A law that most people regard as unjust is likely to broken, and ultimately means that laws in general are no longer respected. If i bought a new e bike, I would definitely convert it to throttle. I would use the throttle occasionally, but I would have the reassurance that it was there if needed.

Even add to that list one or more of the charities representing the disabled servicemen coming back from various conflict zones at the moment and point out how much of a requirement the throttle those for those with artificial legs/ leg parts as there seems to be a lot of movement in that area at the moment to support them and no one wants to pass legislation that will disadvantage them!

 

See my reply to Jonathan75 above James. Also I'm investigating another possibility for disabled people in addition to what I posted there.

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A law that most people regard as unjust is likely to broken, and ultimately means that laws in general are no longer respected. If i bought a new e bike, I would definitely convert it to throttle. I would use the throttle occasionally, but I would have the reassurance that it was there if needed.

 

See my reply to Jonathan75 above Neptune. I frankly don't see how this law is unjust when so many countries are happy with what it requires, not just in the EU but many other countries. As said, there are other classes that meet your needs if you must have a throttle.

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I bet half the bikes sold after the deadline will still have throttles. Nobody will care!

See my reply to Jonathan75 above James. Also I'm investigating another possibility for disabled people in addition to what I posted there.

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And this is entirely ignoring the disabled like me who are not able to get and keep a driving licence. There could be a caveat pushed through to make it easier for disabled people to be self sufficient and keep employed by changing the regulations for all, just like they have recently done with the building regs and socket/switch heights to make all new work more generally disabled friendly.

They can argue for the use of throttles in the UK as an action to keep the costs down for the disabled I.e. prevent discrimination! The UK could lead in Europe on this instead of following like sheep.

I symathise with your sentiments James, but that change is not as easy as you suggest.

 

I also feel you've ignored what I said about there being a powered pedal cycle class suitable for them, not only having legal throttles but also the extra power to 1000 watts that many partially disabled people might need to cope with hills.

 

In addition there is a specific class of powered vehicles designed for registered disabled people which are not required to go through type approval. There is and never has been in recent times anything to prevent a supplier designing one on bicycle lines, and I presume it's only a lack of sufficient demand that has prevented one from appearing.

 

So as you see, there are adequate provisions for those disabled to a wide variety of degrees without having to change our electric assist bicycles regulations. Don't forget that an owner doesn't have to take one of these suitable classes through type approval, it's the suppliers responsibility to get it for all the models supplied and they have to supply a copy of the approval certificate to all purchasers.

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Edited February 3, 201511 yr by flecc

I symathise with your sentiments James, but that change is not as easy as you suggest.

 

I also feel you've ignored what I said about there being a powered pedal cycle class suitable for them, not only having legal throttles but also the extra power to 1000 watts that many partially disabled people might need to cope with hills.

 

In addtion there is a specific class of powered vehicles designed for registered disabled people which are not required to go through type approval. There is and never has been in recent times anything to prevent a supplier designing one on bicycle lines, and I presume it's only a lack of sufficient demand that has prevented one from appearing.

 

So as you see, there are adequate provisions for those disabled to a wide variety of degrees without having to change our electric assist bicycles regulations.

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And the ones who can't "register" as disabled but ate still covered by the DDA who lose can potentially have driving licenses etc removed in the blink of an eye on medical grounds? This leaves US nowhere and we're actually probably the majority of the disabled population. (The ones who can take the label and try very hard not to as they have an invisible disablilty!)

Well, it seems from what you say that not registering is a personal choice James. If that makes it difficult to take advantage of the classes I mentioned, surely that's also by choice and hardly the fault of the authorities.

 

What puzzzles me also is why there is no fuss about this throttle issue in any other countries. Some of them have had more disabled than us following WW2 and are very solicitous regarding disabled facilities.

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So you ate saying that if I ever get my driving license back, although I will then be ineligible for a disabled railcard and buspass I would still be allowed to drive one of those type of bikes (without a driving license)? That's not how I've experienced it so far.

 

What puzzzles me also is why there is no fuss about this throttle issue in any other countries. Some of them have had more disabled than us following WW2 and are very solicitous regarding disabled facilities.

