If it had not been for Woosh supplying a Santana at £625, I probably would still be pedalling to work with aching hips etc. I did 5000 miles in two years, with two new tyres and some brake pads/blocks. The chain was original when I sold the bike for £120, and it's still being used. (One new spoke in rear wheel). While £800 may not seem much to some people, there are people in the UK struggling to keep a roof over their heads, and needing transport to get to work to pay for that roof.

Artstu....I have already made that bike,it is my Kudos Rapide and Sonata,I had a choice to put a crank drive unit in that bike but I prefer the BPM hub drive over the crank drive.

KudosDave

 

Yes I knew that. Guessing they didn't sell well then? that's brought us back to the persuasion point. However as a business man you choose to build the cheaper bikes that annoy you, because you know they're easier to sell.

Yes I knew that. Guessing they didn't sell well then? that's brought us back to the persuasion point. However as a business man you choose to build the cheaper bikes that annoy you, because you know they're easier to sell.

 

Artstu....they are selling ok,but at £1300 you have to spend time explaining all the extra quality,at £1000 they sell themselves.

As a designer it's nice to produce the best you can,it is a bit frustrating that if you put a German name on a bike you can get £500 more for it even though you know the Germans are buying their frames from the same factory and selecting their parts from the same Chinese parts bin.

Yes my new models are all targeted at the UK preferred maximum price point of £1000,one is £695.00-a unique bike but not released until April/May,no further info at the moment.

KudosDave

...

if you put a German name on a bike you can get £500 more for it ..

 

I use the Tasman Impulse HS-8 11AH as the standard bearer for £1500 German bikes. I don't think you can beat that with a £1,000 Chinese bike.

https://www.50cycles.com/electric-bikes/activity-e-bikes/tasman_impulse_8_hs_11ah.html

 

Besides the paint quality, you have bespoke elements like their rear mudguard support that guarantees that the mudguard will look straight out of the box, rack with hanger for your pump etc. These are small things but real obstacles in finding a suitable factory in China to make for you in small series. Before you say, but they fit the Nexus hub gear instead of alfine and cheap SR CR-8V fork instead of Rockshox, Kalkhoff install reasonable quality essential stuff like Magura HS11 front and rear, Schwalbe tyres etc. very expensive to source in China.

Nexus inter 8 hub actually has better press than the Alfine version. And I am still scratching my head over the quality jump between HS11 and HS33 brakes the HS11 is so good why pay more for the HS33.

 

Tyres and wheels are where the Chinese bikes fall down badly. My experience is with Decathlon and even they have started mounting Hutchinson and Continental etc and double walled rims on their big ticket (over 450 €) bikes.

A forum member,named Jonathan Pallant,kindly came up to me at one of the shows to say how pleased he is with his Kudos Tourer/Nexus 8.

It's nice when customers do that and much appreciated.

Jonathan uses the bike every day for a 28mile commute,he has put a very fair review in the review section of this forum,he has covered 4000 miles in 10 months.

His review is not all positive,it's probably typical of any electric bike being used that much,but his review is real and shows that you don't have to spend £2.5k to reliably complete that task.

The Tourer/N8 is to my mind an underrated bike,it won't be made again because it's heavy and customers seem to want their bikes to be lighter,there are a few left at £895.00

KudosDave

I use the Tasman Impulse HS-8 11AH as the standard bearer for £1500 German bikes. I don't think you can beat that with a £1,000 Chinese bike.

https://www.50cycles.com/electric-bikes/activity-e-bikes/tasman_impulse_8_hs_11ah.html

 

Besides the paint quality, you have bespoke elements like their rear mudguard support that guarantees that the mudguard will look straight out of the box, rack with hanger for your pump etc. These are small things but real obstacles in finding a suitable factory in China to make for you in small series. Before you say, but they fit the Nexus hub gear instead of alfine and cheap SR CR-8V fork instead of Rockshox, Kalkhoff install reasonable quality essential stuff like Magura HS11 front and rear, Schwalbe tyres etc. very expensive to source in China.

 

Trex....but that bike is normally £1895.00,it is currently on special at £1495.00,with the Impulse 2 motor!

Not really a current fair comparison.

KudosDave

The Kudos Rapide at £1,395 looks a bit over-priced.

 

Most of the kit is distinctly average, coil spring fork, Kenda tyres, no name wheels, heavy phosphate battery, separate controller tie-wrapped to the seat post.

 

The package doesn't say 'quality' to me, in comparison to bikes costing only a few hundred more from the likes of Cube, KTM and Kalkhoff.

 

A sixty quid hub wheel is way, way cheaper than a Bosch/Yamaha crank drive, so where's the value hiding in the Kudos bike?

