whats the realistic chance of being caught doing anything illegal?

 

due to an admin mistake with my insurance company, I drove for 4 months with no car insurance... including a 4000 mile trip around Europe. Didn't get caught. Would I do it knowingly... no.

TBH, I don't have a throttle on by bike, so the question is purely hypothetical. I am considering upgrading my BBS01 for the XMAX torque sensing CD motor.

 

The reason I am asking it is because possibly one out of 3 e-bike buyers (not your kind of customers Col) need it for mobility issue. If the thottle needs type approval then few importers would bother to get this done. These e-bikers would be tempted to fit one themselves. BTW, I think that even if the importer restricts the throttle to 6mph, it still needs type approval.

BTW, I think that even if the importer restricts the throttle to 6mph, it still needs type approval.

 

EU countries have had the 6 kph (3.6 mph) throttle for years and they are effectively legal. It was first introduced about 2002 by BikeTec on their expensive Panasonic motored Flyers which sold well in Europe but not in the price sensitive UK. BikeTec were the first to modify the Panasonic unit in this way.

 

The reason why they are considered legal is that pedestrian controlled vehicles have exemption from motor vehicle type approval, section 1.1(b) in 2002/24/EC and section 1.1© in EC order 168/2013.

 

The strictest reading is that these only apply to vehicle exclusively designed for pedestrian control, but in practice the EU countries have always accepted this pedelec application by hand throttle and quite a few pedelecs now have the option.

 

The equivalent under old UK EAPC law is the Pedestrian Controlled Vehicles regulation allowing 4 mph, which still continues in addition to the mentioned exemption, the Royal Mail being users of such vehicles. So we have a form of double cover.

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The reason I am asking it is because possibly one out of 3 e-bike buyers (not your kind of customers Col) need it for mobility issue. If the thottle needs type approval then few importers would bother to get this done.

 

There is nothing to stop a supplier specifying a throttle equipped pedelec model exclusively for disabled people which would then not have to be type approved. The exemption from type approval in EC order 168/2013 is:

 

Sub section (b): vehicles exclusively intended for use by the physically handicapped;

 

Any registered disabled person could use such a pedelec entirely legally. Note the wording, not necessarily designed for the disabled, just intended. We have at least two members with one leg using prosthetics and this would suit them.

.

There is nothing to stop a supplier specifying a throttle equipped pedelec model exclusively for disabled people which would then not have to be type approved. The exemption from type approval in EC order 168/2013 is:

 

Sub section (b): vehicles exclusively intended for use by the physically handicapped;

 

Any registered disabled person could use such a pedelec entirely legally. Note the wording, not necessarily designed for the disabled, just intended. We have at least two members with one leg using prosthetics and this would suit them.

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Flecc ,I never realised this exemption,useful knowledge.

KudosDave

Flecc ,I never realised this exemption,useful knowledge.

KudosDave

 

And not the only exemption from type approval with e-bike relevance Dave, how about this one:

 

(k) vehicles equipped with any seating position of the driver or rider having an R-point height ≤ 540 mm in case of categories L1e, L3e and L4e or ≤ 400 mm in case of categories L2e, L5e, L6e and L7e.

 

The R point you may well be familiar with in motor vehicle design, it's the hip position. In practice if a recumbent e-bike or trike has it's seat surface at or under 54 cm from the ground, which many recumbents meet, they are exempt from type approval as any L1e vehicle, therefore also permitting throttle use!

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The reason I am asking it is because possibly one out of 3 e-bike buyers (not your kind of customers Col) need it for mobility issue.

 

not picking holes... genuinely interested.

 

What makes you think 1 in 3 eBike buyers has mobility issues??

Seems to me that what will actually happen is that the mighty Bosh will continue to produce their expensive bikes for continental countries. China will continue to produce their sensibly priced bikes for the UK.

The Chinese ones will come with the appropriate port for a throttle on the controllers.

Ebay will continue to sell throttles.

I never use the throttle to power my machine when riding it , only to use the 6km/hr function to walk up some steep hills in my town . When the machine was new 4 and1/2 years ago I rode up on full assistance , no throttle , but now the battery has degraded , it knocks out too much power . Why struggle up pedalling when you can walk alongside at the same speed conserving the battery ? After reading the foregoing I`m still not sure whether this function will be retained ,as the word throttle appears to be `toxic` to the Authorities . The same caring knowledgeable people that gift £5000 on the purchase of £100,000 Cars with Electric Capability , yet hardly acknowledge that Ebikes exist . I can`t help being a 76 year old cynic , Officialdom has made me this way !