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Unlike us they have not had a taste of the forbidden fruit, we have and have found it to be good - given the opportunity I am sure they would too.

Edited February 4, 201511 yr by shemozzle999

So you ate saying that if I ever get my driving license back, although I will then be ineligible for a disabled railcard and buspass I would still be allowed to drive one of those type of bikes (without a driving license)? That's not how I've experienced it so far.

 

I don't quite understand what you are saying James. If you get your driving licence back, how could you be riding without a licence?

 

If your licence qualified you as it might, you'd be legal, if it didn't qualify you for that type of e-bike you could still just take the test for that class for it to be added to your licence.

 

If your driving licence was originally a full one for a car and you qualified for that before February 2001, it pre-qualifies you for that throttle type of e-bike with up to 1000 watts power. If you are restricted from driving a car, you could apply for your licence to be switched to that powered pedal cycle one only. It's group q.

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Edited February 3, 201511 yr by flecc

Unlike us they have not had a taste the forbidden fruit, we have and have found it to be good - given the opportunity I am sure they would too.

 

Perhaps true for many newer entrants, though they had permission for throttles before November 2003 and had some e-bikes with then then. And I never saw or heard of any requests for throttles from them back then. Also they have the disabled so why are they not raising the issue, they surely know motorcycles have throttles.

 

Also, as member Mechaniker (Frank) pointed out, even the USA don't demand throttles on pedelec stuff he supplies, and they've always had permission for them!

 

As he rightly said and I agree, it really is a peculiarly British obsession.

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Perhaps next years UK sales figures will give us an insight to how greatly a throttle is perceived in the UK market;)

Edited February 4, 201511 yr by shemozzle999

Perhaps next years UK sale figures will give us an insight to how greatly a throttle is perceived in the UK market;)

 

Yes, that's going to be interesting, but I'm sure any drop will be temporary while people get used to the new. However, these new measures might well result in L1e-A e-bikes arriving on the market, so a fairer comparison then perhaps a further year later will be the combined sales of the two.

 

I think that powered pedal cycle class could be found very attractive, considering it not only allows throttles but also up to 1000 watts. Anyone having a full car driving licence since before February 2001 or anyone with a former P1 moped licence or a motor cycle licence will be pre-qualified for them, and that's most of us in here.

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I wonder of there is a possible bypass to the throttle question?

As we have been assured the cheaper type pedal sensor only requires movement not torque to activate the motor.

So basically spinning the pedals is required.

If there was then a power control ( like) a throttle.

Could we then have a legal system that operates only when pedalling and gives you throttle control over speed?

I wonder of there is a possible bypass to the throttle question?

As we have been assured the cheaper type pedal sensor only requires movement not torque to activate the motor.

So basically spinning the pedals is required.

If there was then a power control ( like) a throttle.

Could we then have a legal system that operates only when pedalling and gives you throttle control over speed?

 

Any current pedal sensor system that allows overun will need to be reprogrammed for 2016 model as it will not meet the legal requirement.

 

It has been mentioned in the past that what you are suggesting would be allowed but the throttle would only be allowed to operate up to 6kph but I do not know if this is in fact allowable perhaps someone could confirm this.

Throttles that only operate up to 4 mph (UK) or 6 kph (EU) are allowed since that falls within other no-bureaucracy legislation as well. The problem with current implementations of them is that they have little power due to them being a cheap implementation, not due to any law restricting them.

 

Otherwise there is a possible ambiguity. This is what is allowed in the legal pedelec class by exemption:

 

h) pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h;

 

The possible ambiguity is in the meaning of "otherwise" in the second bold part that is in question.

 

If it is "as well as" such a throttle would not be legal. I think that is what is meant.

 

But if it means "instead", that means such a full throttle would be legal under the first half of the bold highlighted statement.

 

Opinions?

 

Of course such interpretations of law are the province of senior judges.

