It's a direct drive motor John, and some of these are wired with two internal modes to give the two powers. It's legal in the low powered mode but very illegal in the high power one.

 

.

 

I think Xipi have it covered in their Error & Omissions page.

 

Its buyer beware!

 

With a 1000 Watt electric motor it is illegal in most countries including UK and Europe even if the rider sticks to the speed limit!

 

The only bike (pedelec) that is legal in Europe above 15mph is the Kalkhoff S Class Proconnect because that is the only bike that has passed the relevant EU Standard. This bike is legal, but the rider must keep within the law.

I think Xipi have it covered in their Error & Omissions page.

 

Its buyer beware!

 

With a 1000 Watt electric motor it is illegal in most countries including UK and Europe even if the rider sticks to the speed limit!

 

The only bike (pedelec) that is legal in Europe above 15mph is the Kalkhoff S Class Proconnect because that is the only bike that has passed the relevant EU Standard. This bike is legal, but the rider must keep within the law.

 

But it is a switched mode motor. In the lower switched mode it is 250 watt rated and can only assist to 15 mph. As long as the rider is in that mode on the road it would appear to be legal since it's not able to propel the bike to illegal speeds.

.

But it is a switched mode motor. In the lower switched mode it is 250 watt rated and can only assist to 15 mph. As long as the rider is in that mode on the road it would appear to be legal since it's not able to propel the bike to illegal speeds.

.

 

Yes, to me it's just the same as a lot of bikes with a de-restrict button (e.g. Wisper, Mistral), only this de-restrict is potentially just a lot faster.

 

Looking at their webpage, I see they are using Lead Acid batteries!?!!? To me this looks like any number of the 1000W kits you can buy on ebay. Dubious.

Not all standard bikes at Presteigne...

 

http://www.beale.plus.com/Miscellaneous/Tour__4_.jpg

http://www.beale.plus.com/Miscellaneous/Tour__5_.jpg

http://www.beale.plus.com/Miscellaneous/Tour__6_.jpg

Edited May 14, 200916 yr by bode

Other interesting sights

 

http://www.beale.plus.com/Miscellaneous/Tour__18_.jpg

 

http://www.beale.plus.com/Miscellaneous/Tour__21_.jpg

But it is a switched mode motor. In the lower switched mode it is 250 watt rated and can only assist to 15 mph. As long as the rider is in that mode on the road it would appear to be legal since it's not able to propel the bike to illegal speeds.

.

 

EU (and UK) legal requirements apply to the bike. A bike fitted with a motor rated 1000 watt would be classed as an electric motor bike whether or not it was switched to 250 watt. On EU certified s-class pedelecs the motor will not exceed 250 watt therefor it is a pedelec. The speed difference between an s-class pedelec and other pedelecs being down to the speed regulator parameter settings.

 

Legal electric bicycles/pedelecs have their maximum speed regulated to 15mph. If the regulator is defeated by any means then it is no longer legal.

 

It is quite possible that a pedelec with an electric motor that exceeds 250 watt (without insurance/tax disk required for motor bikes) would be deemed to be illegal if used on the road without the battery connected!

 

The s-class pedelec by design (certified by EU, e.g. TUV Germany) is still legal, but it too would become illegal if it was modified so that its speed exceeded its class. The emphasis is placed on the s-class pedelec rider: If the rider exceeds the speed limit (or other laws e.g. not displaying an insurance disc if required by national law) they could be prosecuted for the offence comitted, but providing the bike is unmodified the bike is still legal.

Then the law is an ass....Nothing new there:rolleyes:

 

Personally I am not interested in excesive speed on a bike. it is torque/grunt I need to get my 17 stone up hills;) I can not see why a restricted more powerful bike cannot be legalised.

 

I have mentioned this before.....a colleague has bought a V12 6.5 litre AM capable of god knows what speed but the LAW says 70mph.

 

So why can't we have more efficient/powerful/restricted and GREEN E bikes

 

EU (and UK) legal requirements apply to the bike. A bike fitted with a motor rated 1000 watt would be classed as an electric motor bike whether or not it was switched to 250 watt. On EU certified s-class pedelecs the motor will not exceed 250 watt therefor it is a pedelec. The speed difference between an s-class pedelec and other pedelecs being down to the speed regulator parameter settings.

