This very recent thread offers the same advice and the upgrade is similar to yours with a speed controller. The KT is the most commonly available after market electronics to buy for an upgrade and the most user friendly most give little issue and most issues tend to be incorrect installation by the end user.

If you look around yo will find cheaper systems but they aren't a patch on the KT's.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/pendleton-somerby-upgrade.37785/

UK resellers ask to much for a controller and lcd as well as not selling peripherals if you need them so it is better buying direct from a good reliable China vendor.

This one I can highly recommend with everything in one place.

http://www.topbikekit.com/t09s-36v48v450w500w-torque-simulation-sine-wave-controller-for-ebike-p-734.html

Every thing you need is on the same page by selecting the items from the drop down boxes, before you buy check back here so we can see you have all the items you will need also you can check your various connectors to see if any match to save buying items you don't need.

On top of the final price inc courier delivery you will have to pay a small duty & handling fee of about £18 -£22 payble to the courier/DHL before they deliver it from the UK depot, all in it will not be no more expensive then from a UK seller who mark them up quite a bit and most only sell the controller and LCD.

 

Thanks ever so much! I will spec up a controller etc this coming weekend. Either way, it appears that you expect the battery is the current issue with the setup I currently have on the bike?

 

So with this in mind, first thing is to replace the battery like for like. I just don’t want to pay for a new battery and it not solve the current issue and then pay for a KT controller and display to then have to buy another battery Down the line. It would make more sense to buy a full conversion ‘kit’ and jump to 48v/1000w to gain addition range. My current plan was to buy an additional battery for longer rides with friends.

 

also, is there any way of learning more around the setup/installation/terminology?articles/posts/etc. You’ve been such a help and really knowledgable, I’d love to learn more to understand for future reference.

 

thanks as ever

Hi Matt,

Been reading this with interest, that and doing 5 different installations is the way I've learnt. Each one throws up it's own curiosities.

On the battery, it does sound like yours is well on it's way out. If you put a new battery on the existing controller it will work but be under the stress of constant 700w demand. This is a nominal current draw of 20A, so a new battery would, ideally, be capable of delivering 1.5 times this as a maximum, in order to minimise stress on your new battery. Yosepower have been a good supplier for me - shipping from a German wharehouse there was no duty to pay.

 

Think I might do it the other way round, change controller/display set up, get it all running nicely, then source a new battery.

 

I have an Ezee hub and this is speed control, so I run two batteries in parrallel to feed it. It's not subtle but it does get me round the Welsh hills. Here's the odd thing (mathmatically at least). Pas 2 gives me around 11-12mph on the flat. Pas3 will give me 14-15mph on the flat. So on a given journey (let's say 10 miles), as the system always runs at max current, then I will use less battery in pas3 than I will in pas2 as the journey takes less time. I KNOW, bonkers right?

In practice (I've done the same journeys in different settings) the best that can be said is that it doesn't seem to use more capacity in the higher setting.

The slower speed wiil pull more torque and current longer, the higher speed is near the cut off if legal so as the speed rises the current backs off.

 

The suggested 1000w kit is and probably will not feel as good as the current hub motor as the motor will be a D/D drive hub and not ideal for slow speed or inclines unless one highly specs the electronics at a greater cost, power comes with a price.

Ideally you will need to look for a more substantial controller 30- 40a out put and then a an ever costly battery able to out put an the 40a continuous using cells capable of a much higher discharge when in parallel so that they are not stressed.

 

All you can do is research and read, the Endless sphere forum in the US is a massive data base of info once you find your way around the massive thread index. For any powerful hub/motor the battery is key which means cost.

I agree with Ben a new controller set up is needed before anew battery with the current speed controller set up, as you have seen lower powered motors can take more current watts and 250w hubs can take up to about 1000w if you don't abuse the higher wattage all the time and just save it for temporary use.

