I guess everybody is tired of this topic, but I have just joined up and have to have my say.

 

I am trying to buy a pedelec, but I don't really want to spend 3 or 4 grand on a new Haibike or KTM unless it does everything I need. I want a bike I can pedal on roads and technical offroad tracks, with as much effort as I can comfortably expend, but I don't have the stamina to keep up with my son who can easily average 20mph over 50miles on his road bike on hilly terrain. He is nothing special fitnesswise.

 

I can personally average 10 or 15 mph over rough hilly tracks for short distances. I can do 20 or 25mph on road for very short distances with no wind and can far exceed this on steep downhills. As I am getting on a bit and have mild asthma and troublesome knees there is no way I can keep this up.

 

The pedelecs I have tried are great up to 15mph, but if I pedal harder there is a braking effect and whatever I do I cannot pedal on the flat at a speed I would be capable of doing on a real bike. Even allowing for the extra weight, if I could disable the motor completlely for short periods and remove the braking effect I would be happy - why is this not possible?

 

The speed of 15mph is perfectly acceptable offroad, but not onroad. I think 20mph would be a reasonable assisted speed onroad and on official bike tracks.This is the opposite of what I understand a lot of people are asking for - obviously for organised offroad events or private location there need be no limits.

 

By the way - so I can cause the usual uproar from the traders here - the UK is being ripped off price wise on ebikes like everything else - the prices in pounds are pretty much the same numbers as they are being sold in Euros in Europe. - Yet another reason for buying over there.

 

 

With our narrow bike tracks shared with pedestrians and dogs, speeds of 20 mph would be bloody dangerous I should think. You have to remember that if it's a bike it can use bike facilities. Which in this country are designed by people who think bikes go at not much more than walking pace.

 

My bike pedals past the cut off quite well on the flat and gives assist up to over 17 mph legally by taking advantage of the ten percent leeway in the regs. There was a thread here a month ago in which people posted the cut out of their own bikes and many were the same as mine.

 

A good quality crank drive bike with road tyres pumped up to a good pressure should roll fine past the cut off when it's up and going.

I might have overstated the braking effect, but all the bikes I have tested so far are almost impossible to pedal past the limit and are similarly difficult to push with the motor off. This is not just the effect of the weight.

 

I am seriously considering getting a Vivax Assist bike, which for the same price as a Haibike weighs around 10kg instead of over 20. The main snag is the range, but at this weight I can easily carry a few extra batteries. Also it is slightly less power, but probably adequate and it needs occasional oil changes! I have not tested one yet though does anyone have any experience?.

Edited November 2, 201411 yr by earwig

I guess everybody is tired of this topic, but I have just joined up and have to have my say.

 

I am trying to buy a pedelec, but I don't really want to spend 3 or 4 grand on a new Haibike or KTM unless it does everything I need. I want a bike I can pedal on roads and technical offroad tracks, with as much effort as I can comfortably expend, but I don't have the stamina to keep up with my son who can easily average 20mph over 50miles on his road bike on hilly terrain. He is nothing special fitnesswise.

 

I can personally average 10 or 15 mph over rough hilly tracks for short distances. I can do 20 or 25mph on road for very short distances with no wind and can far exceed this on steep downhills. As I am getting on a bit and have mild asthma and troublesome knees there is no way I can keep this up.

 

The pedelecs I have tried are great up to 15mph, but if I pedal harder there is a braking effect and whatever I do I cannot pedal on the flat at a speed I would be capable of doing on a real bike. Even allowing for the extra weight, if I could disable the motor completlely for short periods and remove the braking effect I would be happy - why is this not possible?

 

The speed of 15mph is perfectly acceptable offroad, but not onroad. I think 20mph would be a reasonable assisted speed onroad and on official bike tracks.This is the opposite of what I understand a lot of people are asking for - obviously for organised offroad events or private location there need be no limits.

 

By the way - so I can cause the usual uproar from the traders here - the UK is being ripped off price wise on ebikes like everything else - the prices in pounds are pretty much the same numbers as they are being sold in Euros in Europe. - Yet another reason for buying over there.

The braking effect sounds like a direct drive motor possibly also with regen. A geared hub motor with a sprag clutch can be pedalled normally above the assistance speed with no significant drag. Interesting how the different bikes all have different characteristics!