 

Two things occur.

 

Dave is being greedy by wanting too much margin in the Rapide.

 

More likely, he cannot buy the bits cheap enough to sell the Rapide at a more reasonable £1,000 or so.

 

I'm sure the global bike brands can source components a lot cheaper than a relatively tiny company such as Kudos.

The Kudos Rapide at £1,395 looks a bit over-priced.

 

Most of the kit is distinctly average, coil spring fork, Kenda tyres, no name wheels, heavy phosphate battery, separate controller tie-wrapped to the seat post.

 

The package doesn't say 'quality' to me, in comparison to bikes costing only a few hundred more from the likes of Cube, KTM and Kalkhoff.

 

A sixty quid hub wheel is way, way cheaper than a Bosch/Yamaha crank drive, so where's the value hiding in the Kudos bike?

 

Two things occur.

 

Dave is being greedy by wanting too much margin in the Rapide.

 

More likely, he cannot buy the bits cheap enough to sell the Rapide at a more reasonable £1,000 or so.

 

I'm sure the global bike brands can source components a lot cheaper than a relatively tiny company such as Kudos.

 

Damn,got caught out....the company yacht is due for replacement,got to get the money from somewhere,hehe!

Tektro hydraulic brakes,Samsung lithium manganese battery,top of the range Suntour forks,BPM-CST motor,Shimano Deore gears,King Display,Polycarb mudguards.....compare the Sonata to the KTM Macina Bold,costing £600 more.

I don't select the BPM hub motor against the Bosch crank drive purely on price,I genuinely think it has better hill climbing ability,more suited to our terrain.

I think you have been persuaded by the strength of the Bosch publicity machine,these Bosch motored bikes are under powered for our terrain,the compromise of turning the power down to execute smooth loaded gearchanges badly affects the uphill performance. If Bosch had made BPM hub style motors and put their marketing machine behind it I doubt whether crank drive would exist,the others feel they have to make crank drive to be taken serious against the Bosch,no other reason.

My supplier is the largest e-bike manufacturer in the world,making over 3 million units per annum,also the largest frame manufacturer in the world....KTM,Kalkhoff etc are tiny companies relative to them and the Chinese always look after their own,I doubt they buy more competitively.

Signed,greedy KudosDave

Edited February 6, 201610 yr by Kudoscycles

Oxygen bikes are the one that I consider to be way off the mark price wise.

I'd sooner walk than pay 1.6k for this http://www.oxygenbicycles.com/e-bikes/oxygen-mtb-x

 

I for one think that the market for sub 1k e-bikes is a very beneficial one. Whilst component quality might not be on par with higher end bikes, the price bracket does enable many to enter the e-bike market for the first time, and hopefully then get hooked, when they realise what the benefits are to owning and riding one.

Inevitably because of the cheaper OE components, these bikes might, if not properly maintained, wear out at a faster rate than a higher priced bike, but by that stage, the owner might have already been researching higher spec bikes, and be ready to take the plunge into a larger investment. Occasionally I might read something where someone is criticising a low spec or cheaply* priced bike, and to me this wrong. Without these cheaper* bikes, the higher end market might suffer. The only time that I would criticise is when the lower spec bike is pitched at an overinflated price, as in the case of Oxygen bikes.

 

 

* Accepting that what I am referring to as cheap, could equally be alot of money to someone else. Cheap probably isn't the right expression.

Artstu....they are selling ok,but at £1300 you have to spend time explaining all the extra quality,at £1000 they sell themselves.

As a designer it's nice to produce the best you can,it is a bit frustrating that if you put a German name on a bike you can get £500 more for it even though you know the Germans are buying their frames from the same factory and selecting their parts from the same Chinese parts bin.

Yes my new models are all targeted at the UK preferred maximum price point of £1000,one is £695.00-a unique bike but not released until April/May,no further info at the moment.

KudosDave

KD, why not check in to a Travel Lodge in Dusseldorf for the weekend, knock up a rough design for your next bike, give it a suitably Teutonic name then plaster it with 'Designed in Germany' stickers?

 

How about the Kudos Doppelganger, Schadenfreude or Weltschmerz?

I think you have been persuaded by the strength of the Bosch publicity machine, KudosDave

 

Dave,

 

It has nothing to do with the Bosch publicity machine.

 

Crank drives, particularly 'name' ones such as Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano Steps and Impulse/Kalkhoff are a lot more expensive than hub motors.

 

Thus a bike with a name crank drive for £1,600 or so looks a lot better value than your Rapide with a sub-£100 hub motor at £1,400.

 

Oh, and the only Kalkhoff hub motor bike on sale in the UK is £1,295, and it has hub gears.

