If high speed S Pedelecs were legal and the owner could enjoy all of the freedoms given to the bikes which we currently term as legal, then I might buy one. I can see some broad benefits to the concept, particularly in the case of commuters & travellers into city centres.

 

I think that we would all agree the we need a framework of rules in which to operate as a society. I see that Phill above wants, "the freedom to do whatever you want". I'm guessing that would be fine with Phill until someone else, enjoying their freedom to do whatever they want, did something which inconvenienced Phill. My guess would be that Phill would want some sort of legislation to restrict the activities and freedoms of his tormentor. Suppose someone's idea of, "fun" as Phill puts it, is to continually ride back and forth, at speed, in front of Phill's house on a mini-MOTO with no silencer. This continues from early evening and into the night. Is Phill going to be a happy bunny, content to allow his fellow citizen to, "do whatever they want" and have their fun or, is he going to change sides and become a person to whom , " fun is an ailien concept?" I suspect that Phill's idea of, "freedom to do whatever you want" is restricted to things that only Phill wants to do and approves of. Other people's freedoms are permissible only if they don't inconvenience Phill. So, I'm guessing that Phill, and the people like him actually do want a framework of rules in which to operate. Good news Phill, we've got some.

 

The other problem with the public at large is that they generally lack self discipline and self control. For example, the current assist speed limit is 15 mph, or thereabouts. If the limit was set at 30 mph, there would be, people wanting dongles and bikes that would give them the freedom to achieve 35 mph. There is no end to it, so a line has to be established. I know some legal cars can achieve 200 mph, but they are much much more expensive to operate and are subject to infinitely more regulation. And then they can only legally do 70 mph in this country anyway.

 

For a powered machine that attracts no VEL duty, insurance, rider licensing, annual testing, mandatory helmet wearing and can share cycle paths and other cycling only areas, the current 250 Watt Ebike is not a bad deal for us public. Of course, those who can't see this and lack self control can't resist the urge to seize on the relatively simple opportunity to bastardise the Ebike and turn it into a cheap moped. Thereby saving themselves a bit of money.

 

To continue with this obsession to eek out a few more mph from what is already a capable legal machine will have a negative outcome for us all. Possibly compulsory insurance for ebikes will be the thin end of the wedge. It will also damage the Ebike retailing industry too.

 

If the site owners / administrators had any ethics, they would remove the off road forum area. It fools no one. Endless Sphere or whatever, exists for that sort of thing. Let's get this forum back to its origins, Ebike discussion.

Hello Mr Tillson,

I am a bit shocked by this post so I have to ask 2 questions of you..

1/ where does your assumption come from that me "having fun anyway I please" equates to .A/.Breaking the law, and B/ Causing offence and inconvenience to others?

2/ How are my "as fast as I can ride up hills" rides (just because I can) again within the law, similar to riding a mini moto without a silencer up and down the street which has to be antisocial behaviour to say the least!

My bike is totally legal, I dont have/had a speed up device (I do admit to considering one) I try to ride it within the law and with consideration to others, having loads of enjoyment (fun) in the process, and, yes I do make bad judgements and do things wrong occasionally,but I try to learn from them.

I wonder if you have me confused with someone else,... or is it just because I dont comply with a fuddy duddy approach to e-bikes,

Prey Tell Mr Tillson

Added later.

Ha ha, yes I get it now... You are talking about yourself!

Edited October 30, 201411 yr by Gubbins

Feel free to remove the offroad forum - There' s no more people posting there than anywhere else on here, so you may as well.

Take out the kits posts too.

 

Last one out switch off the light.

@[mention=1761]Col[/mention]: your opinion on the individuals who derestrict their bikes verges on paranoia. The police should be more concerned with the young agressive riders who use their bike like a weight training kit in a gym even on narrow paths, than a few pensioners who get a dongle for their bike.

There should be a speed limit on narrow paths.

 

Its not really paranoia. You are an individual, take risks as you see fit. My concerns are based on a well educated business understanding of the law and issues.

 

There are now a good x thousand KTM bikes in the UK that are directly linked to my business... so the chances of one of them being involved in an accident or pulled over is a lot higher than you as an individual. So everytime a discussion pops up on here you'll find someone from my office popping up to make sure the implications of riding illegal bikes are made clear. Because if a KTM is every involved in an incident we have our policy clear as day for all to see.

 

You may well think the police time is better spent doing x or y, but if x or y are not against the law, they won't agree with you.

