The difference is that all the electric bicycle control systems do not possess instant hand to eye functionality. The system is devoid of any awareness of the environmental conditions in which it is being used. Where as my throttle is.

Edited February 4, 201511 yr by shemozzle999

The difference is that all the electric bicycle control systems do not possess instant hand to eye functionality. The system is devoid of any awareness of the environmental conditions in which it is being used.

 

But pedal cycles don't either. And pedelecs are supposed to be electrically assisted bicycles.

But pedal cycles don't either. And they are supposed to be electrally assisted bicycles.

 

The person riding it is the control system.

Edited February 4, 201511 yr by shemozzle999

So our hypothesised system cuts off when the cyclist stops pedalling and has reduction upto 25 circuitry built in. If this system had a secondary limiter as a true throttle reducing power it would be compliant and behave in a similar fashion to D8veh,s beloved throttle?

 

I presume so since it would be like the power level switching on existing legal pedelecs such as the Bosch and similar units.

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I think the statement means power must be cut when pedalling stops AND also progressively reduce as speed approaches 25 Kmh.

 

I agree, but demonstrably many existing legal pedelecs scarcely comply with the power reduction. The old Panasonic units clearly did, but the latest ones seem to drive at the same power to almost cutoff.

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It will probably take longer than a year to recover as I am sure there will be a long term lack of repeat sales as the dealers can only offer a lesser functioning replacement.

 

In fact the first year will possibly produce higher sales, since there is by convention a period for dealers to sell existing stock. Past practice means that will be at least six months, also establishing grandfather rights for existing throttle e-bikes.

 

A possible rush for those could be the sales increase element.

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The difference is that all the electric bicycle control systems do not possess instant hand to eye functionality. The system is devoid of any awareness of the environmental conditions in which it is being used. Where as my throttle is.

 

Removing the hand function the Panasonic drive has the instant (circa20ms) response times to adapt to my awareness of the environment. Via the pedal pressure .

That's OK until your crank comes loose or you fall off your bike and hurt your knee or you can't pedal for any other reason , or if your chain snaps, then a throttle becomes necessary, otherwise throttles are not essential, but useful. I don't understand why people can't accept that.

Buying now is ok John, since parliament has still to see and approve the new law. That even makes change posible, but that is extremely unlikely since the consultation was concluded long ago.

 

E-bikes currently bought will be entitled to "grandfather rights" after the change as detailed by the DfT, and that includes having a throttle, since the current UK EAPC law does not prescribe a method of control.

 

Following the change, suppliers of bureacracy free pedelecs will be unable to offer throttles.

 

They will also be able to supply powered bicycles in the L1e-A class for legal road use if type approved for that purpose. As said above, I'm trying to find out what the requirements are for approval and use and I've emailed the DfT for more information on this.

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Flecc perhaps Steve can help you. Below is email of 25.04.14 from him regarding registration of a Sparta E-Speed:

 

Dear James,

 

Good news I can confirm that the CoC that you supplied is genuine, I have checked it against the original approval.

 

The TA Number is: e4*2002/24*[xxxxx]

 

By all means use this email if there is a subsequent problem with DVLA, when you come to register the electric bike concerned, I am known to them (DVLA: my CoC check refers to the above TA No and the VIN: XPTELB[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]).

 

You can find the registration process on DVLA’s website at:

 

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration

 

Essentially you complete a V55/4 application form and supply the CoC document with that application form. If you have any questions regards that process please contact the DVLA at: [....]

 

I hope this helps you.

 

 

Regards

 

Steve

 

| Legislation Manager | Vehicle Certification Agency |

Flecc perhaps Steve can help you. Below is email of 25.04.14 from him regarding registration of a Sparta E-Speed:

 

Thanks James, I'll try that route. My main concern now is the new rules for L1e-A which I now think from what I've found out so far may not apply until 1st January 2016. That of course is the old Low Powered Moped class, also known now as the Powered Pedal Cycle class.

 

Unlike the e-speed, these are still restricted to 25 kph (15.5 mph) and I want to know if registration is required in the UK. The reason I think it might not be is that the type approval requirements for these does not require checking for a space for a number plate on the bike. That then begs the question, is third party insurance required, since that cannot be monitored without registration and number plates.

 

So far there only seems to be an assortment of incomplete details about L1e-A, despite them already being permitted and the Q category driving licence available.