 

You have to set out your goals cost of buying and funding said kit, extra cost for a high spec heavier battery and the extra weight of D/D hub these typically weigh about 5 - 6kg. The battery and hub will alone add a min of 3kg of weight to the hand bike, dead weight uses up more battery energy.

Matt your current hub motor looks like a 500w geared hub probably a Bafang from the glimpse in the pic of it, a 48v 1000w D/D hub won't be an improvement tbh over it.

 

Some more pics of it and any writing on the motor would be useful then we can see what it's speed rating might be.

 

The 500w if a geared hub at least it is a more user friendly motor being that if you had to it will be rideable with low gearing should you have a power issue as you have at the mo, a D/D hub would be dead in the water. The 500w hub will easily take a 30a controller but again you will need a very good battery at that current.

Your current battery 13000mah/13ah just hasn't got the required continuous discharge rate to cope with the 22a continuous current it is seeing at the moment, as I mentioned earlier I am 99% certain it is using low current power 5a Samsung 26F 2600mah cells which are now past it.

I had the same cells in a pair of batteries used on a 250w hub kit delivering 17a max current and they lost about 25% range over a 18 - 24 month period as I too would max out the speed and current, my max current use would have been about 450 - 500w so less then your 700w you are seeing. My batteries never saw voltage self discharge after charging they did remain in a usable fair condition unlike yours which are failing as the max charge voltage and self discharge of < 41v is showing.

Firstly to all, thank you for the information and advice.

 

As I could source a battery rather quickly and this one appears to be on its way out, it seems like a ‘quick fix’ would be to get another battery for my current setup. I could have the battery delivered within a few days allowing me to get out and use my handbike with the knowledge that I’m not going to have a breakdown 20km away from home in a woodland/field. To note, this is a temporary fix for a month or two with a reconditioned battery being available for circa £100.

 

Although the voltage meter hasn’t yet arrived (Purchased from eBay), I have a volt display on the lcd screen on my current setup. So with a little faith I went out on a trail I know this morning and crossed my fingers for some luck. To my surprise I made it on the 19km route with no power loss. I spent the time monitoring the readout and noticed a drop from 42v to 38v after the hour long ride. At times under load it dropped to 36v near the end of the ride going up an incline. I fully expected it to die on me but it Voltage drop I would presume highlights the battery condition not being great. Moreso the lcd screen indicated 3/5 bars of battery left with the battery indicator sub menu on the screen stating 60% at the end of the ride. This has always been around the amount of battery use on this particular route. I also paid attention to the amount of watts I was using upon pulling off, on various small gradients and when cruising along. At no time did it constantly draw 700w! Cruising was circa 100-300w and inclined was a variation up to around 550w. the gradients weren’t significant on this route.

 

So my beginners understanding is the drop in voltage indicates the battery isn’t healthy and needs resolving. The long term solution is to change from a speed control to a current control Setup. But for now, getting a replacement battery is the “quick fix” whilst speccing up a new controller etc.... yes/no/Matt your talking Rubbish.

Matt your current hub motor looks like a 500w geared hub probably a Bafang from the glimpse in the pic of it, a 48v 1000w D/D hub won't be an improvement tbh over it.

 

Some more pics of it and any writing on the motor would be useful then we can see what it's speed rating might be.

 

The 500w if a geared hub at least it is a more user friendly motor being that if you had to it will be rideable with low gearing should you have a power issue as you have at the mo, a D/D hub would be dead in the water. The 500w hub will easily take a 30a controller but again you will need a very good battery at that current.

Your current battery 13000mah/13ah just hasn't got the required continuous discharge rate to cope with the 22a continuous current it is seeing at the moment, as I mentioned earlier I am 99% certain it is using low current power 5a Samsung 26F 2600mah cells which are now past it.

I had the same cells in a pair of batteries used on a 250w hub kit delivering 17a max current and they lost about 25% range over a 18 - 24 month period as I too would max out the speed and current, my max current use would have been about 450 - 500w so less then your 700w you are seeing. My batteries never saw voltage self discharge after charging they did remain in a usable fair condition unlike yours which are failing as the max charge voltage and self discharge of < 41v is showing.

