I think the absence of a way to legally use a S pedelec is part of the problem that the government needs to address. We are part of the european union, other member states have legislation that allows for easy legal use of S pedelecs, so why don't we? Perhaps a useful piece of equipment like an S pedelec would result in a significant drop in car use and a drop in government tax revenues. One of the reasons people are interested in more powerful ebikes is that they offer a viable alternative to car use for a lot of local journeys. But try and carry much weight around on, or drawn behind a 250w ebike you cant even do 15mph, especially if any hills are involved

The article quotes a non-attributed source, there has been no record of fines or other sanctions - everywhere else in the EU, the police aren't bothered with dongles so why here?

Possibly the propogation of the original article with its unsubstantiated claim of raids by trading standards acts as a steamroller of fear to try and impose a level playing field in the market place...

The article quotes a non-attributed source, there has been no record of fines or other sanctions - everywhere else in the EU, the police aren't bothered with dongles so why here?

 

there is a slight issue with this whole thread, in that the title isn't correct / relevant to the article.

 

Its not that the police are cracking down on illegal eBikes... the artificial is about trading standards cracking down on dealers selling bikes that are modified to mean they leave the shop in a state that isn't CE certified as a ebike anymore.

 

This is an important difference that lots seem to be missing..

The article quotes a non-attributed source, there has been no record of fines or other sanctions - everywhere else in the EU, the police aren't bothered with dongles so why here?

 

Trex,where do you get the notion that 'elsewhere in the EU,the police are not bothered about dongles' Any parts that I sell into Germany have much stricter certification and it seems a much tighter controlled country than the UK.

Before making this comment I e-mailed my Dutch dealer friend,who is very knowlegeable about the Dutch market,he advised that no dealer would dare fit a dongle because of concerns of EN15194 implications....the Dutch are particularly aware of EN15194.

I suspect that the police in Germany would also be particularly hot on bicycles which were outside the scope of S pedelec,but fitted with a dongle,as S pedelec has to have a number plate it is easy to identify 'standard e-bikes'.I suppose if you wanted to have a 30 mph bike you would buy an S pedelec,so maybe the desire for a dongle is less relevant.

Trex....what makes you believe that EU police would not be concerned about dongles?

KudosDave

I think the absence of a way to legally use a S pedelec is part of the problem that the government needs to address. We are part of the european union, other member states have legislation that allows for easy legal use of S pedelecs, so why don't we? Perhaps a useful piece of equipment like an S pedelec would result in a significant drop in car use and a drop in government tax revenues. One of the reasons people are interested in more powerful ebikes is that they offer a viable alternative to car use for a lot of local journeys. But try and carry much weight around on, or drawn behind a 250w ebike you cant even do 15mph, especially if any hills are involved

Oigoi....I am sorry to dissappoint you,but unfortunately bikes in this country fall a long way down our governments list of prorities. They have not yet signed up to EN15194 ,that is 11 years behind the rest of Europe.

I suspect over the next few months we will see our government distancing themselves further way from Europe to appeal to the UKIP voters,quote 'I'm not paying this 1.7 million in December'.

I dont suppose the minister for transport even knows what an S pedelec is!!!!

Our government is also distancing itself from Liberal green issues,note canceling all the wind farms and going nuclear,also canceling that stupid air duty tax (which drove many air passengers to fly long haul from Europe rather than the UK)....fuel duty is falling because of lower fuel costs,which means lower tax take,the last thing this government wants is for us all to use our cars less.

KudosDave

@KD: the dongle is so easy to fit that I guess that most are sold by mail order companies and the customers do the fitting themselves.

The S-pedelec is another issue altogether, whenever our government decide to harmonize with Europe (ie replace our specs with EN15194), there is a strong probability that the s-pedelec will be legal too.

whenever our government decide to harmonize with Europe (ie replace our specs with EN15194), there is a strong probability that the s-pedelec will be legal too.

 

Not judging by the DfT view expressed at the last meeting on the subject of wattage ratings. They made it clear then that fast e-bikes like the S class were out of the question in the UK.

 

That should surprise no-one, every move we have ever made on traffic speed law has been towards more restriction, easement never figures. Has the increasing disappearance of the fifty limit not been noticed? Every time the national speed limit is reduced for a particular road, it's dropped straight from 60 to 40 mph, a change to the once widespread 50 mph limit is never considered.

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Edited October 31, 201411 yr by flecc

Not judging by the DfT view expressed at the last meeting on the subject of wattage ratings. They made it clear then that fast e-bikes like the S class were out of the question in the UK.