KD, why not check in to a Travel Lodge in Dusseldorf for the weekend, knock up a rough design for your next bike, give it a suitably Teutonic name then plaster it with 'Designed in Germany' stickers?

 

How about the Kudos Doppelganger, Schadenfreude or Weltschmerz?

 

It's awfully tempting but I am afraid very illegal,big fines possible. In my industry there was a company called Schreider suspension,all covered in German stickers,trying to compete with Bilstein,Eibach.

Schreider was made in Chelmsford,Essex.

The big boys ganged up on him and he stopped trading.

Do you remember that Wisper put Union Jack stickers on his Shanghai built bike,he knew that trading standards would enforce that transgression.

Many have tried 'designed in the U.K.' or 'conceived in Germany'....the design was drawn on a fag packet in the bar of some hotel!

The number of times I see a lazer engraver in China putting 'Italian design' or 'Milan' or ' Koln' on a product is amusing. The US stop it by having a law that if more than 40% is made outside the US,it must have the country of origin,maybe 'made in China'

It's strange our law says that if you put 'made in X' it has to be made in X,but if you put nothing it can come from anywhere.

But it's dishonest and it inevitably gets found out,then the publicity is self defeating....most customers want straight trading.

KudosDave

Edited February 6, 201610 yr by Kudoscycles

* Accepting that what I am referring to as cheap, could equally be alot of money to someone else. Cheap probably isn't the right expression.

 

Inexpensive is a handy word, no implications of poor quality.

.

Reasonably priced could sound even better.

 

KD, that last sentence is interesting "most customers want straight trading" One of my pet hates is certain 'reasonably priced' bikes, being sold and described as mtb's. This description couldn't be further from the truth, and the bikes would call it a day at the first mole hill. I notice that Oxygen have now decided to add "style" after mtb.

Edited February 6, 201610 yr by EddiePJ

Many have tried 'designed in the U.K.' or 'conceived in Germany'....the design was drawn on a fag packet in the bar of some hotel!

 

The drinks industry seems to get away with misleading names though, the pseudo Russian name Smirnoff for a vodka is typical, and there's many more examples.

.

Glad that you didn't mention St Austell brewery, and Tribute.

I'm sure the global bike brands can source components a lot cheaper.

that seems to be the case. However, I think the real issue of matching German build quality is not components. After all, you can cut margin and compete after you have made a good enough bike. But e-bikes rely on electronics. Key Chinese firms like Lishui and Bafang do not release their API so British firms cannot value-add to Chinese electronics via software or add-ons. Until that situation is resolved, we are stuck with Chinese designs, like it or not. You will see stupid situations like Chinese designs require brake sensors, narrowing down very significantly the choice of HDBs (only Zoom and Tektro have HDB cylinders suitable for integrated sensors) and increasing complexity.

Edited February 6, 201610 yr by trex

Dave,

 

It has nothing to do with the Bosch publicity machine.

 

Crank drives, particularly 'name' ones such as Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano Steps and Impulse/Kalkhoff are a lot more expensive than hub motors.

 

Thus a bike with a name crank drive for £1,600 or so looks a lot better value than your Rapide with a sub-£100 hub motor at £1,400.

 

Oh, and the only Kalkhoff hub motor bike on sale in the UK is £1,295, and it has hub gears.

 

Rob....I am not sure we agree or disagree on this point. I realise that the Bosch type crank motors are more expensive. The Bafang Max Drive is also much more expensive than the BPM motor.

But my point is whether this expense is necessary.

I have taken a Bosch motor apart and also a BPM motor apart,the Bosch motor is so over designed relative to the BPM motor. It seems to me that once the decision was made to go crank drive the Bosch engineers had to overcome the problems associated with that design by an increasingly complicated design,this is particularly true of Bosch MK2.

The Bafang sales guys admitted to me that they only manufactured the Bafang Max Drive to directly compete with the Bosch unit,I suspect the same applies to Shimano and Yamaha,if that is what German buyers want then give it to them.

Not sure you can buy a fully equipped( by that I mean lights,mudguards etc) German Bosch powered e-bike for £1600. But I do agree that an English/Chinese priced e-bike at £1400 is in a difficult marketing price point,whatever the specification,which is why I will not build a Bafang Mid Drive e-bike and sell it in the UK,it is too close to the price of a branded German assembled e-bike. There was a well known company at the NEC who were showing such bikes,priced £1600....my comment was that you needed a German brand name at that price level.

I haven't bought any car in the last 20 years that isn't VW,Audi or BMW so I suppose I also German branded led.

But this all started when a forum member asked why we don't put higher spec hardware on UK sourced bikes,the foregoing answers that question.