 

the only writing/info on the hub is on the attached photos. I’m more than happy to take more from other angles is required?

The slower speed wiil pull more torque and current longer, the higher speed is near the cut off if legal so as the speed rises the current backs off.

 

The suggested 1000w kit is and probably will not feel as good as the current hub motor as the motor will be a D/D drive hub and not ideal for slow speed or inclines unless one highly specs the electronics at a greater cost, power comes with a price.

Ideally you will need to look for a more substantial controller 30- 40a out put and then a an ever costly battery able to out put an the 40a continuous using cells capable of a much higher discharge when in parallel so that they are not stressed.

 

All you can do is research and read, the Endless sphere forum in the US is a massive data base of info once you find your way around the massive thread index. For any powerful hub/motor the battery is key which means cost.

Thank you for the information, my feeling is to stick with the current hub, it gets a bit noisy after half an hour but would be a,lot easier than trying to source a 24” hub/wheel without having to get a hub laced to a rim. The idea of going for a substantial controller and costly battery doesn’t rally appeal. My current setup has been awesome for 3 years and really I just want the reliability and effectiveness of what I have. If by changing the controller and screen for a KT setup I get the advantage of longevity in battery health and PAS levels then I think that’s a fair gain for the cost. Would you agree?

Hi Matt,

Been reading this with interest, that and doing 5 different installations is the way I've learnt. Each one throws up it's own curiosities.

On the battery, it does sound like yours is well on it's way out. If you put a new battery on the existing controller it will work but be under the stress of constant 700w demand. This is a nominal current draw of 20A, so a new battery would, ideally, be capable of delivering 1.5 times this as a maximum, in order to minimise stress on your new battery. Yosepower have been a good supplier for me - shipping from a German wharehouse there was no duty to pay.

 

Think I might do it the other way round, change controller/display set up, get it all running nicely, then source a new battery.

 

I have an Ezee hub and this is speed control, so I run two batteries in parrallel to feed it. It's not subtle but it does get me round the Welsh hills. Here's the odd thing (mathmatically at least). Pas 2 gives me around 11-12mph on the flat. Pas3 will give me 14-15mph on the flat. So on a given journey (let's say 10 miles), as the system always runs at max current, then I will use less battery in pas3 than I will in pas2 as the journey takes less time. I KNOW, bonkers right?

In practice (I've done the same journeys in different settings) the best that can be said is that it doesn't seem to use more capacity in the higher setting.

Hi Ben,

 

thank you for pitching in and assisting. I find the dual battery setup fascinating and that PAS3 is more economical, it’s definitely what I would like to to long term. especially if it uses less battery which means the range I can travel will go up! Also thank you for the info on the battery supplier, I’m sure this will come in handy

Going by what you say about the wattage output today then it sounds like I might be wrong and you may have a current controller, the brand is Lishui. Though I'm surprised as you said in a previous post you saw 700w in PAS 1 which made me think it was a speed controller.

 

The hub for looks like a Bafang one or if not a very good clone, the motor noise might be down to lack of grease inside which is easy to remedy.

Does the noise sound mechanical or electrical ?

 

A 500w geared hub as you have will take 25/30a so will be more user friendly and cos effective then a D/D hub.

Going by what you say about the wattage output today then it sounds like I might be wrong and you may have a current controller, the brand is Lishui. Though I'm surprised as you said in a previous post you saw 700w in PAS 1 which made me think it was a speed controller.

 

The hub for looks like a Bafang one or if not a very good clone, the motor noise might be down to lack of grease inside which is easy to remedy.

Does the noise sound mechanical or electrical ?

 

A 500w geared hub as you have will take 25/30a so will be more user friendly and cos effective then a D/D hub.