Just browsing You Tube,I came across a video...headed bicycle with electric engine plus throttle in Netherland (snorfiets),must be registered.

The bike clearly is a normal e-bike with rack mounted battery,SWX type front motor,bike by Sachs but it looks a home build.

The video shows the registration plate and the registration document but doesn't seem to have other motorbike features like indicators,headlamps.

Anyone an idea how this is achieved in Holland,maybe very relevant to this thread.

KudosDave

Just browsing You Tube,I came across a video...headed bicycle with electric engine plus throttle in Netherland (snorfiets),must be registered.

The bike clearly is a normal e-bike with rack mounted battery,SWX type front motor,bike by Sachs but it looks a home build.

The video shows the registration plate and the registration document but doesn't seem to have other motorbike features like indicators,headlamps.

Anyone an idea how this is achieved in Holland,maybe very relevant to this thread.

KudosDave

 

Yes, the S class now has a limited legal acceptance in The Netherlands Dave, and as in Germany has a number plate. A home construction has to be taken though single vehicle approval initially. France is next to accept the S class in 2017.

 

Re your wondering about the walk alongside throttle acceptance, as I posted on the previous page the EU has had them for years and they are accepted, They after all have had these identical regulations we are calling new ever since November 2003.

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If the disability exception is ok then ashma and heart lung conditions would also count. The throttle lives( make D8veh happy)

If the disability exception is ok then ashma and heart lung conditions would also count. The throttle lives( make D8veh happy)

I believe the terminology used was "physical handicap" which makes me, with epilepsy ( and the potential for sudden loss of all energy like having just run a marathon with no training but otherwise normal), worried. It also makes me think that asthma and lung conditions probably would not count either.

I believe the terminology used was "physical handicap" which makes me, with epilepsy ( and the potential for sudden loss of all energy like having just run a marathon with no training but otherwise normal), worried. It also makes me think that asthma and lung conditions probably would not count either.

 

I strongly believe any impediment/disability/handicap with a physical origin or component would be included. Handicap seems to me slightly broader than disability in the sense that disability sometimes can carry with it legal connotations (although I might be wrong). Handicap sounds more like 'factual impediment'. But in any case, epilepsy and lung conditions can definitely be regarded as disabilities. Although I respect whatever attitude anyone with a condition wants to take with these labels.

 

However the main difficulty in my experience at least with government-funded equipment, has been to get a supplier to declare that e.g. a laptop is intended as a disability aid, without charging a whopping mark-up for the service of doing so.

 

It might be important to check whether the provision requires that providers be 'registered providers of equipment for people with disabilities' - often that's a requirement for suppliers of government-funded equipment, but probably that's just because there's a real need to ensure fit and proper persons guarantee that bad equipment won't have to be paid for by the govt twice (not sure if there are VAT issues too). If this provision is silent on the matter then probably anybody can supply, so long as they declare it's intended for someone with a disabilty - AFAIK. This is just my sense of what's the case, I might be wrong.

I Can`t play the guitar as well as I used to, and was never all that good at it anyway. Oh and I can`t play the saxophone either. Surely, that must count as a handicap, and entitle me to a throttle?

I Can`t play the guitar as well as I used to, and was never all that good at it anyway. Oh and I can`t play the saxophone either. Surely, that must count as a handicap, and entitle me to a throttle?

Ah but virtuoso oboe counts against you ;-)

I Can`t play the guitar as well as I used to, and was never all that good at it anyway. Oh and I can`t play the saxophone either. Surely, that must count as a handicap, and entitle me to a throttle?

 

You only qualify if you aren't up to playing a harmonium. Then you get an electrically powered throttle controlled billows.

I Can`t play the guitar as well as I used to, and was never all that good at it anyway. Oh and I can`t play the saxophone either. Surely, that must count as a handicap, and entitle me to a throttle?

 

No doubt language differences play a part in our versions of EU orders and that may account for the word "handicapped". The intention was probably what we would express as disabled, and I've little doubt that's the way our authorities intend it.