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Edited February 4, 201511 yr by flecc

So our hypothesised system cuts off when the cyclist stops pedalling and has reduction upto 25 circuitry built in. If this system had a secondary limiter as a true throttle reducing power it would be compliant and behave in a similar fashion to D8veh,s beloved throttle?

As far as eZee bikes are concerned the EU throttle issue is already covered, all eZee bikes manufactured since 2012 have several specific modes including one for the EU whereby simply altering a setting on the handlebar console restricts the throttle to 6 Km/h walk assist.

 

We already advise customers about this issue if they wish to take their bike to the EU mainland.

I've long ago posted when discussing this expected change that owners of independent throttle e-bikes should establish proof of the existence of their e-bike before parliament approves the change and there is still time to do that. The minimum I'd suggest is a clear photo of their e-bike with a current newspaper within the photo, showing at least the headlines if not the date.

Not sure that method of proof of existance works. You could just use an old newspaper from before the change of law in your photograph - doesn't prove the bike existed at that point in time.

I wonder of there is a possible bypass to the throttle question?

As we have been assured the cheaper type pedal sensor only requires movement not torque to activate the motor.

So basically spinning the pedals is required.

If there was then a power control ( like) a throttle.

Could we then have a legal system that operates only when pedalling and gives you throttle control over speed?

I would have thought that would be fine - you are in that instance just using a proportional means of adjusting the motor assist level rather than stepping through increasing settings on the display. You needn't even call it a throttle come to think of it.

 

Michael

h) pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h;

 

The possible ambiguity is in the meaning of "otherwise" in the second bold part that is in question.

 

If it is "as well as" such a throttle would not be legal. I think that is what is meant.

 

But if it means "instead", that means such a full throttle would be legal under the first half of the bold highlighted statement.

 

Opinions?

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I think the statement means power must be cut when pedalling stops AND also progressively reduce as speed approaches 25 Kmh.

 

I think that the loss of a throttle option is a shame because I can see how this could benefit some individuals. The evidence suggests that the throttle isn't a great issue within mainland Europe, but I wonder why.

 

If the moped class which you are investigating isn't overburdened with unwelcome requirements (helmet, number plate etc), it could turn out to be a sensible option for those requiring such a machine. The 1000 Watt upper power limit would be very useful too.

 

I think D8ve has a point. Some bikes just require the rider to turn the pedals in order to supply power even though the pedal action is contributing nothing (back pedalling works in some instances). But is this "pedalling?" Agreed, back pedalling might not be, but what about lazily turning the pedals forward?

 

If the above is acceptable and all other requirements are met (motor output progressively reduced (Maybe from 14.75 mph up to cut off!), could a device be introduced to vary the motor power delivered? It would be a throttle in all but name.

 

Edit:

Crossed with mfj197 on the last point.

A normal PAS gives power when you turn the pedals without effort. You can adjust the power level with the up and down buttons, so what would be the point of a throttle like that? The Storck Raddar had exactly that system. It's like continuously adjustable PAS (no steps).

 

Also, as member Mechaniker (Frank) pointed out, even the USA don't demand throttles on pedelec stuff he supplies, and they've always had permission for them!

 

As he rightly said and I agree, it really is a peculiarly British obsession.

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I wonder if Frank could tell us what percentage of USA sales he provides to add some substance to his sweeping statement

Yes, that's going to be interesting, but I'm sure any drop will be temporary while people get used to the new. However, these new measures might well result in L1e-A e-bikes arriving on the market, so a fairer comparison then perhaps a further year later will be the combined sales of the two.

 

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It will probably take longer than a year to recover as I am sure there will be a long term lack of repeat sales as the dealers can only offer a lesser functioning replacement.

To be honest I don't really understand why some able bodied people are so keen on throttles. I Had one on my first bike but apart from hill starts and quick getaways across traffic I didn't use it at all; and as long as the PAS is set up for instant power at a push of a pedal and is not set to lag then you don't even need a throttle for those either.

 

In traffic I used a lower assist level to avoid shooting into the back of a car in front and never felt the need of a throttle there, and the walk assist can be made more powerful legally it seems. So that could be used as a throttle to manoeuvre around heavy traffic if required.