I have no clue if it is current or speeed controller. I have seen it at 700w in PAS1 when going up steep inclines for certain. However it doesn’t typically go much last 300w when in false flats or general use.

the motor noise is sounds more mechanical, typically after 30minutes use. How do I regrease inside? And with regards to the vw,Stev drop off, would you predict it’s the battery and worthies purchasing a replacement as per my other message?

 

I so grateful for your assistance, to everyone‘s! Definitely will be reading More about this throughout the bday. It’s fast becoming a big interest of mine!

My KT's even the 25a one only gives me about 150/160w max in PAS 1 (even climbing) , so to see 700w I would in my eyes say it is speed control.

I had/have an LSW on the Bafang BPM motor wheel kit, though no W output on the screen each PAS level of five I could feel the different current in each one.

 

To open them it is easier with the wheel removed , if need be take pics of the process as you go along.

On the LHS you need to undo the inner axle nut/bearing seal retainer, there should be a washer and a clear rubber seal behind it protecting the sealed pressed in bearing.

Flip it over to the RHS and if need be remove the gears, undo the six outer cover plate screws, the insides should then separate and be able to remove as one (sometimes you may have to tap the LHS axle with a rubber mallet or wooden block).

 

The planetary gears and casing gearing should be accessible now and whether or not greasing is needed, if dried or contaminated clean it out and replace with grease (I use Dark Grey Castrol Moly grease and a good handful or a copious slathering ) make sure the grease isn't petroleum based other wise the nylon gears will become damaged/distorted.

Whilst cleaning up inspect the general condition of said planetary nylon gear condition, it they look warn or chewed replace them, Individual gears can be replaced (you will have to measure them , teeth count , shaft size and o/a outer size, thickness etc,etc) as they are usually held by a circlip but I would change all three if you have to change any.

 

Whilst also a part axle will have a central bearing check this for hand rotation roughness/play and replace if so also check the LHS side end case bearing .

The bearing will lever off the axle using opposing levers as you go around the bearing, the end case one with drive out with a suitable drift like a piece of tube or better still a suitable size socket for a ratchet socket set.

My KT's even the 25a one only gives me about 150/160w max in PAS 1 (even climbing) , so to see 700w I would in my eyes say it is speed control.

I had/have an LSW on the Bafang BPM motor wheel kit, though no W output on the screen each PAS level of five I could feel the different current in each one.

 

To open them it is easier with the wheel removed , if need be take pics of the process as you go along.

On the LHS you need to undo the inner axle nut/bearing seal retainer, there should be a washer and a clear rubber seal behind it protecting the sealed pressed in bearing.

Flip it over to the RHS and if need be remove the gears, undo the six outer cover plate screws, the insides should then separate and be able to remove as one (sometimes you may have to tap the LHS axle with a rubber mallet or wooden block).

 

The planetary gears and casing gearing should be accessible now and whether or not greasing is needed, if dried or contaminated clean it out and replace with grease (I use Dark Grey Castrol Moly grease and a good handful or a copious slathering ) make sure the grease isn't petroleum based other wise the nylon gears will become damaged/distorted.

Whilst cleaning up inspect the general condition of said planetary nylon gear condition, it they look warn or chewed replace them, Individual gears can be replaced (you will have to measure them , teeth count , shaft size and o/a outer size, thickness etc,etc) as they are usually held by a circlip but I would change all three if you have to change any.

 

Whilst also a part axle will have a central bearing check this for hand rotation roughness/play and replace if so also check the LHS side end case bearing .

The bearing will lever off the axle using opposing levers as you go around the bearing, the end case one with drive out with a suitable drift like a piece of tube or better still a suitable size socket for a ratchet socket set.

Thanks for the info, I’ll order some appropriate grease and follow the instructions (Then report back on it). I cannot thank you enough with regards to all the advice and£ information you’ve given me. I’ll be ordering a battery first thing Monday and then spec a new controller/display. My Feeling is that the New battery will rectify the situation but isn’t a long term solution. The battery is 3 years old however having a current control setup with KT controller seems the most reliable route to go. I’ll stick around the 750w setup as it provide good levels of assist vs price. I’d hopefully run two batteries with this new setup to so I can increase range. Does this seem like a good solution overall (short and long term solutions)?