@MikeRo:-

 

"The braking effect sounds like a direct drive motor possibly also with regen. A geared hub motor with a sprag clutch can be pedalled normally above the assistance speed with no significant drag."

 

I disagree with this - my BPM isn't a direct drive motor to the best of my knowledge but there's a hell of alot of drag from the motor when the power is off.

Oh, that's interesting- I wonder why? Can you spin the wheel easily by hand? I can with mine, but not backwards...

@MikeRo:-

 

"The braking effect sounds like a direct drive motor possibly also with regen. A geared hub motor with a sprag clutch can be pedalled normally above the assistance speed with no significant drag."

 

I disagree with this - my BPM isn't a direct drive motor to the best of my knowledge but there's a hell of alot of drag from the motor when the power is off.

I think they are direct drive with regen - these are the latest Bosch motors. Can you disable the regen?

Not sure if this will make sense but here goes.

 

Earwig, from my experience, a pedelec gives you an average of a two gear advantage over a regular pedal bike. When the speed reaches it's cut off point, you as the rider, are then left to compensate for that advantage previously given up to the cut off point.

Reaching the cut off point means that you are accelerating, so the two gear advantage isn't quite so noticeable, but still has to be compensated for, hence the feeling of braking/drag.

 

I could be wrong, but that is my take on it.

 

The Bosch bikes don't have regen, and the new performance line motors are effortless to pedal. How could they not be, with a front sprocket as small as they have.

Edited November 2, 201411 yr by EddiePJ

Tyres make a big difference too. If he's using MB tyres the rolling resistance on the road is considerable.

 

A MB I had a couple of years ago was almost as fast on the flat as my old road trainers when fitted with good road tyres pumped up to 85 psi. It was a fair bit heavier than them too.

[quote="earwig, post: 241005, member: 12615"

 

The pedelecs I have tried are great up to 15mph, but if I pedal harder there is a braking effect

That will be a loss of assistance which just feels like the brakes going on.

My throttle only kit keeps assist on to 22 mph though as I'm mainly off road I don't often go so fast.

It was like this when I bought it.

Could you ask your son to slow down a bit? I have to do this if my wife is with me, I use pedal power only when cycling with her.

Dave

I am seriously considering getting a Vivax Assist bike, which for the same price as a Haibike weighs around 10kg instead of over 20. The main snag is the range, but at this weight I can easily carry a few extra batteries. Also it is slightly less power, but probably adequate

 

Try before buying, I wouldn't describe their claim of 200 watts actual maximum power as being adequate and certainly not as slightly less powerful. Our nominal 250 watt legal e-bikes actually kick out more like 400 watts at least, and the better performing ones up to 700 watts. The 250 figure is little more than a legal nicety.

 

You could find that expensive Gruber very weedy by other e-bike standards.

.

I don't, I only have extracts from those present, but be assured there are no enforceable EU reasons why this stance could be opposed..

 

I don't doubt you know a million times more than me about pedelecs, but on EU law, there are plenty of reasons why the UK stances are very vulnerable to challenge The Cassis de Dijon rule which mandates that goods held safe in one member state must be accepted by all, requires that we accept s-pedelecs. That any restriction on use of s-pedelecs with significantly more onerous safety requirements, is a measure having equivalent effect to a quantititative restriction on the movement of goods (an MEQR), which must be justified under one of the mandatory requirements (or Art 36 TFEU). The Italian Trailers case which mandates that all restrictions on movement of goods are a breach of the treaties, which must be justified on compelling grounds of public safety, subject to proportionality rules, including the "least restrictive option" doctrine. Our "moped SVA" regime for anything about 15mph is manifestly not proportionate, in terms of being the least restrictive option to attain a permissible aim (protecting public safety), nor do the burdensome nature of our SVA procedures for s-pedelecs and equivalent bikes (given Germany's s-pedelec approval) fall within the Charter Article 41 requirements on fair administration (which I believe encompasses the "fair procedure" rules developed by the ECJ) - thus also breaching TFEU Art 30 with no proportionality justification.

 

"member states do have entitlements to add variations in a number of areas" - however these and the remaining restrictions must meet the proportionality tests established by EU law on the free movement of goods, and are subject to challenge on these grounds.