 

Legal electric bicycles/pedelecs have their maximum speed regulated to 15mph. If the regulator is defeated by any means then it is no longer legal.

 

But not in practice!

 

A very high proportion of the e-bikes on the market have their speed regulated by the controller to a maximum assist of 25kph/15mph, that easily tweaked, often with a simple link unplugging of an accessible connector. Their motors have continuous power capability of up to three times the EU continuous maximum, and almost none conform to that maximum! Your statement that they are restricted to 250 watt maximum output is completely wrong as any rolling road test will show. That includes the S class bikes.

 

There is no difference in switched mode motors where the same two conditions are possible. Both are illegal according to the letter of the law. They are not treated as illegal in industry practice, and the switched mode motor in question here may be more fully compliant if it's restricted to a 250 watt output limit in its lower mode as claimed, something not true of most of our "legal" bikes when restricted.

.

Edited May 16, 200916 yr by flecc

But not in practice!

 

Their motors have continuous power capability of up to three times the EU continuous maximum, and almost none conform to that maximum! Your statement that they are restricted to 250 watt maximum output is completely wrong as any rolling road test will show. That includes the S class bikes.

 

.

 

In practice the motors might well have an apparent continuous power capability up to 3 times the EU requirements, this is a natural physical limit which will vary between motors. An electric motor is rated by its temperature-limited power. This nominal power is what is stamped on the motor: 250 watt is the limit the EU set for electric bicycles/pedelecs, higher than this it will be classed as something else e.g. e-motorbike.

An electric motor having a nominal rating of 250 watt can carry an overload (useful in pedelec application for carrying riders up hills against an on-coming breeze) for a short period without overheating.

Better quality motors will have a superior overload/time characteristic due directly to their insulation (having a higher maximum allowable temperature) and this will be reflected in the price.

I know from the Pedelecs Forum that (legal) electric motors for bicycles have their power rating stamped on them, have they got a class marking?

 

There is no difference in switched mode motors where the same two conditions are possible. Both are illegal according to the letter of the law. They are not treated as illegal in industry practice, and the switched mode motor in question here may be more fully compliant if it's restricted to a 250 watt output limit in its lower mode as claimed, something not true of most of our "legal" bikes when restricted.

.

 

Industry practice complies with EU law for pedelecs when a nominal <= 250 watt electric motor is used so they are not illegal. A nominal > 250 watt electric motor is not legal as far as EU pedelec law is concerned even if it is permanently infallibly switched to (an apparent) <= 250 watt!

 

If the letter of the electric bicycle/pedelec law is followed, the UK electric bicycle trade is non compliant with it when it sells electric bicycles/pedelecs exceeding 200 watt nominal power with a throttle!

 

Buyer be ware!

Beware of what? As mentioned before, such distinctions in the law are practically uninforceable at the consumer level, as each individual's bike would need to be tested seperately, incurring massive cost implications. It seems to me that the powers that be are content to turn a myopic if not blind eye, as long as people don't completely take the Mickey.

 

I agree with what someone else said (maybe not even in this thread - sorry, too lazy to look), about cars that can drive at speeds vastly exceeding the legal limit - the owness is on the driver/rider to behave sensibly. You could say that the difference is that cars require a licence & registration, but you could also say that the law effectively licences anybody to ride an e-bike. In any case, there will be no clarification untill someone appears before a court, having done something monumentally stupid, may that day be a long time comming!

Beware of what? As mentioned before, such distinctions in the law are practically uninforceable at the consumer level, as each individual's bike would need to be tested seperately, incurring massive cost implications. It seems to me that the powers that be are content to turn a myopic if not blind eye, as long as people don't completely take the Mickey.

 

I agree with what someone else said (maybe not even in this thread - sorry, too lazy to look), about cars that can drive at speeds vastly exceeding the legal limit - the owness is on the driver/rider to behave sensibly. You could say that the difference is that cars require a licence & registration, but you could also say that the law effectively licences anybody to ride an e-bike. In any case, there will be no clarification untill someone appears before a court, having done something monumentally stupid, may that day be a long time comming!