I suppose the best compliment that testers make when they ride my Kudos Rapide and Sonata is that 'it rides like a German bike'. I don't have loads so are relaxed that they will sell,albeit slowly.

In the meantime back to designing £1000 bikes.

KudosDave

http://www.mhw-bike.com/cube-cross-hybrid-pro-400-black-n-red-2016-4692

 

79 euro left for lights guards ect

Reasonably priced could sound even better.

 

KD, that last sentence is interesting "most customers want straight trading" One of my pet hates is certain 'reasonably priced' bikes, being sold and described as mtb's. This description couldn't be further from the truth, and the bikes would call it a day at the first mole hill. I notice that Oxygen have now decided to add "style" after mtb.

 

The current vogue is 'competitively priced'.what does that mean?

KudosDave

http://www.mhw-bike.com/cube-cross-hybrid-pro-400-black-n-red-2016-4692

 

79 euro left for lights guards ect

 

That is a very cheap bike,ahem very competitively priced bike. Chain reaction cycles have it for £1499.00

KudosDave

Rob....I am not sure we agree or disagree on this point. I realise that the Bosch type crank motors are more expensive. The Bafang Max Drive is also much more expensive than the BPM motor.

But my point is whether this expense is necessary.

I have taken a Bosch motor apart and also a BPM motor apart,the Bosch motor is so over designed relative to the BPM motor. It seems to me that once the decision was made to go crank drive the Bosch engineers had to overcome the problems associated with that design by an increasingly complicated design,this is particularly true of Bosch MK2.

The Bafang sales guys admitted to me that they only manufactured the Bafang Max Drive to directly compete with the Bosch unit,I suspect the same applies to Shimano and Yamaha,if that is what German buyers want then give it to them.

Not sure you can buy a fully equipped( by that I mean lights,mudguards etc) German Bosch powered e-bike for £1600. But I do agree that an English/Chinese priced e-bike at £1400 is in a difficult marketing price point,whatever the specification,which is why I will not build a Bafang Mid Drive e-bike and sell it in the UK,it is too close to the price of a branded German assembled e-bike. There was a well known company at the NEC who were showing such bikes,priced £1600....my comment was that you needed a German brand name at that price level.

I haven't bought any car in the last 20 years that isn't VW,Audi or BMW so I suppose I also German branded led.

But this all started when a forum member asked why we don't put higher spec hardware on UK sourced bikes,the foregoing answers that question.

I suppose the best compliment that testers make when they ride my Kudos Rapide and Sonata is that 'it rides like a German bike'. I don't have loads so are relaxed that they will sell,albeit slowly.

In the meantime back to designing £1000 bikes.

KudosDave

 

I think we largely agree.

 

Part of your marketing problem - if you see it as one - is you've pushed the spec and price up with the Rapide at time when Bosch/Yamaha bikes have come down a bit in price.

 

My notional £1,600 name crank bike would be naked, so I agree a fully kitted commuter name crank bike would be about £250 more.

 

I've not yet found an ebike that matches the smooth power delivery of a Bosch, although I take Bob from Juicy's point made elsewhere about torque sensing electronics coming to hub motor bikes.

 

I expect one of those, properly set up, would ride very nicely.

 

If the cheapness of the hub motor was reflected in the retail price of such a bike, it could do well.

I also think we largely agree.

The problem with pure torque sensing bikes,that is those without speed sensor overrides,is that you have to input power to get power out.

Many customers don't realise how they work,they have been told that to get fit you need a torque sensor and who wants to admit that they don't want to get fit.

But when you explain that tired after a long ride they have to press the pedals to get power most go for a speed sensor,even though it takes away the intuitive ride.

England 15 - Scotland 6.....20 mins left.

KudosDave

I have just read this post:

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/ktm-macina-force-29.23273/

 

Stumpy150 reported the problem he had with his Tektro front disc brakes on his KTM Macina Force 29 including a ' trouser filing moment'. I would like to say that some problems (even rare) should be reported but not treated as typical issue of 'cheap components'. Brakes and forks are often used in the exchanges re 'Chinese v German' discussions, eg. Magura = good, Tektro = bad, Rockshox/Fox=good, SR/RST=bad. If anything, it confirms what KD said about German/Austrian/British bike companies sharing the same part bins, all made in Asia.

I don't buy into the common prejudice that Chinese rims are bad either. Most bikes have double walled rims nowadays, they are as tough as anything costing 10 times their price with a fancy sticker.

Back to the original topic, whether £800 is enough to get you a bike that you can use as every day transport, I would say now, after reading the entire thread, that it's a cautious yes if you don't mind riding a 24kg bike instead of a 22kg bike and are prepared to forgo the services of a local dealer.

Edited February 6, 201610 yr by trex