 

thanks as ever

For the new battery spec one that is 30a contiuous so it can cope with demand of the old controller if you are going to still use it in the short term.

With two batteries the best use for them is to parallel them together by making up a parallel lead, then they act as one and will discharge uniformly. They will still be 36v or 48v but the capacity and discharge current increases by adding each to the other so for example, if you had 25 & 30a discharge batteries in P they would have a 55a discharge rate and would run with less stress on the cells. Capacity wise say a 13ah and 15ah they will run as a 28ah battery so will hold a higher voltage level for longer and overall voltage sag will be less.

 

The critical bit when paralleling batteries is they must be disconnected and charged separately as each will have it's own BMS, when connecting them in parallel they must be at near the same voltage charge. That means they should ideally be within 0.025v so as to reduce voltage equalisation/heat exchange, the heat that can be generated is immense. The wider the voltage difference current will flow in nano seconds, extreme heat is caused by current flow from widely varying voltages when connected.

For the new battery spec one that is 30a contiuous so it can cope with demand of the old controller if you are going to still use it in the short term.

With two batteries the best use for them is to parallel them together by making up a parallel lead, then they act as one and will discharge uniformly. They will still be 36v or 48v but the capacity and discharge current increases by adding each to the other so for example, if you had 25 & 30a discharge batteries in P they would have a 55a discharge rate and would run with less stress on the cells. Capacity wise say a 13ah and 15ah they will run as a 28ah battery so will hold a higher voltage level for longer and overall voltage sag will be less.

 

The critical bit when paralleling batteries is they must be disconnected and charged separately as each will have it's own BMS, when connecting them in parallel they must be at near the same voltage charge. That means they should ideally be within 0.025v so as to reduce voltage equalisation/heat exchange, the heat that can be generated is immense. The wider the voltage difference current will flow in nano seconds, extreme heat is caused by current flow from widely varying voltages when connected.

 

thanks for the information.

I have decided not to bother getting a replacement battery and just go for a totally new setup, as close to a “plug and play” system as possible. It seems your can’t get a decent battery in the uk with a reasonable amount of mAh at the moment that is a dolphin type configuration.

anyway, I have specc’ed to the best of my ability anshstem, without a replacement motor and have attached a photo before purchasing. Is this correct? my theory with a plug and play is that even someone inexperienced like me should be able to plug it together and get it working!

 

thoughts?

You can't use item #3 , the Bafang cable extender isn't compatible with the Julet WP systems, the connectors are Higo WP and all though they will mate and fit Julet the pin outs wired different.

 

Any item (with the exception of a Bafang hub motor)with Bafang or Higo named in the description will not be compatible except for Bafang motor kits with Bafang controllers.

Edited June 8, 20205 yr by Nealh

You can't use item #3 , the Bafang cable extender isn't compatible with the Julet WP systems, the connectors are Higo WP and all though they will mate and fit Julet the pin outs wired different.

 

Any item (with the exception of a Bafang hub motor)with Bafang or Higo named in the description will not be compatible except for Bafang motor kits with Bafang controllers.

Thansk! I’ll need to extend the connection from the controller to the motor, the display and throttle. I was hoping I could Purchase extender cables to fit. s everything else is ok, just the; throttle extension? Battery is suitable? Can you advise on the cable?

 

thanks as ever. I’ll just have to wait till shipment from China arrives. Literally ready to purchase right away

Edited June 8, 20205 yr by Matt hignett

You can buy them if you look at the description for the right item.

http://www.topbikekit.com/12-extend-cable-ebike-waterproof-cable-60cm-for-meter-and-throttle-p-903.html

 

The motor connector you chose is correct.