 

Which, IMO, means that there's no problem with people doing a few MPH over the 15 MPH assist limit with the motor still helping them - I can't see anyone on a Wisper in 'off-road' mode ever having a problem. It's just not obvious enough to a casual observer to attract unwelcome attention. However, if a derestricted e-bike is seen doing 30 MPH on the flat with the rider apparently free-wheeling, I think that might well be a different matter.

 

Human nature being what it is, I suspect it's only a matter of time before somebody gets 'nicked' doing something like that. Also as the police become more aware of e-bikes, they are likely to get to know the likely culprits, just as an old Ford Pop probably won't be doing a ton along the motorway, but a Porsche might well be....

 

Rog.

 

I know from the Pedelecs Forum that (legal) electric motors for bicycles have their power rating stamped on them, have they got a class marking?

 

Industry practice complies with EU law for pedelecs when a nominal <= 250 watt electric motor is used so they are not illegal. A nominal > 250 watt electric motor is not legal as far as EU pedelec law is concerned even if it is permanently infallibly switched to (an apparent) <= 250 watt!

 

I'm afraid you appear to be reading documents rather than knowing the actual position.

 

1) Hardly any e-bike motors have their power rating stamped on them.

 

2) Industry practice does not comply, it's as I've said.

 

3) Overload does not come into it on the great majority of our motors. They will run at well over the legal limit without overheating as long as current is supplied, i.e. continuous maximum power.

 

4) I have measured these powers and so have other technically proficient members.

 

5) The actual continuous hill climb performance of many bikes without pedal effort applied (just spinning in pedelec mode) is irrefutably far, far beyond what could be possible with 250 Watts of power applied.

 

6) The only time I've seen powers widely correspond to the law was with the British 200 Watt limit law at the very beginning of e-bikes. It was easier to comply then since the assist speed limit was 12 mph, but even with that benefit the bikes were pathetically weak. The industry sensibly reacted accordingly and has done so ever since to varying degrees.

 

No matter how many circular arguments you produce, mixing bits of fact with bits of law to try to support your position, these are the facts. The civil service, politicians (and presumably yourself?) can be safely left to read their legal documents and apply a three monkeys view in respect of the practice. In here it's the real world facts that count and members buying an e-bike need to know that the 250 Watts rating is just a legal nicety, and that bikes are available with a wide range of actual continuous maximum powers.

 

Waffling about what should be does not help them in their choice, nor does the alarmist warning to beware.

.

Edited May 17, 200916 yr by flecc

Some pictures of the parade

 

Just got back from holiday. We attended Presteigne on the Sunday and I would like to say a massive thank you to the organisers it was a brilliant event.

 

Here are some pictures I took of the Parade.

 

Tour de Presteigne Parade - a set on Flickr

But not in practice!

 

There is no difference in switched mode motors where the same two conditions are possible. Both are illegal according to the letter of the law. They are not treated as illegal in industry practice, and the switched mode motor in question here may be more fully compliant if it's restricted to a 250 watt output limit in its lower mode as claimed, something not true of most of our "legal" bikes when restricted.

.

 

Flecc,

 

I don't have any knowledge of electric bicycles other than reading what information I can get from the internet in the hope that I can purchase an electric bicycle, pedelec or kit that will suit my needs.

 

1) e-bike motors might not have a power rating stamped on them, but the e-bike manufacturer will have had to disclose assurances including motor rating before gaining EU approval for the pedelec to be sold throughout the EU.

 

2)

Industry practice does not comply .

This could well be true, in which case the EU may take action against the manufacturer importer or supplier.

 

 

3) Unless the electric motor is 100% efficient, it will produce heat. When pedelec assistance is restricted the heat produced will be within the electric motors parameters therefor overload will be unlikely. Operating an electric bike outwith the design parameters will result in the electric motor producing more heat and this will lead to the motor having a shorter life span.

 

4) Your measured powers will be correct. The EU certification will have been granted without 3rd party conformity tests. The manufacturer/importer assurances are enough for EU officials to approve.