 

"Since November 2003 we have lived with our pedelecs in a legislative black hole since we have not yet adopted EU pedelec law" - any EU lawyer will tell you that as soon as a directive (instruction to implement within a set period) is published, no member state can take action which runs in a contrary direction. Otherwise the doctrine of state liability will apply - and be enforceable immediately in a British local court by affected citizens/companies.

 

"In any case, a court ruling might have little effect in Britain" - I'm afraid that's not correct. Every single court in Britain has full power to adjudicate on the full plethora of EU law jurisprudence, even setting aside primary Parliamentary legislation if needs be - all because of s 2(1) of the European Communities Act 1972.

 

" where we now have passed laws known to be illegal under both UK and EU law" - all member states play this game but the nature of the Direct Effect doctrine is that you can have all these statutes set aside - in your local county court. However I'm not sure what you mean about us "pass[ing] laws known to be illegal under ... UK law" - if you mean secondary legislation running counter to primary, that's pretty normal, a judge will overturn. As for being "illegal under... EU law", as I said, that's normal, it goes to the local court, gets overturned, or gets referred up to the ECJ for an opinion.

 

"and where a Prime Minister openly states he will ignore EU court rulings in future." - where has he said this? In any case it's not his decision, because he's accountable to Parliament which passed the ECA 1972 (which gives all EU law direct applicability in the UK) and Parliament has no intention of repealing that statute. So until Parliament expressly repeals that statute, the courts can and will ignore everything the mere head of the executive says, because the courts obey Parliament, not the mere executive.

Edited November 2, 201411 yr by jonathan75

I think they are direct drive with regen - these are the latest Bosch motors. Can you disable the regen?

 

there isn't regen on Bosch motors? What bike have you tested?

"In any case, a court ruling might have little effect in Britain" - I'm afraid that's not correct. Every single court in Britain has full power to adjudicate on the full plethora of EU law jurisprudence, even setting aside primary Parliamentary legislation if needs be - all because of s 2(1) of the European Communities Act 1972.

 

I won't attempt to comment on all the above since I was aware of many of those facts. But the crucial element is contained in the above quoted extract. Whether a court has the power is not the important thing, it's whether their rulings will be enforced, a very different matter in practice.

 

Anyway, I wish you luck if you try to get acceptance of S bikes in the UK. As things stand you are unlikely to succeed. The only thing that might change that is nothing to do with EU law, it will depend entirely on whether the DfT accepts trade representations on the subject. Given our restrictive record, I hate to think what restrictions will be placed on them if the trade did succeed, they could make it a hollow victory.

.

With our narrow bike tracks shared with pedestrians and dogs, speeds of 20 mph would be bloody dangerous I should think. You have to remember that if it's a bike it can use bike facilities. .

 

I think that's a very good point. However. It's worth noting that in Germany, s-pedelecs (i.e. which do 15-30mph) are not allowed to use bicycle paths, but must use the road instead. So the authorities there share your views. It's not a case against the use of s-pedelecs so much as their use on bike paths. Which for me takes the pleasure away because those paths are so much prettier and more relaxing to ride on than roads.

Whether a court has the power is not the important thing, it's whether their rulings will be enforced, a very different matter in practice..

 

I think your lack of confidence about the government enforcing UK court rulings does have a very good justification, but I think it arises from the UK's treatment of a different European area of law, that of the ECHR, with which we have a different relationship -we've dragged our feet e.g. on the blanket prison-resident voting ban for many years. However the EU regime is much more strict, reflected in the very different language of our incorporating statute, the ECA 1972 s 2(1) ("are to have effect") rather than e.g. the HRA 1998 ("[the courts may issue] a declaration of incompatibility [which Parliament and the executive are not bound to remedy]). In the EU case, a ruling IS enforcement because Parliament have decreed it so - the executive has no power to resist, and the court awards you damages or an injunction.

 

If you're right (which you may be) and the DfT were to propose onerous restrictions, the restrictions must be subject again to the proportionality, fair procedure, and TFEU Art 30 requirements (it's the restrictions which are challengeable under EU law primarily, that's historically the majority of the court's caseload). But if a restrictive regime were to survive a legal challenge, at least there would be a rational and predictable one which could encourage a market - rather than the current one for s-pedelecs in the UK (moped + SVA treatment) which is really not proportionate.

 

I wish I had time to fight for s-pedelecs.

Edited November 2, 201411 yr by jonathan75

I guess everybody is tired of this topic, but I have just joined up and have to have my say.