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Also from the Impact Assessment :

 

6.3. Equalities Assessment

 

It is considered that there are no race, gender or disability equality impacts to the preferred option

 

 

full documentation here:

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/24/impacts

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Edited February 6, 201511 yr by shemozzle999

Unfortunately,there is just not enough volume in UK sales to type approve all the e-bikes in a range and we in the UK do have such varied tastes that it would be impossible to ask customers to focus on a particular e-bike to boost the sales of that one model to justify type approval costs.

Ironically the bigger volumes available to eu manufacturers does justify type approval but those do not consider the UK to be a big enough market to justify the cost to and effort.

KudosDave

 

Hi KudosDave,

 

The extract is a bit of a double edged sword, it might justify that existing throttles be covered by any Grandfather rights by accepting they qualify as being currently not prohibited but on the other hand closes the door on them when the EU regulations come into being in 2016 although nothing has been changed by the EAPC amendment i.e. it still does not specify any method of delivery of the assistance but it can not be used as an excuse to retain them after 2016.

 

It does highlight the removal of throttles though which will impact of some disabled users although the impact assessment appears to not take this into account.

 

Regarding L1e-A only time will tell if these powerful electric bikes will draw a following albeit probably not in the UK as they are still restricted to 25km/h.

 

Also awaiting this update (currently not done) from the Explanatory Memorandum:

 

 

9. Guidance

 

9.1 The Department for Transport has published guidance about EAPC classification and other in-use requirements on the www.gov.uk web site. The guidance will be revised to reflect changes made by these regulations.

 

I hope it will mention Grandfather rights.

Edited February 6, 201511 yr by shemozzle999

I Can`t play the guitar as well as I used to, and was never all that good at it anyway. Oh and I can`t play the saxophone either. Surely, that must count as a handicap, and entitle me to a throttle?

Ha - very good. However I think the legislation means a more than minimal, physically manifesting handicap, to one's capacity to use an ordinary bike, which in turn will be remedied through an electric bike. That's from what they call a 'purposive' reading of the provision.

9. Guidance

 

9.1 The Department for Transport has published guidance about EAPC classification and other in-use requirements on the www.gov.uk web site. The guidance will be revised to reflect changes made by these regulations.

 

I hope it will mention Grandfather rights.

 

This concerns me. I am only a father. I am not old enough to be a grandfather yet so I don't think I will get these rights, nor will the many female members of this forum ever be eligible. I find this talk of "grandfather rights" to be utterly ageist and sexist!

1.5 "The GB Regulations do not prohibit vehicles from being classed as EAPCs if they have "Twist and Go" capability - i.e. vehicles fitted with a motor which can provide power assistance at any time without the rider pedalling (to the extent that such vehicles still meet the criteria in 1.2). However this type of product is now within the scope of EU Regulation 168/2013 and so will need to be type or individually approved for use on roads."

We are still waiting for the DfT to clarify how it can still be an EAPC and yet need type approval.The type approval exemptions are clear that if it is an EAPC it doesn't need type approval. Conversely if it needs type approval it can't be an EAPC.

Edited February 24, 201511 yr by hoppy

True Hoppy, but the DfT are stating that they intend to accept a throttle bike free of other regulation if it conforms to EAPC in all other respects, just so long as it's been type approved.

 

That is because they've adapted the old EAPC law rather than changing to the EU pedelec laws, and the old law does permit throttles. The only reason to insist on the type approval is that 168/2013 which has been adopted requires it.

 

The important thing to note is that 168/2013 does not specify what a pedelec is, it merely exempts that which accords to the pedelec conditions, not the same thing at all.

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Edited February 25, 201511 yr by flecc

P.S. to the above, added 15.55, 25th February:

 

The new EAPC regulations have passed through the committee stage in parliament, and minister Claire Perry included the following statement in her report:

 

There is one more point to respond to. The twist and go classifications will be permitted up to 15.5 mph. A vehicle under that limit will be designated as an EAPC, because it is considered to be a benefit to elderly and less able people. Any twist and go vehicle that can achieve a speed above that will be classified as a moped. Also, an information plate defining what an EAPC is will be fitted on vehicles, so hopefully there will be no doubt about that.

 

That secures the position, twist and go pedelecs will be permitted as legal EAPCs if type approved. That leaves the question of home constructed e-bikes with throttles, but the Type Approval regulation 168/2013 includes a mention that member countries will be able to provide for single vehicle approval in line with that legislation.

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Maybe they will bring out the EAPCSVA for homebuilds .