 

5)

The actual continuous hill climb performance of many bikes without pedal effort applied (just spinning in pedelec mode) is irrefutably far, far beyond what could be possible with 250 Watts of power applied. .

 

 

This is a bonus for the purchaser of an electric bicycle/pedelec because the onus is on the manufacturer/importer/supplier.

 

6)

The only time I've seen powers widely correspond to the law was with the British 200 Watt limit law at the very beginning of e-bikes. It was easier to comply then since the assist speed limit was 12 mph, but even with that benefit the bikes were pathetically weak. The industry sensibly reacted accordingly and has done so ever since to varying degrees..

 

 

I think the industry is just taking advantage of the way the EU operates. Historically Uk (national) regulations were not as prescriptive as other EU countries (national) regulations, this allowed more freedom in design but the final product had meet much stricter tests before being approved suitable for sale.

 

In here it's the real world facts that count and members buying an e-bike need to know that the 250 Watts rating is just a legal nicety, and that bikes are available with a wide range of actual continuous maximum powers. .

 

 

I agree. Any legal problem with an unmodified e-bike rests with the manufacturer, importer or supplier.

 

What do you think the position would be for e-bike kits e.g. The Cytronex Kit?

Just got back from holiday. We attended Presteigne on the Sunday and I would like to say a massive thank you to the organisers it was a brilliant event.

 

Here are some pictures I took of the Parade.

Yes, it was a great event; thanks for the pictures (glad that there were one or two in which I could see myself).

 

1) e-bike motors might not have a power rating stamped on them, but the e-bike manufacturer will have had to disclose assurances including motor rating before gaining EU approval for the pedelec to be sold throughout the EU.

 

That's right, contrary to the common misunderstanding it's the e-bike and not the motor which should have a prominent plate on it stating the power rating and weight of the bike. Since none of them have this you can see why I was insistent that the industry doesn't comply, quite the opposite in fact, both in the plating requirement and powers. As one member with some relevant experience in this field remarked, the power is whatever the manufacturer wants to say it is!

 

 

I think the industry is just taking advantage of the way the EU operates.

 

I think this is just a matter of necessity. It's no exaggeration to say that the e-market would be very seriously damaged and possibly destroyed if power limits were enforced. The only bike motor I know that unquestionably complies is useless on hills. As one reviewer put it, "it only has the power to pull itself up the hill, leaving the rider to do as much as they would on an unpowered bike".

 

 

What do you think the position would be for e-bike kits e.g. The Cytronex Kit?

 

I think this could be legally problematic. As I remarked above, it's the bike that is supposed to conform, so how does a home construction comply? Once again at present, it's a matter of the market doing it's own thing and avoiding any attention to the law.

 

None of this questionable compliance really matters while the market is as small as it is, but if the market ever becomes a substantial multiple of it's present level, these issues will have to be addressed.

 

We have a microcosm of this with pedelec regulations, where we should have been complying with EU regulations for many years but that was ignored. Now the Royal Mail Post Office announce an intention to buy some 14,000 e-bikes, the compliance enforcement is now intended and in hand.

.

Edited May 18, 200916 yr by flecc

I think this could be legally problematic. As I remarked above, it's the bike that is supposed to conform, so how does a home construction comply? Once again at present, it's a matter of the market doing it's own thing and avoiding any attention to the law.

.

 

Providing the Nano Motor that is used has a CE mark it shows that it meets EU approval even if the CE mark was issued just for the motor meeting EMC requirements.

 

No-more-hills/Modern Times are on a legal sticky wicket if they supply a modified bike or kit within the EU without the CE mark.

 

Other manufacturers/suppliers/distributors of complete e-bicycles/pedelecs will have CE mark on the bike which covers all the components used.

 

Are any owners of Cytronex equiped bicycles able to verify if there is a CE mark stamped on the Nano motor?

You have to be careful here. You can't just assemble CE marked components and then say the assembly meets the requirements.

 

There are at least 2 pitfalls. One is that the legal framework may require the final assembler to go through some procedures to show compliance. This may be a simple paperwork process or may require testing.