 

I am trying to buy a pedelec, but I don't really want to spend 3 or 4 grand on a new Haibike or KTM unless it does everything I need. I want a bike I can pedal on roads and technical offroad tracks, with as much effort as I can comfortably expend, but I don't have the stamina to keep up with my son who can easily average 20mph over 50miles on his road bike on hilly terrain. He is nothing special fitnesswise.

 

I can personally average 10 or 15 mph over rough hilly tracks for short distances. I can do 20 or 25mph on road for very short distances with no wind and can far exceed this on steep downhills. As I am getting on a bit and have mild asthma and troublesome knees there is no way I can keep this up.

 

The pedelecs I have tried are great up to 15mph, but if I pedal harder there is a braking effect and whatever I do I cannot pedal on the flat at a speed I would be capable of doing on a real bike. Even allowing for the extra weight, if I could disable the motor completlely for short periods and remove the braking effect I would be happy - why is this not possible?

 

The speed of 15mph is perfectly acceptable offroad, but not onroad. I think 20mph would be a reasonable assisted speed onroad and on official bike tracks.This is the opposite of what I understand a lot of people are asking for - obviously for organised offroad events or private location there need be no limits.

 

By the way - so I can cause the usual uproar from the traders here - the UK is being ripped off price wise on ebikes like everything else - the prices in pounds are pretty much the same numbers as they are being sold in Euros in Europe. - Yet another reason for buying over there.

 

Earwig,I can only comment on the bikes that I have knowledge of but I think you are being unfair about uk prices in £ being a ripoff against European bikes priced in euros.

Prices,as of today.

London Electric Bike Company,London

KTM Macina Force 27.......£1699.00

KTM Macina Force 29.......£1699.00

KTM E-Shopper.................£2599.00

KTM Macina Bold 8............£2099.00

 

Electrofahrrad 24.de,Germany

KTM Macina Force 27.......Euro 1999.00 (£1566.00)

KTM Macina Force 29.......Euro 1999.00 (£1566.00)

KTM E-Shopper.................Euro 2999.00 (£2350.00)

KTM Macina Bold 8...........Euro 2499.00 (£1950.00)

 

Firstly,those new KTM Force 27 and 29 bikes appear very good spec and value....the £133.00 difference cannot be called a ripoff,there has to be some margin to allow for exchange rate variations and it costs £60.00 to ship an e-bike across the channel.

I remember the days of grey car imports being massive price differences but I think that has passed now as well.

KudosDave

I think that's a very good point. However. It's worth noting that in Germany, s-pedelecs (i.e. which do 15-30mph) are not allowed to use bicycle paths, but must use the road instead. So the authorities there share your views. It's not a case against the use of s-pedelecs so much as their use on bike paths. Which for me takes the pleasure away because those paths are so much prettier and more relaxing to ride on than roads.

 

Actually I did know that and was pointing out to earwig that his desire to have a 20+mph bike to use on cycleways could be a bit dangerous. As you no doubt know s pedelecs in Germany have other restrictions which make them legally more like mopeds than pushbikes.

I think your lack of confidence about the government enforcing UK court rulings does have a very good justification, but I think it arises from the UK's treatment of a different European area of law, that of the ECHR, with which we have a different relationship -we've dragged our feet e.g. on the blanket prison-resident voting ban for many years. However the EU regime is much more strict, reflected in the very different language of our incorporating statute, the ECA 1972 s 2(1) ("are to have effect") rather than e.g. the HRA 1998 ("[the courts may issue] a declaration of incompatibility [which Parliament and the executive are not bound to remedy]). In the EU case, a ruling IS enforcement because Parliament have decreed it so - the executive has no power to resist, and the court awards you damages or an injunction.

 

Agreed, but once again the practice is different. In a transport example close to us, EU motor vehicle type approval directive 2002/EC/24 was issued to all member states on 9th May 2003 with a requirement to implement it within six months, combined with a demand that all conflicting national legislation be repealed. We missed the implementation deadline by one day and failed to remove conflicting legislation.

 

The DfT were certainly aware of this by 2005 at the latest, but on the 10th of this month this situation will have been in place for fully eleven years, despite constant requests to resolve the situation. It means that all our 250 watt rated e-bikes are and have been illegal for all of those eleven years, though in April last year the DfT arranged with police forces that they would no longer attempt a prosecution since the change to 250 watts was to be made with intended harmonisation measures. They later said that the change was scheduled for 2016 (13 years late!).

