing it.
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