 

The other is that the act of assembly may make the CE mark on the component invalid. This occurs if the component was assessed for a different function. So you can't, for instance, take a motor that was CE marked for use in a food mixer and put it on a bike and assume its OK.

 

Basically, the whole idea of CE marking components is pretty meaningless. Manufacturers/assemblers should ignore the sticker and ask for the underlying data.

 

Nick

So you can't, for instance, take a motor that was CE marked for use in a food mixer and put it on a bike and assume its OK.

 

 

Nick

 

Well, that'll put one or two manufacturers out of business for a start....

 

Rog.

Post Office e-bikes

 

Now the Royal Mail Post Office announce an intention to buy some 14,000 e-bikes...

I have been trying to find details of this story, but have been unable to track down any recent information. Has it been officially confirmed?

I think it's still in the trials stage of a number of e-vehicles, and I've heard nothing further. Given the various troubles of the Post Office over the last couple of years and some recent political indecision on it's future (privatisation of parts etc), I don't think they are in any state to make such a large capital expenditure decision at the moment.

 

Still, they've just declared a profit, first for a while, so maybe they'll get it back on track shortly.

.

You have to be careful here. You can't just assemble CE marked components and then say the assembly meets the requirements.

 

There are at least 2 pitfalls. One is that the legal framework may require the final assembler to go through some procedures to show compliance. This may be a simple paperwork process or may require testing.

 

The other is that the act of assembly may make the CE mark on the component invalid. This occurs if the component was assessed for a different function. So you can't, for instance, take a motor that was CE marked for use in a food mixer and put it on a bike and assume its OK.

 

Basically, the whole idea of CE marking components is pretty meaningless. Manufacturers/assemblers should ignore the sticker and ask for the underlying data.

 

Nick

 

Tiberius,

 

It is as you say, the CE mark just gives an indication that the EU has approved the item on the basis it meets the safety requirements for documented application(s). The lack of the CE mark means it has not been assessed and therfor does not meet the criteria to be sold through the EU market place under EU legislation.

 

The downside of kits are that the CE approval for the bicycle would also be invalidated and it would probably invalidate the bicycle warranty in the process!

 

With the Cytronex Kit not being ready until Autumn and the lack of clarity on the legal status of Cytronex, I have now made up my mind to purchase a Kakhoff Proconnect from 50 Cycles. Hopefully I will be on two wheels again before half the year has vanished!

.... the CE mark just gives an indication that the EU has approved the item

 

Hi,

 

Not quite so. There is not actually a system by which the EU approves anything. For some products the approval is done by designated bodies, for some products it is self declaration by manufacturers or importers. There are even product categories for which the question of self declaration versus test house testing depends on arcane considerations that hardly anyone can understand.

 

So, a lot of manufacturers err on the side of caution and have everything tested. And a lot of manufacturers err on the side of simplicity and self declare.

 

My advice would be to hire a good consultant.

 

Nick

(day job: Consultant)

 

With the Cytronex Kit not being ready until Autumn and the lack of clarity on the legal status of Cytronex, I have now made up my mind to purchase a Kakhoff Proconnect from 50 Cycles. Hopefully I will be on two wheels again before half the year has vanished!

 

I'm surprised that your obsession with the various legality issues results from you only being a private purchaser, I thought you must have had some commercial interest.

 

Your decision still won't make you legal through, for as I've said, there are no legal e-bikes on the UK market and the one you've decided on is no different. Just for starters, it isn't fitted with a plate where it can easily be read, showing the manufacturer's name, the battery voltage and motor power output rating.

.

Edited May 20, 200916 yr by flecc

Your decision still won't make you legal through, for as I've said, there are no legal e-bikes on the UK market and the one you've decided on is no different. Just for starters, it isn't fitted with a plate where it can easily be read, showing the manufacturer's name, the battery voltage and motor power output rating.

.

 

I think I will change my mind?

 

If there are no legal e-bikes to be purchased I might as well opt for the Proconnect S if they are available in the UK? Who knows, one day when our politicians sort themselves out and get down to updating legislation I might be able to use it legally!

 

Where did the 50 Cycles link from this site go?