 

I honestly don't think anyone is going to get pulled over and fined, or have their bike crushed, or get points on their licence. I just can't see that happening, even though it could. My fear, and it will happen... is that an illegal eBike will be involved in an accident, and then the eyes of the press and politicians will be opened up to what eBikes are and can be and then you'll find we're suddenly under a whole world of more legislation which could spoil the industry / fun for everyone. Whilst the individual involved could be landed with a huge insurance billl, and the dealer who sold the bike could loose their business.

I see the Dutch are kicking mopeds off cycle lanes, although congestion seems to be the main reason.

 

http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/amsterdam-can-send-mopeds-to-the-carriageway/

Just look at dogs..

Some very irresponsible people own dangerous breeds which actually kill people. small children even, and it gets in the national news.... And are the owners are taken to task, well yes, often with little penalty, but I don't see dog licences being reintroduced, or hear of unscrupulous breeders being shut down.

 

So I wonder what is the worst that could happen to e biking if something similar got into the news........

Forced to register the bike.. Well it would make it easier to find a stolen one.

Road tax.. Zero emissions exempt and now no disc, so no worries there

Made to wear a helmet. Do that now,

Have proper front and rear lights. yep got them.

Treaded tyres and brakes that work. yep got them too.

Made to take a test to prove your fit to be on the road.. Who could argue with that?

Compulsory Insurance.. Mmm in fact I think perhaps this is not such a bad thing.... You dont have to be in the wrong to take the blame...

Just look at dogs..

Some very irresponsible people own dangerous breeds which actually kill people. small children even, and it gets in the national news.... And are the owners are taken to task, well yes, often with little penalty, but I don't see dog licences being reintroduced, or hear of unscrupulous breeders being shut down.

 

So I wonder what is the worst that could happen to e biking if something similar got into the news........

Forced to register the bike.. Well it would make it easier to find a stolen one.

Road tax.. Zero emissions exempt and now no disc, so no worries there

Made to wear a helmet. Do that now,

Have proper front and rear lights. yep got them.

Treaded tyres and brakes that work. yep got them too.

Made to take a test to prove your fit to be on the road.. Who could argue with that?

Compulsory Insurance.. Mmm in fact I think perhaps this is not such a bad thing.... You dont have to be in the wrong to take the blame...

 

If I wear a helmet it's because I want to not because I'm told to, and if it's a hot day and I don't want to I won't. So more regulation? No thanks. As to compulsory rider testing and registration. I can't think of anything more likely to kill pedelecs stone dead.

If I wear a helmet it's because I want to not because I'm told to, and if it's a hot day and I don't want to I won't. So more regulation? No thanks. As to compulsory rider testing and registration. I can't think of anything more likely to kill pedelecs stone dead.

Fully agree, it just all this talk of such dire consequences of a few bending the rules a bit made me think about the worst that could happen....

Actually there are parallels to the kit car industry. 20 years ago the industry was pretty much unregulated,you could put a Rover V8 lump into a flimsy space frame chassis and get it registered,some of those home builds were lethal,you wouldn't want one following you down the motorway,the brakes were often terrible. As a parallel,In the London shop we have seen some really awful 1500 watt x 40 mph e-bikes,very badly built and definitely illegal,one was ridden by a 15 year old,the bike bought by an uninformed dad.

There was a big accident with a very powerful kit car hitting head on,ironically the accident had nothing to do with power,the driver was blinded by the sun and lost his direction,but the vehicle had extreme appearance and was bought to the government attention.

The result was SVA,the governments means of ensuring that these vehicles were roadworthy,cost about £200. The industry took a hit but recovered,albeit the smallest builders closed down.

Then the government decided that SVA was not thorough enough,and introduced IVA,fees went up to £600,half the test centres closed and the industry took another hit. The result was that it was only worth building a kit car if it was a high end product or you bought a kit from a manufacturer who had type approval,only the big guys could afford type approval-Caterham or Westfielf,the others supplied kits for Motorsport only ( off road use,where have we heard that before?),the parallel is that only the likes of Kalkhoff,KTM could afford the cost,some of the smaller suppliers would be out of business,this would certainly hurt Kudos or maybe have a much reduced range. The home builds that are often mentioned on this forum would be extremely difficult and expensive to SVA.,I suspect many would find their way to the skip.

Our government could decide that all e-bikes must have type approval,with a number plate,compulsory insurance,helmet,mot.