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I do not use a throttle at the moment.Most of my miles are done on a pedal cycle, which i am happy to use because I can pedal thirty miles in a day, and more. The day must inevitably come when that no longer holds true, and then I will be buying an electric bike. There are many people who would like to ride bike, but can no longer pedal. These are the people who will need throttles.Some do not have a license any more, and some never have had a license

 

We have had throttles for many years. No one has died as a result. The sky has not fallen. Suddenly those wanting a throttle will have to jump through hoops and pay for the privilege. Big Brother just can not leave well alone. Has he ever heard of "If it aint broke, don`t fix it."?

 

This is e cigs revisited. The situation at present is fine, but that is all about to change. As regards what people are happy with in other countries, to me that is totally irrelevant. In some countries, people are perfectly happy to watch while people are beheaded in public.

As regards what people are happy with in other countries, to me that is totally irrelevant.

 

The problem is that there is relevance Neptune. We chose to join the EU and that has always had harmonisation objectives* from the beginning, the earliest of which being transport. This change is completion of harmonisation for electric assist bicycles, our previous step in this direction being the increase of our previous 12 mph assist limit to 15 mph to align with the EU.

 

Would you have protested about that?

 

* Harmonisation of transport law is obviously necessary in a borderless Europe, since vehicles cross national boundaries.

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Edited February 4, 201511 yr by flecc

I do not use a throttle at the moment.Most of my miles are done on a pedal cycle, which i am happy to use because I can pedal thirty miles in a day, and more. The day must inevitably come when that no longer holds true, and then I will be buying an electric bike. There are many people who would like to ride bike, but can no longer pedal. These are the people who will need throttles.Some do not have a license any more, and some never have had a license

 

We have had throttles for many years. No one has died as a result. The sky has not fallen. Suddenly those wanting a throttle will have to jump through hoops and pay for the privilege. Big Brother just can not leave well alone. Has he ever heard of "If it aint broke, don`t fix it."?

 

This is e cigs revisited. The situation at present is fine, but that is all about to change. As regards what people are happy with in other countries, to me that is totally irrelevant. In some countries, people are perfectly happy to watch while people are beheaded in public.

 

 

This thread is becoming a bit like all those illegal bike ones where someone points out the law and a lot of people howl at him as if he was responsible for it. it is what it is and it doesn't look as though it can be changed, so there really is no use kicking against the pricks.

John Cade, you have point. It was never my intention to shoot the messenger. However, as our freedoms are chipped away little by little, I feel duty bound to at least say something. I suppose that in a way it all comes down to whether you are anti or pro the EU. Whilst I am anti, I respect the right of others to hold a different view, As the Yanks say, mileage may vary.

Extract from Impact Assessment of the EAPC ammendment regulation 2015 via this link:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukia/2015/25/pdfs/ukia_20150025_en.pdf

 

1.5 The GB Regulations do not prohibit vehicles from being classed as EAPCs if they have "Twist and Go" capability - i.e. vehicles fitted with a motor which can provide power assistance at any time without the rider pedalling (to the extent that such vehicles still meet the criteria in 1.2). However this type of product is now within the scope of EU Regulation 168/2013 and so will need to be type or individually approved for use on roads.

 

this is the first time I have seen any government published statement confirming the above so I hope this means throttles will be covered by Grandfather rights.

Edited February 4, 201511 yr by shemozzle999

As you know the DfT have said in 2013 that existing e-bikes with throttles will have grandfather rights to continue in use, but that won't extend to any e-bike bought after the effective date of the new regulations.

 

Any e-bike with a throttle bought after that will have to be type approved and fall into the L1e-A class of motor vehicle.

 

My only concern now is to find out if the UK will require anything more for L1e-A than the EAPC pedelec regulations if one complies in all other respects to EAPC, e.g. 250 watts. Examples of possible requirements are the new driving licence category Q, registration, insurance, MOTs, compulsory helmet wearing etc.

 

The confusion arises from the fact that L1e-A permits 1000 watts which clearly doesn't match the EAPC specifications as required in that statement. This would seem to exclude L1e-A from being considered EAPCs, contradictory to that section 1.5 statement.

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Edited February 4, 201511 yr by flecc

I had long expected this to be the outcome. I could see no politician sticking his neck out to appease the requirements of a limited number of people,even though I personally sympathise with the usefulness of a throttle to that group of people.

Kudos has now only 2 bikes with a full speed throttle,that is the Safari and Secret....the Safari will be sold out before the regs come into effect and the Secret is easily throttle removed.

The latter point raises an interesting question,what would be the situation in law if an e-bike was supplied with a throttle but disconnected at say the controller,if the customer chose to reconnect it?

