Hall sensor configuration possibly causing C3 error?

[Nealh]

Nealh I havn't tried rotating the crank to see if the P.A.S sensor will switch on power to the motor as I have had a limited focus on the fact that as soon as I twist the throttle I see the c3 error.
I am using the existing P.A.S that was on my bike when I bought it . It has 8 'poles' and I chose the c1 value of 5.

Is the PAS wire sequence correct with the KT wiring ?
Does the sensor have a Red led that blinks every time a magnet passes ?
It is possible the KT doesn't like the Powacycle PAS sensor at all as all the 5v lines use the same board track/output so might not necessarily mean the motor is at fault.

 

[Nealh]

Is my understand correct, that there are 2 ways of activating power supplied to the motor.

1. by twisting the throttle.

2. by revolving the crank so that the controller recognises that a signal is being produced .

Yes, plus a third option by shorting two pairs of the display supply wires.
The main two options are 99.99% the common option.

 

[crystaljohn]

O.k so I don't require a special tool to remove the pins, I'm certain I will be able to find something to depress the 'barb' on the pin to enable extraction.


Nealh. I was only trying what had been suggested, I don't understand what changing the C2 parameters actually does!

Re: the Hall sensors used. I can't recall of the top of my head the exact ones I used as I can't find the invoice. I did some research and found out that a commonly used sensor was a S------
I bought them from Farnell electronic component suppliers.

 

[crystaljohn]

1.does the PAS wire sequence correct with the KT wiring ?
2.Does the sensor have a Red led that blinks every time a magnet passes ?
3.It is possible the KT doesn't like the Powacycle PAS sensor at all as all the 5v lines use the same board track/output so might not necessarily mean the motor is at fault.


answer: 1. Not 100% confident now you have asked. I will go and check what I did. the bike is not in my house atm.

2. No,there is no Red light that blinks everytime a maget passes.

3. Not sure about this question. As I previously mentioned, I have been only concentrating on the fact that I get a C3 error whenever the throttle is activated- and the motor is not turning.

I tried turning the crank to see if this initiated a switch on of power to the motor but each time I have tried nothing has altered on the L.C.D display, and the motor hasn't turned on.

One thing I have just thought of is how many revolutions of the crank are necessary to start the process of switching on the motor?

 

[Nealh]

Not the motor halls, the PAS sensor also uses a hall sensor some are double halls.

 

[vfr400]

You shouldn't be testing these combos with PAS when you don't know that the PAS works. use the throttle and check that you have the correct throttle signal voltage first, otherwise it could be a long day.

 

[crystaljohn]

Not the motor halls, the PAS sensor also uses a hall sensor some are double halls.

All I know about the P.A.S is it is the same one that was on the bike that was working fine until the bike suddenly stopped working- no response from either the throttle or turning the crank.

You shouldn't be testing these combos with PAS when you don't know that the PAS works. use the throttle and check that you have the correct throttle signal voltage first, otherwise it could be a long day.

I checked the throttle was working as it should some time ago. I bought a new throttle as the o.e.m item fitted to my bike was a bit sloppy and worn, do I wanted to eliminate that from the equation.

 

[vfr400]

All I know about the P.A.S is it is the same one that was on the bike that was working fine until the bike suddenly stopped working- no response from either the throttle or turning the crank.

I checked the throttle was working as it should some time ago. I bought a new throttle as the o.e.m item fitted to my bike was a bit sloppy and worn, do I wanted to eliminate that from the equation.

With the throttle connected and the controller switched on, measure the voltage on the signal wire while you operate the throttle to make sure it goes from about 1.2v to 3.8v. Also, make sure you have the throttle enabled in the settings (zero start).

If everything is correct except the hall and phase combos, you should see something happening at the motor, like a noise, motor kicks a bit or something like that. If you get nothing but silence after two combos, it's probably time to look elsewhere for your solution.

 

[crystaljohn]

With the throttle connected and the controller switched on, measure the voltage on the signal wire while you operate the throttle to make sure it goes from about 1.2v to 3.8v. Also, make sure you have the throttle enabled in the settings (zero start).

I did this check last year, but I will retry it as a lot of water under the bridge since then!

 

[Nealh]

The PAS worked ok before because it was matched and suited to the old controller, it is possible the KT doesn't like it or the wire sequence is incorrect.

 

[crystaljohn]

I understand abut the PAS working before because it was matched and suited to the old controller.

I'm fairly certain I have wired it correctly. Red= +5v Black=ground White = signal ( I will check it again- as I have done many times before)

As you mention there is a possibility that the KT controller doesn't like my old PAS. I do have a new one that I purchased at the same time as the controller.
The reason I didn't fit it at the time was because a) I didn't have a tool to extract a crank. b) I couldn't work out how to fix the outer body of the PAS to the frame- there didn't appear to be a method of fixing it?

I have now learnt from this forum that I could temporarily connect up my 'New PAS' to the controller and spin it to simulate real pedalling.