 

That's just one example of why I have little faith in UK or EU law to protect me or my rights.

.

Actually I did know that and was pointing out to earwig that his desire to have a 20+mph bike to use on cycleways could be a bit dangerous. As you no doubt know s pedelecs in Germany have other restrictions which make them legally more like mopeds than pushbikes.

 

Anybody who has visited Eurobike in Friedrichshafen will have travelled through the lovely vineyard valleys around Ravensberg. There are some wonderful cycle tracks through those vineyards-it must be frustrating for German S class cyclists to be excluded from using those tracks.

Interestingly the roads in that area are very narrow,used by big trucks and very sharp and steep bends,I wouldn't want to be forced to use those roads when the adjacent cycle tracks look so attractive and safe.

KudosDave

They sound as if they would be good places to cycle on even with an s pedelec. Very unlike most of our cycleways which are designed for very slow shopper bikes, and mix walkers, dogs and children together. Those are my memories of them anyway but there aren't any where I live now. I used to avoid them and stick to the roads when I lived in London.

If you want cycle routes around Germany, then you need look no further than this. http://www.adfc.de/deutschland/alle-routen/uebersicht-aller-routen-aus-deutschland-per-rad-entdecken

Whether a court has the power is not the important thing, it's whether their rulings will be enforced, a very different matter in practice.

 

.

 

Just so.

 

Here in NW London the police only attend burgularies if they're not too busy. Likewise the main traffic policing is done by speed cameras and traffic wardens. The result? Anarchy, of course. A casual observer would think that talking on a mobile phone whilst driving was compulsory rather than illegal.

 

Where we had traffic cops, we now have memories.

 

So just who is going to police these stringent ebike regulations?

 

Maybe they're expecting our local ageing hobby-bobbies to run alongside ebikes and take down their particulars.

 

A

Agreed, but once again the practice is different. In a transport example close to us, EU motor vehicle type approval directive 2002/EC/24 was issued to all member states on 9th May 2003 with a requirement to implement it within six months, combined with a demand that all conflicting national legislation be repealed. We missed the implementation deadline by one day and failed to remove conflicting legislation.

 

The DfT were certainly aware of this by 2005 at the latest, but on the 10th of this month this situation will have been in place for fully eleven years, despite constant requests to resolve the situation. It means that all our 250 watt rated e-bikes are and have been illegal for all of those eleven years, though in April last year the DfT arranged with police forces that they would no longer attempt a prosecution since the change to 250 watts was to be made with intended harmonisation measures. They later said that the change was scheduled for 2016 (13 years late!).

 

That's just one example of why I have little faith in UK or EU law to protect me or my rights.

.

 

Wow - yes I think you put your argument very well. I think the problem here, not just for you but for everyone (except specialist EU lawyers) is the difference between your rights (as implied by caselaw) and those expressed in statute. The important statute here is one which points BACK, annoyingly enough, at the caselaw, i.e. this bit (s 2(1)). So you are made not much wiser about the actual content of those rights.

 

The idea of statutes is supposed to be that we know what they mean, we don't have to be experts, we just turn to their plain meaning. That hasn't happened here. Your rights are hidden in what to non-EU lawyers are very very obscure principles of EU law, developed mainly through the cases. But I assure you they are there! I'm writing an essay partly on this very theme at the moment, the rule of law (a key pillar of which is that legal rules ought to be reasonably easily knowable). That principle seems to have failed with the ebike rules.

Edited November 2, 201411 yr by jonathan75

Just so.

 

Here in NW London the police only attend burgularies if they're not too busy. Likewise the main traffic policing is done by speed cameras and traffic wardens. The result? Anarchy, of course. A casual observer would think that talking on a mobile phone whilst driving was compulsory rather than illegal.

 

Where we had traffic cops, we now have memories.

 

So just who is going to police these stringent ebike regulations?

 

Maybe they're expecting our local ageing hobby-bobbies to run alongside ebikes and take down their particulars.

 

A

Surely this is what the police do best, standing on the side of the road checking bicycles would be easy. Makes them feel like they are doing something. Plus they have pretty much blank cheque for stuff like this. Crime requiring evidence they don't have man power for in my experience.