But the kit car industry was resilient,it adapted to other markets,but the final killer was some yobs broke into a high end kit car factory and stole some very expensive cars,the broker had to put a claim into the underwriter,who realising he was insuring most of the kit car industry,got frightened and exited the industry,with the result that most no longer had product or public liability insurance. Ironically,the yobs got nervous about what they stole and advised the builder where the cars were located,but the damage was done,the underwriters would not change their minds,

Ok,there are some who would say that these are bicycles but be assured that the insurance industry is very nervous of these e-bikes,more so than high powered vehicles,they particularly don't like that they can be ridden by 15 year olds and they can ride on bridle ways and promenades mixing it with pedestrians.

So those who say we are being wimps about these illegals should look at history to see the possible future. If we all keep our heads down and hopefully EN 15194 will satisfy the regulators and we are lucky that nobody runs into Eric Pickles in the meantime!!!!! But this forum is so open about building 1000 watt,30 mph plus motorbikes that have a resemblance to pedelecs I am concerned that some MP will think that raising the subject will raise his profile.

It is for this reason that I and others in the industry are so concerned about these illegal bikes,gentleman we play with fire,it only needs an unlucky event to bring our freedom to regulators attention,we will all be the worse for it.

KudosDave

Made to wear a helmet. Do that now,

Have proper front and rear lights. yep got them.

Liberal Fascism if you ask me,.

What happened to the man who just wants to have fun

Lights ! I don't go out in the dark

Helmets ! Tell me to wear one & I'll tell you where to put it

Liberal Fascism if you ask me,.

What happened to the man who just wants to have fun

Lights ! I don't go out in the dark

Helmets ! Tell me to wear one & I'll tell you where to put it

Oooooo . Won't fit!

James seems to like getting Trading Standards involved. Here's something that Trading Standards do say:-

 

Advertising to consumers

The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations mean you can’t mislead or harass consumers by, for example:

##including false or deceptive messages

##leaving out important information

 

His site makes claims like:-

 

Sparta E-Speed CrossBar Electric Bike

 

If you feel the NEED for SPEED then SPARTA’s ION E-Speed electric bike is the one for you. With a built-in power boost throttle it will summit the steepest inclines with ease, and travel at speeds of up to 40kmh.

 

Because the Sparta E-Speed can travel at speeds of up to 40Kmh this e-bike must be registered with the DVLA. This is a straight-forward procedure – if you would like more details please contact us .

 

He has also stated on this forum 'No need for for a numberplate' if you actually manage to register an S-pedelec & makes a couple of other points which Electrifying Cycles have challenged him on (see links in post 9 of this thread).

 

We're yet to see the proof requested. In the absence of that proof do forum members think the above statements might be misleading or 'false or deceptive messages' or ‘leaving out important information’?

Edited October 30, 201411 yr by Wander

My bike does 25 MPH down hill is it illegal:rolleyes:

I see the Dutch are kicking mopeds off cycle lanes, although congestion seems to be the main reason.

 

http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/amsterdam-can-send-mopeds-to-the-carriageway/

 

Interesting news, and not before time. Obviously I do not live in the Netherlands, but could never understand why they allowed this in the first place. Mixing motorised two-wheelers with bicycles immediately re-introduced the greatest danger to cyclists.....the speed differential!

I have sympathies with James's position. He is a trader who needs to compete to maintain his business. He sees companies not a million miles from him,who are openly advertising S Pedelecs bikes,with on road testimonials that he feels a need to offer the same.

The fault lies with the police and more directly trading standards who have turned a blind eye to these obviously illegal bikes,this forum has some members who openly state they use these bikes on the road,forget the 'off road use or private land use only' or 'can be easily registered' I know nobody who has registered these bikes and I know many who turn up at our London shop,some have not even bothered to take the number plates off!

So James is in a difficult position,he is being pressured to supply bikes by his customers that he knows cannot be used as legal bicycles but other traders seem to be getting away with it.

Kudos and the London Electric Bike Company are not under such pressure,the e-bike business is not the prime revenue,so we don't need to be pressured into selling S Pedelecs. I think the market for such bikes is reducing because customers are becoming more knowledgeable about their legality.

However,if someone can educate me how I can legally sell S Pedelecs in the UK as bicycles...I repeat as bicycles,not mopeds....then I would gladly market such machines. Every thread that mentions easily registered seems to go cold when we ask who has done it.