.

 

Then it should really come as no surprise to them that people flout the law. I for one am fed up, as a motorist, of being picked on as an easy target for collecting taxes. I am also fed up in government disinterest in providing people with sustainable, practical, affordable alternatives to fossil fuel burning vehicles. I like making a contribution towards my travelling by pedalling and keeping fit. I am not interested in travelling at dangerous speeds but it is not possible to transport simple things like shopping or a sack of chicken food using a legal ebike in a hilly area.

I am also fed up in government disinterest in providing people with sustainable, practical, affordable alternatives to fossil fuel burning vehicles. I like making a contribution towards my travelling by pedalling and keeping fit. I am not interested in travelling at dangerous speeds

Completely agree with you.

but it is not possible to transport simple things like shopping or a sack of chicken food using a legal ebike in a hilly area.

Not so sure about this. I think many of the legal systems would have no problems with this at all - Panasonic 48V hub drive, Bosch Performance Line etc. Areas where legal ebikes are not such a winner are in long-distance fast journeys, such as my 44-mile round trip commute.

 

Michael

it is not possible to transport simple things like shopping or a sack of chicken food using a legal ebike in a hilly area.

 

Though I support your views on many government transport policies, this is clearly not true:

 

See this linked page on my website.

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The trade members in this thread are trying to grind so many axes their views are barely worthy of consideration.

 

There is, of course, nothing to stop them posting self-seeking claptrap.

 

But equally there's nothing to stop me pointing out.what they are doing.

Not judging by the DfT view expressed at the last meeting on the subject of wattage ratings. They made it clear then that fast e-bikes like the S class were out of the question in the UK.

...

.

then there may be opportunities for someone to bring in high speed electric motocycles, not pedelecs. capable of 50mph+.

like this cheap one:

http://i00.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/1930730888/2014_EEC_New_Hot_Electric_Motorcycle_for.jpg

Flecc / Michael, interesting to hear your suggestions / examples. I think things have moved on a bit from the 250w hub motor drive I had years ago that could barely pull me and itself up a moderate hill. Though I suspect the improvement in the capabilities has come around by manufacturers pushing the boundaries of what is legal. As I understand it some bikes will produce far more than their rated 250w when hillclimbing, whereupon it's not really a 250w motor any more, it's just got a 250w label on it.

Things might be different in a big city, but out in a rural area there is no possibility of serious police interest in a 'mildly' overpowered ebike ridden sensibly. Manufacturer claimed motor power ratings are almost irrelevant - the legislation has a power limit intended as a double constraint on speed as you won't get a typical bike to high speed with 250W. 30mph ebikes are clearly taking the p, 19 mph wouldn't even be noticed.

The trade members in this thread are trying to grind so many axes their views are barely worthy of consideration.

 

There is, of course, nothing to stop them posting self-seeking claptrap.

 

But equally there's nothing to stop me pointing out.what they are doing.

 

It's a free country,well almost !!!!

KudosDave

It's a free country,well almost !!!!

KudosDave

 

Nice to see my remark taken in the spirit in which it was intended.

 

I'm not against trade members, quite the reverse.

 

Kudos Dave and the others often post stuff about the trade that I wouldn't otherwise have known, so long may that continue.

Robf.....a bit off subject but I think amusing....I have a lot of communications with Chinese companies,with the culture and translation difficulties there is a risk of misunderstandings in either direction. If the Chinese make a joke or joke remark,they suffix it by 'hehe',I have inherited that suffix,it tells anyone that your remark should be taken in jest, a useful word,even in English.

However,one of my guys was off ill last week,I made the mistake of telling one of my female Chinese contacts that he had ' man-flu',hehe,trying to explain to a Chinese girl what was meant by 'man-flu' caused considerable difficulty,Wikipedia saved the day,she translated it into Chinese with the comment that her boss often suffered with 'man-flu'!!!!!!

KudosDave

Edited November 1, 201411 yr by Kudoscycles

@MikeRo:-

 

"Things might be different in a big city, but out in a rural area there is no possibility of serious police interest in a 'mildly' overpowered ebike ridden sensibly."

 

Unless someone gets hurt......

Now that's just paranoia and scaremongering!

Not judging by the DfT view expressed at the last meeting on the subject of wattage ratings. They made it clear then that fast e-bikes like the S class were out of the question in the UK.

 

That should surprise no-one, every move we have ever made on traffic speed law has been towards more restriction, easement never figures. Has the increasing disappearance of the fifty limit not been noticed? Every time the national speed limit is reduced for a particular road, it's dropped straight from 60 to 40 mph, a change to the once widespread 50 mph limit is never considered.