However , I still believe that as the motor is not being activated by either the existing PAS, or the fact that when I twist the throttle I immediately get a C3 error, the issue is something else.


I have activated the throttle to work at anytime by setting P4 to zero.

And C4 to zero ( throttle works full power)

 

[crystaljohn]

I understand abut the PAS working before because it was matched and suited to the old controller.

I'm fairly certain I have wired it correctly. Red= +5v Black=ground White = signal ( I will check it again- as I have done many times before)

As you mention there is a possibility that the KT controller doesn't like my old PAS. I do have a new one that I purchased at the same time as the controller.
The reason I didn't fit it at the time was because a) I didn't have a tool to extract a crank. b) I couldn't work out how to fix the outer body of the PAS to the frame- there didn't appear to be a method of fixing it?

I have now learnt from this forum that I could temporarily connect up my 'New PAS' to the controller and spin itView attachment 37008 to simulate real pedalling.


However , I still believe that as the motor is not being activated by either the existing PAS, or the fact that when I twist the throttle I immediately get a C3 error, the issue is something else.


I have activated the throttle to work at anytime by setting P4 to zero.

And C4 to zero ( throttle works full power)

 

[crystaljohn]

I have just measured the Throttle voltages again

Throttle shut=0.82v
Throttle opened=3.58v

Something which I think is important to report, and that I haven't noticed before, is that with everything disconnected from the controller except the throttle and the power source, as soon as I twist the throttle I get the C3 error message. I think this is significant?

 

[vfr400]

I have just measured the Throttle voltages again

Throttle shut=0.82v
Throttle opened=3.58v

Something which I think is important to report, and that I haven't noticed before, is that with everything disconnected from the controller except the throttle and the power source, as soon as I twist the throttle I get the C3 error message. I think this is significant?

That's how it should work.

 

[Nealh]

near 5v between + & -, 4v or so when open.

 

[crystaljohn]

That's how it should work.

Ok. I presume that's because the controller isn't seeing the Hall senors it reports an error.

 

[Nealh]

Have you continuity checked the hall sensor wiring between motor and controller connection ?

 

[crystaljohn]

Numerous times Neil.

 

[jhruk]

Yes, plus a third option by shorting two pairs of the display supply wires.
The main two options are 99.99% the common option.

Another option is to try walk mode by pressing and holding the down button. Motor should then rotate slowly if it’s working.

 

[crystaljohn]

O.K yesterday I was altering the Phase/Hall configuration with the aid of the chart that Neil kindly posted up. I completed 24 of the possible configurations without a single sign of anything happening- no noise- no attempts of the wheel revolving or even trying to revolve.

It slowly dawned on me that something was probably not right, so on a hunch I measured the resistance accross the phase wires ( something I had done before in November -see post 23

Advice appreciated : New controller purchase

Glad to see your topic is still alive crystal john, (but not of course that you are experiencing problems)... :( Your old controller looks very similar to mine on the Probike and only 8 wires to/from the rear hub motor and is also 24v, and I have finally decided to follow vfr400 and Nealh's...

www.pedelecs.co.uk

)

It seems I have a short across the 3 phases!
Blue - Yellow= zero ohms, Yellow to Green =zero ohms, Green -Blue=zero

The last time I measured across the pairs of phase wires I recorded 18K ohms.

There is no visible damage , but something has happened since I last measured. Bearing in mind I have had the motor apart to replace the Hall sensors. The only thing I can think of is I used a needle and thread to lace up the sensor wiring after I had removed some of the existing threads that were holding them. I repeatedly pushed a needle under the loops of the coils to do this. I thought I exercised sufficient sensitivity to not so any damage to the coatings on the coil, but possibly I have damaged them.

I don't know what the measurments across the phase wiring should be , but I'm sure it shouldn't be zero ohms.

If I have damaged the motor windings somehow then it's beyond economic repair now and I must draw a line under it and put it down to experience.

I have put a deposit on a new Wisper Wayfarer bike and am hoping that it will be available soon, but I am so determined to finish what I started with this old Powacycle bike . I have put a lot of hours attempting to get it running and I idealy don't want to abandon it.

It would seem that a good way forward ; bearing in mind that I have a KT24/36SVPR-15A , and a relatively new 36v Silverfish battery, is to put a new motor Hub into the wheel.

Bearing in mind my limited ability to pedal due to Emphysema I was thinking of one of the Whoosh motor /hubs that Neil mentioned earlier in May when I was still trying to get this problem sorted

"or possibly convert a bike using one of Woosh's lower rpm wound high torque hub motor kits, one of these hubs will make better sense with it's pure low speed grunt for any hills or any minor incline where the user has limited ability whether health or disability related. "

My rear drop out is 170mm.

I would very much appreciate any advice on a way forward, even if it is a realistic 'abandon the project'

Thank to the people who have contributed to trying to help me out, I have learnt a lot and am keen to continue my learning.