KudosDave

My bike does 25 MPH down hill is it illegal:rolleyes:

Yes,if it is still under power. If it is pedal only,who cares! Jim tells me he has managed 37 mph down some Scottish mountain on a Kudos Typhoon,without power....he is old enough to know better but he is legal,not sure if he can flash a 30 mph speed trap!!!!!

KudosDave

I have sympathies with James's position. He is a trader who needs to compete to maintain his business. He sees companies not a million miles from him,who are openly advertising S Pedelecs bikes,with on road testimonials that he feels a need to offer the same.

The fault lies with the police and more directly trading standards who have turned a blind eye to these obviously illegal bikes,this forum has some members who openly state they use these bikes on the road,forget the 'off road use or private land use only' or 'can be easily registered' I know nobody who has registered these bikes and I know many who turn up at our London shop,some have not even bothered to take the number plates off!

So James is in a difficult position,he is being pressured to supply bikes by his customers that he knows cannot be used as legal bicycles but other traders seem to be getting away with it.

Kudos and the London Electric Bike Company are not under such pressure,the e-bike business is not the prime revenue,so we don't need to be pressured into selling S Pedelecs. I think the market for such bikes is reducing because customers are becoming more knowledgeable about their legality.

However,if someone can educate me how I can legally sell S Pedelecs in the UK as bicycles...I repeat as bicycles,not mopeds....then I would gladly market such machines. Every thread that mentions easily registered seems to go cold when we ask who has done it.

KudosDave

Don't get me wrong, I sympathise with James & other small business owners & know as well as many on this forum how tough it is to run a small business.

 

It's the apparent hypocrisy which I don't understand. You've made it quite open that you have had a spat with another trader about s-pedelecs but your stand is that you don't / won't sell them & I respect that.

 

James appears to report other dealers to trading standards when on the face of it he is selling s-pedelecs & might not be complying with trading standards himself.

 

I was initially excited with the claims he made. At face value he had made a real breakthrough. Sadly when Electrifying Cycles started to challenge him he stopped posting on those threads. You know nobody who has registered an s-pedelec, James states that it is a straight-forward process. Only one of you can be right!

Edited October 30, 201411 yr by Wander

Regarding the claim that machines retro-fitted with so-called dongles would automatically be seized and crushed.

 

In such circumstances, the owner would be advised to remove the device and then present the machine to a police station for examination to prove it had been returned to as-purchased condition. This is standard procedure for other modifications such as too-dark window tints, non standard number plates and exhaust systems to name just a few. In such circumstances, and providing the recommendations have been carried out, the vehicle would not be seized. The situation would be very different for an S-class pedelec.

 

"S" class pedelecs have a much higher assisted speed cut-off, this is set-in-stone in the firmware of the motor controller. It cannot be "un-plugged" or disconnected at will. As no exemption class currently exists for such a vehicle in this country, the machine would almost certainly be seized and crushed.

 

As you can see, there is a substantial difference between an illegally modified E-bike and one for which no exemption exists...an expensive difference in the case of the latter.

Don't get me wrong, I sympathise with James & other small business owners & know as well as many on this forum how tough it is to run a small business.

 

It's the apparent hypocrisy which I don't understand. You've made it quite open that you have had a spat with another trader about s-pedelecs but your stand is that you don't / won't sell them & I respect that.

 

James appears to report other dealers to trading standards when on the face of it he is selling s-pedelecs & might not be complying with trading standards himself.

 

I was initially excited with the claims he made. At face value he had made a real breakthrough. Sadly when Electrifying Cycles started to challenge him he stopped posting on those threads. You know nobody who has registered an s-pedelec, James states that it is a straight-forward process. Only one of you can be right!

 

I agree with everything you say...I have no holier than thou attitude against S pedelecs and am equally frustrated that if there is a mechanism for legally using S pedelecs on the road then I would gladly sell same.

But when pressed nobody seems to advise how this is possible,even with type approval

I am sure Colin of FLI (KTM) would happily import KTM S pedelecs,if there was a simple and legal means of using them,I would prefer that usage was as a bicycle on cycle tracks not just the public highway,but that is maybe asking for too much.

I think you misunderstood my posting,it appears to me we are like thinking.

KudosDave

I am sure Colin of FLI (KTM) would happily import KTM S pedelecs,if there was a simple and legal means of using them,I would prefer that usage was as a bicycle on cycle tracks not just the public highway,but that is maybe asking for too much.

I think you misunderstood my posting,it appears to me we are like thinking.