.

 

Flecc, do you have a link to minutes of that meeting, please? There are good EU law reasons why that stance might not withstand a court challenge. Thanks.

I guess everybody is tired of this topic, but I have just joined up and have to have my say.

 

I am trying to buy a pedelec, but I don't really want to spend 3 or 4 grand on a new Haibike or KTM unless it does everything I need. I want a bike I can pedal on roads and technical offroad tracks, with as much effort as I can comfortably expend, but I don't have the stamina to keep up with my son who can easily average 20mph over 50miles on his road bike on hilly terrain. He is nothing special fitnesswise.

 

I can personally average 10 or 15 mph over rough hilly tracks for short distances. I can do 20 or 25mph on road for very short distances with no wind and can far exceed this on steep downhills. As I am getting on a bit and have mild asthma and troublesome knees there is no way I can keep this up.

 

The pedelecs I have tried are great up to 15mph, but if I pedal harder there is a braking effect and whatever I do I cannot pedal on the flat at a speed I would be capable of doing on a real bike. Even allowing for the extra weight, if I could disable the motor completlely for short periods and remove the braking effect I would be happy - why is this not possible?

 

The speed of 15mph is perfectly acceptable offroad, but not onroad. I think 20mph would be a reasonable assisted speed onroad and on official bike tracks.This is the opposite of what I understand a lot of people are asking for - obviously for organised offroad events or private location there need be no limits.

 

By the way - so I can cause the usual uproar from the traders here - the UK is being ripped off price wise on ebikes like everything else - the prices in pounds are pretty much the same numbers as they are being sold in Euros in Europe. - Yet another reason for buying over there.

I guess everybody is tired of this topic, but I have just joined up and have to have my say.

 

I am trying to buy a pedelec, but I don't really want to spend 3 or 4 grand on a new Haibike or KTM unless it does everything I need. I want a bike I can pedal on roads and technical offroad tracks, with as much effort as I can comfortably expend, but I don't have the stamina to keep up with my son who can easily average 20mph over 50miles on his road bike on hilly terrain. He is nothing special fitnesswise.

 

I can personally average 10 or 15 mph over rough hilly tracks for short distances. I can do 20 or 25mph on road for very short distances with no wind and can far exceed this on steep downhills. As I am getting on a bit and have mild asthma and troublesome knees there is no way I can keep this up.

 

The pedelecs I have tried are great up to 15mph, but if I pedal harder there is a braking effect and whatever I do I cannot pedal on the flat at a speed I would be capable of doing on a real bike. Even allowing for the extra weight, if I could disable the motor completlely for short periods and remove the braking effect I would be happy - why is this not possible?

 

The speed of 15mph is perfectly acceptable offroad, but not onroad. I think 20mph would be a reasonable assisted speed onroad and on official bike tracks.This is the opposite of what I understand a lot of people are asking for - obviously for organised offroad events or private location there need be no limits.

 

By the way - so I can cause the usual uproar from the traders here - the UK is being ripped off price wise on ebikes like everything else - the prices in pounds are pretty much the same numbers as they are being sold in Euros in Europe. - Yet another reason for buying over there.

You have very eloquently described both me and my son here, although I disagree with the braking effect which I don't experience. ....its just the 20 odd kilos that makes it feel that way. Otherwise I fully agree...

Flecc, do you have a link to minutes of that meeting, please? There are good EU law reasons why that stance might not withstand a court challenge. Thanks.

 

I don't, I only have extracts from those present, but be assured there are no enforceable EU reasons why this stance could be opposed.

 

Although in principle any EU citizen is entitled to the same benefits as any other EU citizen, and although the EU has as primary position in road transport law, member states do have entitlements to add variations in a number of areas. Indeed each piece of EU legislation includes a statement inviting member countries to submit requests for variations to the EU commission within a stated period, usually six months. Since November 2003 we have lived with our pedelecs in a legislative black hole since we have not yet adopted EU pedelec law. That's intended in the near future but already variations are being considered following the public consultation in which some pedelecs members took part.

 

In any case, a court ruling might have little effect in Britain where we now have passed laws known to be illegal under both UK and EU law and where a Prime Minister openly states he will ignore EU court rulings in future.

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Edited November 2, 201411 yr by flecc

You have very eloquently described both me and my son here, although I disagree with the braking effect which I don't experience. ....its just the 20 odd kilos that makes it feel that way. Otherwise I fully agree...