 

Battery looks good , it uses the 3200mah Panny cell, the bigger brother of the 2900mah PF cell both rated 10a. It performs much the same as the PF with slightly less sag, capacity is a wee bit more.

Edited June 8, 20205 yr by Nealh

You can buy them if you look at the description for the right item.

http://www.topbikekit.com/12-extend-cable-ebike-waterproof-cable-60cm-for-meter-and-throttle-p-903.html

 

The motor connector you chose is correct.

 

Battery looks good , it uses the 3200mah Panny cell, the bigger brother of the 2900mah PF cell both rated 10a. It performs much the same as the PF with slightly less sag capacity is a wee bit more.

Brilliant, thanks for this. My issue is the display is , in essence 1metre away from the thumb throttle due to the type of handbike I own. If uou look at the attached phot closely you can see the display on one handlebar and the throtttle on the other under the gear selector.. The controller box in attached To the backrest and the battery on the rear rack.My fear is the cabke you’ve highlighted, by the photos, isn’t long enough to selerste the screen that far away from the throttle. Maybe I could buy two and run them Separately to the Controller ?

In the second pic you have drunk all the H.

 

You can buy individual Julet to Julet extender cables for individual items so only one 1T2 cable is needed and run an extender to each connector. Select the colour coded Julet end you need Yellow one for throttle and Green for display, you can buy M/M, F/F or M/F ended cables.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000341063568.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.1d6922e4ZDVxbQ&algo_pvid=7668d477-a2b1-4ee7-9b1f-472058ee5d28&algo_expid=7668d477-a2b1-4ee7-9b1f-472058ee5d28-3&btsid=0ab6f8ad15916602767448313e6a87&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

Edited June 8, 20205 yr by Nealh

Matt you might want to consider buying the Julet 1T4 cable instead of the 1T2 one so that you can fit a brake cutout /kill switch in case of throttle malfunction. With out the cut out if a fault develops then the throttle can go open and then when you try and stop by using the brakes only the high current can/will blow the controller.

If a throttle does go open once under control it can then be unplugged until repairs are made, It has happened to me twice once was an intermittent wire break/connection and the other was down to moisture tracks causing interference.

Both times the bike has wanted to rear up and disappear luckily for me I was able both times to use the brake cut outs to stall the electronics.

In the second pic you have drunk all the H.

 

You can buy individual Julet to Julet extender cables for individual items so only one 1T2 cable is needed and run an extender to each connector. Select the colour coded Julet end you need Yellow one for throttle and Green for display, you can buy M/M, F/F or M/F ended cables.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000341063568.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.1d6922e4ZDVxbQ&algo_pvid=7668d477-a2b1-4ee7-9b1f-472058ee5d28&algo_expid=7668d477-a2b1-4ee7-9b1f-472058ee5d28-3&btsid=0ab6f8ad15916602767448313e6a87&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

Ah the H was consumed in the summer post that ride, the latter photo was in December just gone, after discovering a new trail off an old railway line, that was followed by a bacon sarnie and obligatory coffee!

 

thanks so much for the extension cable info, that’s idea. I’ll update the spec and post tomorrow once it’s ready for purchasing.

Matt you might want to consider buying the Julet 1T4 cable instead of the 1T2 one so that you can fit a brake cutout /kill switch in case of throttle malfunction. With out the cut out if a fault develops then the throttle can go open and then when you try and stop by using the brakes only the high current can/will blow the controller.

If a throttle does go open once under control it can then be unplugged until repairs are made, It has happened to me twice once was an intermittent wire break/connection and the other was down to moisture tracks causing interference.

Both times the bike has wanted to rear up and disappear luckily for me I was able both times to use the brake cut outs to stall the electronics.

Noted. I have typically used the powe on/off button for any issues such as the aforementione. It’s very nicely placed and in easy reach. I was presuming the ee screen I specc’ed would have an associated power on/off button? If not then I will definitely need a kill switch!

Instinct for me is to grab the brake which is quicker then fumbling for an on/off button esp if I'm wearing gloves.