KudosDave

No, no misunderstanding, I am in agreement with you!

 

Oh & haven't you heard Col has changed his stance, FLI have said they are now importing & selling s-pedelecs (for private land use only).

No, no misunderstanding, I am in agreement with you!

 

Oh & haven't you heard Col has changed his stance, FLI have said they are now importing & selling s-pedelecs (for private land use only).

 

Really,that seems in conflict with his previous postings on this thread. Private land is actually a difficult bit of real estate to find,forget Forestry Commision,Duchy of Cornwall. Perhaps we could sell one to Andrew Lloyd Webber,he owns privately big chunks of Berkshire!!!!!!

KudosDave

Really,that seems in conflict with his previous postings on this thread.

Yep, see here.

So, how many dongles are sold in the UK so far? I am willing to bet that number is only in the low hundreds.

isn't it strange that some traders take every opportunity to peddle fear whenever someone talks about dongles and yet, there never has been any real fact to support their propaganda.

The UK e-bike market is tiny because e-bikes are mostly bought by people who need them. Not a big percentage. People who want speed wouldn't buy e-bikes anyway, because of their intrinsically higher depreciation in comparision to motobikes.

I am sure Colin of FLI (KTM) would happily import KTM S pedelecs,if there was a simple and legal means of using them,I would prefer that usage was as a bicycle on cycle tracks not just the public highway,but that is maybe asking for too much.

I think you misunderstood my posting,it appears to me we are like thinking.

KudosDave

 

100% correct Dave

 

Oh & haven't you heard Col has changed his stance, FLI have said they are now importing & selling s-pedelecs (for private land use only).

 

not quite... we've said we can sell them, that doesn't mean we are.

 

We've said we will supply them if the customer and dealer can prove they have access to the private land needed to use them.

 

No one so far has been able to prove they can use one legally, and if I'm honest I don't expect anyone will be able to .

 

This is a very deliberate decision, because people have said we're only anti them because we can't sell them. We can sell them, hence the change in wording. What we've found so far is that whilst we can sell them, there is no one who can use them legally... so none have been sold.

So, how many dongles are sold in the UK so far? I am willing to bet that number is only in the low hundreds.

isn't it strange that some traders take every opportunity to peddle fear whenever someone talks about dongles and yet, there never has been any real fact to support their propaganda.

The UK e-bike market is tiny because e-bikes are mostly bought by people who need them. Not a big percentage. People who want speed wouldn't buy e-bikes anyway, because of their intrinsically higher depreciation in comparision to motobikes.

 

If they are not illegal now they will be in the future:

 

(10)

 

The objectives of this Regulation should not be affected by the fitting of certain systems, components or separate technical units after vehicles have been placed on the market, registered or entered into service. Thus, appropriate measures should be taken in order to make sure that systems, components or separate technical units which can be fitted to vehicles, and which could significantly impair the functioning of systems that are essential for environmental protection or functional safety, are subject to prior control by an approval authority before they are placed on the market, registered or are entered into service.

 

 

and the Government does not appear to have their hands tied even if they bring in the new regulation to make any changes to what already exists:

 

(4)

 

This Regulation should be without prejudice to measures at national or Union level regarding the use of L-category vehicles on the road, such as specific drivers’ licence requirements, limitations of maximum speed or measures regulating access to certain roads.

Edited October 31, 201411 yr by shemozzle999

 

At face value he had made a real breakthrough. Sadly when Electrifying Cycles started to challenge him he stopped posting on those threads. You know nobody who has registered an s-pedelec, James states that it is a straight-forward process. Only one of you can be right!

 

I think it's been established over quite a few threads even since I've been on this forum that KudosDave is right.

 

Flecc, who has taken knowledge on these things, has written on several occasions that there is no possible mechanism to register an s pedelec in the UK and for it to remain recognisable as an s pedelec. The only way would be to use the moped classification and make the bike compliant with that. So moped lights flashers mirrors etc. Then tax and register it and have the required drivers licence, and wear a motorcycle approved helmet. No use on bridleways and cycleways of course.

 

Someone did post a picture of something similar here a month or so back which an Endless Sphere member had registered after a lot of hassle; and it was an odd looking beast. That wasn't an s pedelec though it was a converted high powered electric bike.

 

I believe there is a requirement for some of these things on an actual s pedelec in Germany as well. They aren't classed as e bikes with the freedom from regulation of e bikes.

Edited October 31, 201411 yr by JohnCade