All the latest Kudos bikes are to EU spec without full speed throttles and are currently selling very well so any effect on Kudos will be minimal.

Shame that The minority were ignored,just no political mileage in going against the EEC.

KudosDave

Extract from Impact Assessment of the EAPC ammendment regulation 2015 via this link:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukia/2015/25/pdfs/ukia_20150025_en.pdf

 

1.5 The GB Regulations do not prohibit vehicles from being classed as EAPCs if they have "Twist and Go" capability - i.e. vehicles fitted with a motor which can provide power assistance at any time without the rider pedalling (to the extent that such vehicles still meet the criteria in 1.2). However this type of product is now within the scope of EU Regulation 168/2013 and so will need to be type or individually approved for use on roads.

 

this is the first time I have seen any government published statement confirming the above so I hope this means throttles will be covered by Grandfather rights.

Unfortunately,there is just not enough volume in UK sales to type approve all the e-bikes in a range and we in the UK do have such varied tastes that it would be impossible to ask customers to focus on a particular e-bike to boost the sales of that one model to justify type approval costs.

Ironically the bigger volumes available to eu manufacturers does justify type approval but those do not consider the UK to be a big enough market to justify the cost to and effort.

KudosDave

So, am I correct in believing that my wife's Woosh Santana with full throttle will still be legal after this? We bought it in 2013.

So, am I correct in believing that my wife's Woosh Santana with full throttle will still be legal after this? We bought it in 2013.

It won't be legal, but it won't be illegal either. This is going to be as much of a mess as the 250w rule today. As I said before, nobody will care about throttles as long as your bike is limited to 15.5 mph and has a 250w motor (or less).

 

To answer Kudos Dave's point. There's already a few controllers around, where you can switch from 6km/h throttle to independent throttle. You can change it just like the speed limit.

I can see the end result being little different,it's just you won't be able to buy an e-bike already fitted with a throttle. There are similar situations already,which i hasten to add I don't approve of but on a practical level they exist and nobody seems to do much about them...

1. 350 watt x 28 mph bikes...we all know these are illegal but the police and trading standards seem impotent to do anything about them.

2. Dongles.....which halve the perceived speed,allowing up to 30 mph power,many Bosch bikes are fitted with them,clearly visible,does anyone know of a prosecution of a dongle equipped bike.

3. King Meter type displays....most know that by knowledgable button pushing you can move the restricted speed up to above 20 mph. This feature exists on most e-bikes with this display but I know of no attempt by the authorities to enforce the deletion of this feature.

4. Throttles,I can see no reason why the throttle system should not be fitted to the e-bike as long as it is disabled,if a customer decides to illegally reconnect that is personal choice.

As a manufacturer I obviously have to produce bikes that comply with the law effective in the UK,but a bike could be fitted with facilities that would be legal elsewhere,the default setting would have to be UK legal at point of sale.

We are all having an interesting chat as to the effects of these new regs,but the ultimate effect would probably be nil change or at worse a minor annoyance.

KudosDave

So, am I correct in believing that my wife's Woosh Santana with full throttle will still be legal after this? We bought it in 2013.

 

It will be legal since, as the DfT have acknowledged, there will be "grandfather rights" for existing e-bikes. Laws are almost never retrospective, and this is usually true of transport laws. Also EU regulations, which this was, are never retrospective. The position is quite the opposite in fact, since with such changes suppliers are normally given a period of grace to sell existing stock, typically six months, and those sold in that way remain legal indefinitely.

 

An example is that cars have to have approved seatbelts fitted when supplied, but the older cars that are on the road which were manufactured before seatbelts were fitted as standard have been legal ever since and will remain so indefinitely. In earlier years the same waiver applied with many vehicle lighting changes.

 

As Kudos Dave has said, it's not really such a big change and the effects will soon be forgotten.

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what is the realistic chance of being booked for having a throttle on your e-bike after October 2015?

what is the realistic chance of being booked for having a throttle on your e-bike after October 2015?

 

whats the realistic chance of being caught doing anything illegal?

 

due to an admin mistake with my insurance company, I drove for 4 months with no car insurance... including a 4000 mile trip around Europe. Didn't get caught. Would I do it knowingly... no.

due to an admin mistake with my insurance company, I drove for 4 months with no car insurance... - - - - - - - Would I do it knowingly... no.

 

I had the same for an entire year, only finding out when I went to renew tax online. Since then I check all VED, insurance and MOT renewals are shown online shortly after carrying them out.

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